Time to dump Rumsfeld?

[Driftwood]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5226957/?



Seriously. What does it take for Bush to dump this guy? I think Bush`s loyalty and committment to his friends is a great quality, but when does loyalty turn into blindness?

Can Rumsfeld BE any more baggage? *Chandler imitation*

[BishopMVP]

Number of interesting points.

It’s the first direct link between Rumsfeld and questionable though not violent treatment of prisoners in Iraq.

That's not what some people here have been claiming.

today, nearly one year after his capture, he’s still being held incommunicado. In fact, once the prisoner was returned to Iraq, the interrogations ceased because the prisoner was entirely lost in the system.

This is very disturbing, but if we don't even know where he is to conduct interrogations, how can MSNBC be certain he's being held incommunicado? And of course,

Pentagon officials still insist Rumsfeld acted legally, but admit it all depends on how you interpret the law.

Y'all knew that was coming, right?

[Driftwood]

I actually voted for Bush, and I think the man himself is a good, honest man...but why is he surrounding himself with such terribly immoral, dishonest, machiavellian people who arent even keeping the Pres in the loop?

Ashcroft, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz...these people are dangerous to American security.

[wig]

Originally Posted by Driftwood

I actually voted for Bush, and I think the man himself is a good, honest man...but why is he surrounding himself with such terribly immoral, dishonest, machiavellian people who arent even keeping the Pres in the loop?

Ashcroft, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz...these people are dangerous to American security.

Word

[QuikSand]

I don't know, really.

Just look at the people who debate this stuff here at FOFC. Has there been a single mind changed by any of this stuff? It just seems like an overwhelming share of people use whatever is in the news to simply reinforce their pre-existing opinions.

All the people who are calling for Rumsfeld's head are the same people who have already been calling for Bush's. Bush defenders all seem to be rallying behind their leader(s) regardless of what happens.

Polarizing politics makes the actual facts redundant, almost whatever they are.

[wig]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

All the people who are calling for Rumsfeld's head are the same people who have already been calling for Bush's. Bush defenders all seem to be rallying behind their leader(s) regardless of what happens.

Polarizing politics makes the actual facts redundant, almost whatever they are.

I'm a huge Bush fan, and I don't like Rumsfeld

[wig]

I hate Ashcroft, too

[HornedFrog Purple]

They have to pin some medals on him first.

[mordhiem]

Rumsfeld just comes off as the most slimey, wriggly SOB I've ever seen in government.

[Fritz]

Do any of you think that dropping or keeping Rumsfelt will have enough impact to alter the electoral college?

[HornedFrog Purple]

Here is some eerie stuff I posted here a long time ago and the general consensus was that it was nonsense. The verdict is still out.

(Written in November 2000)

http://www.newamericancentury.org/Re...asDefenses.pdf

6 contributors to this now hold key positions in President Bush's foreign and defense administration.

Paul Wolfowitz
Political science doctorate from University of Chicago and dean of the international relations program at Johns Hopkins University during the 1990s. Served in the Reagan State Department, moved to the Pentagon during the first Bush administration as undersecretary of defense for policy. Sworn in as deputy defense secretary in March 2001

John Bolton
Yale Law grad who worked in the Reagan administration as an assistant attorney general. Switched to the State Department in the first Bush administration as assistant secretary for international organization affairs. Sworn in as undersecretary of state for arms control and international security, May 2001.

Eliot Cohen
Harvard doctorate in government who taught at Harvard and at the Naval War College. Now directs strategic studies at Johns Hopkins and is the author of several books on military strategy. Was on the Defense Department's policy planning staff in the first Bush administration and is now on Donald Rumsfeld's Defense Policy Board.

I. Lewis Libby
Law degree from Columbia (Yale undergrad). Held advisory positions in the Reagan State Department. Was a partner in a Washington law firm in the late '80s before becoming deputy undersecretary of defense for policy in the first Bush administration (under Dick Cheney). Now is the vice president's chief of staff.

Dov Zakheim
Doctorate in economics and politics from Oxford University. Worked on policy issues in the Reagan Defense Department and went into private defense consulting during the 1990s. Was foreign policy adviser to the 2000 Bush campaign. Sworn in as undersecretary of defense (comptroller) and chief financial officer for the Pentagon, May 2001.

Stephen Cambone
Political science doctorate from Claremont Graduate School. Was in charge of strategic defense policy at the Defense Department in the first Bush administration. Now heads the Office of Program, Analysis and Evaluation at the Defense Department.

[Barkeep49]

I get a 404 when I click on the link.

[sachmo71]

Moi too.

[HornedFrog Purple]

oops try now

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I don't know, really.

Just look at the people who debate this stuff here at FOFC. Has there been a single mind changed by any of this stuff? It just seems like an overwhelming share of people use whatever is in the news to simply reinforce their pre-existing opinions.

All the people who are calling for Rumsfeld's head are the same people who have already been calling for Bush's. Bush defenders all seem to be rallying behind their leader(s) regardless of what happens.

Polarizing politics makes the actual facts redundant, almost whatever they are.

I agree with this but some stuff on both sides raises the ire of the other. This news that diretcly linkls Rummy to violating the Geneva Convention makes one ask, "If he'll do it once, why would he not do it again?"

BTW I told you so, I have been saying since this all started trickling out that it would until it climbed all the way to the top. I knew from the start that the evidence of violations of the Geneva Convention (in light of the Pictures) would keep climbing. Who wants to GUARANTEE me now that the Iraqi Prisoner Abuse, happend A) by a few hillbilly's B) on a few days last year C) cuz they were all drunk? We need to hold those responsible responsible and put competent people in place of those who are not.

We can still save our reputation(s) around the world if we just start being honest and assume responsibility.

[Fritz]

Originally Posted by HornedFrog Purple

Here is some eerie stuff I posted here a long time ago and the general consensus was that it was nonsense. The verdict is still out.

I recall thinking it had many strong elements at the time. Reading it again, I feel the same way.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Originally Posted by Fritz

I recall thinking it had many strong elements at the time. Reading it again, I feel the same way.

Yeah me too and that is what is eerie. I still don't agree with some of the conclusions made in it.

The point really I was making in posting it again is that these are some of the people Rumsfeld is listening to and in turn is who our President is listening to.

[Flasch186]

Just saw Bush said, "were lucky to have him in the position he's in." Lemme tell ya, i feel soooo lucky. Waiting on the press conference to watch Rumsfeld aquirm his way out of this, "It was 7 hillbilly's from hoboken!" "they were drunk" im sooo sick of it, why cant they just be honest? Maybe im naive but thats all ive wanted this whole time.

[WussGawd]

Originally Posted by Driftwood

I actually voted for Bush, and I think the man himself is a good, honest man...but why is he surrounding himself with such terribly immoral, dishonest, machiavellian people who arent even keeping the Pres in the loop?

Ashcroft, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz...these people are dangerous to American security.

Um, maybe it's because he's not nearly as good and honest a man as he's led you to believe? Naw, couldn't be.

[Flasch186]

ditto...

[Sharpieman]

I've hated Bush ever since he won the election unfairly. But more and more I am begining to think that he maybe just be largely innocent. I mean, it's most of the guys around him that have done the majority of the dirty work that has caused the US so many problems. I see not Rumsfeld, but Cheney as the dirtiest of them all. This is not to say that Bush is a great guy or anything, but not as bad as I thought he was. Although I do hate his war on the environment and the fact that he wouldn't help out CA when Enron stole millions of dollars from us. Why would he try to convict his good friend?

[SunDancer]

Originally Posted by Sharpieman

I've hated Bush ever since he won the election unfairly.

Unfairly, or just that Florida screwed up? To be honest, it seems that Bush's adminstration is filled with all highly smart, doctorone-level type people who are extremely knowledgable and would be great college professors. However, they lack a grasp on reality and common sense.

[NoMyths]

Sharpie: Innocence means being blameless. A man is not blameless if he surrounds himself with foolishness, arrogance, and evil past any reasonable excuse.

More and more I respect the man who says the buck stops here.

And all of that said, I think we're in the grace period where people are allowed to give over without shame. But past a certain point, getting fooled turns into willingly allowing oneself to be fooled.

[Sharpieman]

Well you can't blame him for everything. I mean, its not the first time in US history where there have been marginal at best cabinet members. And not all of them are marginal. Powell is very good, he's just stuck in a bad situation where his ability has been overshadowed by politics. I never said that Bush was blameless, he is to blame for a lot of the problems. But he is innocent in some cases. Face it, it wasn't his fault that 9/11 happened. The planning for that day started back in 1999.

[Sharpieman]

Originally Posted by SunDancer

Unfairly, or just that Florida screwed up? To be honest, it seems that Bush's adminstration is filled with all highly smart, doctorone-level type people who are extremely knowledgable and would be great college professors. However, they lack a grasp on reality and common sense.

Cheney or Rumsfeld as professors? Yikes. I really would wonder how Cheney would teach something like Ethics? Is that possible?

[yabanci]

Originally Posted by Sharpieman

Cheney or Rumsfeld as professors? Yikes. I really would wonder how Cheney would teach something like Ethics? Is that possible?

his expertise is war profiteering, not ethics.

[Sharpieman]

Or Rumsfeld teaching criminal justice

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Sharpieman

Well you can't blame him for everything. I mean, its not the first time in US history where there have been marginal at best cabinet members.

You mean like Ronald Reagan? He had some real doozies (James Watt being the king of the loonies). His intent of delegating a good portion of authority to his cabinet was a good one in some respects, but relied upon picking very capable leaders in their roles. It was a politically savvy move as well in that it allowed Reagan to escape much of the criticism directed at his administration since he could claim plausible deniability. The "Teflon President" as they called him.

Bush learned this lesson well...