Thoughts on Carlos Delgado sitting...

[MrBug708]

...during the National Anthem. I heard some scathing opinions on it today saying he should be ashamed to not stand for the anthem of the country that has made him a rich, rich man.

Anyone have any thoughts on this issue? Or even heard about it?

[JeeberD]

Mahmoud Abdul Rauf

[Driftwood]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Mahmoud Abdul Rauf

whos that?

[Pumpy Tudors]

Didn't hear about it. Don't really care. It's certainly not my place to decide what's right for the man.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Driftwood

whos that?

He's the player formerly known as Chris Jackson. (He played at LSU with Shaq)

He turned his back on the American flag during the anthem. It ruined his career. Hakeem ripped him (he had idolized Hakeem and that hurt him badly).

CJ had some emotional problems though. He had an incredibly quick release. Could have been a good one. Instead, he never amounted to anything but a role player. He was actually just starting to realize his potential before he made that stupid move.

[SackAttack]

I dunno, he plays for Toronto, Bug. Canada's not the 51st state...yet.

[JeeberD]

Mahmoud also had Tourret's Syndrome, so it was amazing that he was as good as he was. He would be walking down the court and his body would be spasming all over the place, but as soon as the stepped up to the free throw line he was steady as could be. He was one of the truly great free throw shooters in the history of the game, and it's a shame his career ended as it did.

Fun player to watch...

[Shkspr]

If a Puerto Rican playing for a Canadian team chooses not to participate in the singing of the Star Spangled Banner, I can't judge him any harshly than I would wish Ralph Rose to be judged.

[The_herd]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Mahmoud also had Tourret's Syndrome, so it was amazing that he was as good as he was. He would be walking down the court and his body would be spasming all over the place, but as soon as the stepped up to the free throw line he was steady as could be. He was one of the truly great free throw shooters in the history of the game, and it's a shame his career ended as it did.

Fun player to watch...

One of the best college players I've seen in my lifetime. Averaged over 30 a game as a freshman at LSU. Simply an amazing player to watch.

[JeeberD]

His frosh year Tim Hardaway kicked his ass in the NCAA tournament. Of course, Timmy was a senior but Chris was the super-hyped wunderkind. Up until I moved to Denver and started following the Nuggets I absolutely hated Jackson's guts...

[Samdari]

Well, MLB should insist that he be respectful of any anthem played before any MLB game. He does not have to believe in current US policy or administration, but he can be made to follow company policy or not have a job.

And Chris Jackson was indeed amazing to watch.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Well, MLB should insist that he be respectful of any anthem played before any MLB game. He does not have to believe in current US policy or administration, but he can be made to follow company policy or not have a job.

Agreed. We stand during the Canadian national anthem at hockey games, despite the fact that 40% of their teens think we're evil...

[Travis]

Yeah, they stand during the Canadian anthem, they just fly the flag upside down

[Radii]

Its disrespectful and if he were my friend sitting beside me in the stands at the start of a game i'd be pretty annoyed at him, but since he's not my friend and not my responsibility, I really don't give a shit what he chooses to do during any anthem.

[miked]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Well, MLB should insist that he be respectful of any anthem played before any MLB game. He does not have to believe in current US policy or administration, but he can be made to follow company policy or not have a job.

And Chris Jackson was indeed amazing to watch.

Is it MLB policy that every player must rise for the national anthem? The dude didn't feel like rising for the national anthem...it's his decision. He gets paid to hit HRs and drive in runs, outside of that he can more or less do as he pleases, no? Of course it will affect sales of Delgado bobbleheads to people who are patriotic, but that's his choice.

I saw the Yankee game last week and they zoomed in on Manny during "God Bless America" where he adjusted himself and hocked a nasty loogie. What's worse?

[Maple Leafs]

Is there a link anywhere? I can't find this on any of the sports sites.

Was he doing it as a protest, or just goofing around and not thinking?

[WSUCougar]

Since MLB players hear it at least 162 times a year, one can understand how the significance of the anthem might get diluted for them.

However, since they all know that's it's part of the pre-game routine and what should be appropriate conduct, to me it's blatantly disrespectful not to stand.

Is it required to stand? No. Do I lose some respect for the guy for his action? Absolutely.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by miked

Is it MLB policy that every player must rise for the national anthem? The dude didn't feel like rising for the national anthem...it's his decision. He gets paid to hit HRs and drive in runs, outside of that he can more or less do as he pleases, no? Of course it will affect sales of Delgado bobbleheads to people who are patriotic, but that's his choice.

I don't know if its policy or not. I assume that it is, but was more trying to say it should be.

No, he cannot do whatever else he wants as long as he hits home runs, hits etc. His (once he has signed the contract) is not at all dependent on that. He gets ~10 million if he hits .220 and 5 HR or .330 and 45. On the other hand, there is a minimum of things he must to to satisfy his contract. The league can suspend players, I think they should suspend him 1 game for every game he chooses to be that disrespectful, whether they are playing national music for US, Canada or Puerto Rico. And if they go to Japan, Mexico, the DR, Argentina or Iraq, he should stand and be respectful of their anthems (if they play one by custom, that is).

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by miked

Is it MLB policy that every player must rise for the national anthem? The dude didn't feel like rising for the national anthem...it's his decision. He gets paid to hit HRs and drive in runs, outside of that he can more or less do as he pleases, no? Of course it will affect sales of Delgado bobbleheads to people who are patriotic, but that's his choice.

I saw the Yankee game last week and they zoomed in on Manny during "God Bless America" where he adjusted himself and hocked a nasty loogie. What's worse?

In my opinion God Bless America shouldn't be played. And it's not because I'm not religious (because I am).

As for Carlos Delgado not standing, is this a normal occurance? Or is was it a one time event?

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by dangarion

In my opinion God Bless America shouldn't be played. And it's not because I'm not religious (because I am).

No kidding. Leave it to the Yankees to capitalize on a moment that long ago lost any real emotional significance in order to gain a competitive advantage.

[Huckleberry]

Actually, I don't think the national anthem should be played before every freaking sporting event. It's really kind of dumb. For baseball, maybe the All-Star Game and Game One of the World Series. And maybe the home opener for every team. But 162 times for every game is silly.

[digamma]

As I understand it, Delgado is standing during the national anthem, but he refuses to stand during God Bless America.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

Actually, I don't think the national anthem should be played before every freaking sporting event. It's really kind of dumb. For baseball, maybe the All-Star Game and Game One of the World Series. And maybe the home opener for every team. But 162 times for every game is silly.

We had a thread semi-on-topic last month. I posted part of an interesting article explaining the history of the Anthem at baseball games.

http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/for...ad.php?t=26179

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by digamma

As I understand it, Delgado is standing during the national anthem, but he refuses to stand during God Bless America.

If this is accurate, then that's his perogative and none of our business. That's just another song being played despite any extra signifigance being placed on it by groups trying to make it our national anthem and get rid of the "Star Spangled Banner".

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by digamma

As I understand it, Delgado is standing during the national anthem, but he refuses to stand during God Bless America.

Then I support his decision. I see no bearing as to why anyone should have to stand to "God Bless America" it holds no value in my mind other then being a song. It is not our national anthem.


I do fully support continued playing on "Star Spangled Banner" at every sporting event and see no reason it should be removed.

[bbor]

Delgado is on the DL....so was he even in uniform? does that matter?

[Radii]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

If this is accurate, then that's his perogative and none of our business. That's just another song being played despite any extra signifigance being placed on it by groups trying to make it our national anthem and get rid of the "Star Spangled Banner".

Agree totally here. It doesn't affect me as a fan if it was the national anthem, though I'd lose a little respect for him. But if its anything but the national anthem, sit away.

[timmynausea]

I don't really see the difference at all. The songs essentially mean the same thing, although God Bless America does mention God.
I don't think it should matter if a guy sits or stands during the national anthem. It is an empty gesture to stand during the national anthem just as it is an empty gesture to sit during it in protest. I don't mean that in a bad way, necessarily. If you want to stand to show pride for your country or respect or etc. go for it. To treat it like something that is truly meaningful or important is pretty ridiculous, though, in my opinion.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Samdari

I don't know if its policy or not. I assume that it is, but was more trying to say it should be.

No, he cannot do whatever else he wants as long as he hits home runs, hits etc. His (once he has signed the contract) is not at all dependent on that. He gets ~10 million if he hits .220 and 5 HR or .330 and 45. On the other hand, there is a minimum of things he must to to satisfy his contract. The league can suspend players, I think they should suspend him 1 game for every game he chooses to be that disrespectful, whether they are playing national music for US, Canada or Puerto Rico. And if they go to Japan, Mexico, the DR, Argentina or Iraq, he should stand and be respectful of their anthems (if they play one by custom, that is).

Are you serious ? Its a measure of protest by one man against something he disagrees with- there is no forced obligation for standing, just as flag-burning is legal - you can't force people to love you. I may not agree with what he has to say, but damned if I support you or anyone else who wants to deny him his right to say it.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

No kidding. Leave it to the Yankees to capitalize on a moment that long ago lost any real emotional significance in order to gain a competitive advantage.

As far as I know, this is not a Yankee thing. The playing of God Bless America since 9/11 was an order from King Bud for all MLB teams. I don't know why we have to turn every public sporting event into a celebration of patriotism. I'd be happy if the did away with the Anthem and God Bless America at the games and just played baseball. That's what I pay to watch.

I'm just glad my clients don't ask me to sing the Anthem every time I meet them.

[Huckleberry]

Originally Posted by Aadik

Are you serious ? Its a measure of protest by one man against something he disagrees with- there is no forced obligation for standing, just as flag-burning is legal - you can't force people to love you. I may not agree with what he has to say, but damned if I support you or anyone else who wants to deny him his right to say it.

I'm assuming he is very serious. Private entities, such as Major League Baseball, have the right to enforce rules within their operations above and beyond what the law requires. There were situations where companies fired employees for stating "good" when they heard about the 9/11 attacks in the workplace. Companies have the right to require certain behaviors (such as dress, language, etc.) within their workplace that the law does not require.

I am also 100% against the government forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to do. But he's not implying the government should require it.

[hhiipp]

When you stand for the national anthem what does it mean? Do you even know why you stand or do it just because that's what everyone else is doing? Do you get anything extra out of it by standing that you wouldn't get if you were sitting?

I think this is just another instance of us trying to force our beliefs down someone elses throat.

If you want to lose some respect for him as a person so be it but you shouldn't start throwing around suspension and fine talks.

[Blade]

Any confirmations on whether it was the anthem or God Bless America that he did not stand for? Either way, it is his choice. If it was the anthem, I do lose some respect for him, but personally, if he chose not to stand for God Bless America, then I have no grudges. Not that Canada has any other songs that would be sung about Canada before a game anyway...and no, Celine Dion or Anne Murray do not count...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by hhiipp

I think this is just another instance of us trying to force our beliefs down someone elses throat.

The Golden Rule:

He who has the gold (and pays it to someone) makes the rules.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by hhiipp

When you stand for the national anthem what does it mean? Do you even know why you stand or do it just because that's what everyone else is doing? Do you get anything extra out of it by standing that you wouldn't get if you were sitting?

I think this is just another instance of us trying to force our beliefs down someone elses throat.

If you want to lose some respect for him as a person so be it but you shouldn't start throwing around suspension and fine talks.

I do. When I hear the anthem I feel a lot of pride for my country. Standing for it brings attention to it as it should. Where as if they just played it and everyone was sitting there would not be as much attention given to it.

It's just as you are supposed to stand for the pledge of alligience. It's pride and respect towards your country and those that have died for it.

[hhiipp]

Originally Posted by dangarion

I do. When I hear the anthem I feel a lot of pride for my country. Standing for it brings attention to it as it should. Where as if they just played it and everyone was sitting there would not be as much attention given to it.

It's just as you are supposed to stand for the pledge of alligience. It's pride and respect towards your country and those that have died for it.

That is good that you have pride and respect for your country, however Carlos obviously isn't from the US, so why should he be required to show respect and pride? The only ties he has to this country is someone from it is paying his salary.

[Maple Leafs]

Nothing on ESPN, nothing in the Toronto Star, nothing on tsn.ca...

Could someone please post a link to a news story, somewhere, so that those of us who missed the secret memo can join the discussion?

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Nothing on ESPN, nothing in the Toronto Star, nothing on tsn.ca...

Could someone please post a link to a news story, somewhere, so that those of us who missed the secret memo can join the discussion?

It's easy. Song played, he sat. Big whoop.

can't find a story either

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by hhiipp

That is good that you have pride and respect for your country, however Carlos obviously isn't from the US, so why should he be required to show respect and pride? The only ties he has to this country is someone from it is paying his salary.

Actually, while the US obviously drives the baseball economy, the Blue Jays are owned by Canadians.

[The_herd]

Originally Posted by hhiipp

That is good that you have pride and respect for your country, however Carlos obviously isn't from the US, so why should he be required to show respect and pride? The only ties he has to this country is someone from it is paying his salary.

While he may not be from the US (he's from Puerto Rico, which is technically the US), its common curtesy to pay respect to such things. As it has been stated numerous times, its the country paying his bills right now and sitting during the Anthem, for whatever reason (if it was, in fact, the Anthem he sat thru), isn't the best way of handling yourself.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by hhiipp

I think this is just another instance of us trying to force our beliefs down someone elses throat.

That is utter crap.

If he is forced to stand, it would be forcing him to be (actually no, just to appear) respectful of others' beliefs, not to share them. There is a huge difference.

EDIT: But in purely economic terms, he would be being asked to not damage the value of the product by giving people a very visible reason not to buy it. All employees of all companies are required to do this by their employers in order to keep their jobs. Being in the media's eye (and thus having mundance acts such as this known to the masses/customer base) is one of the sacrifices one makes in order to get the ludicrously high salaries offered in pro sports. If Carlos wants a job where he can not stand and be respectful at the game, have him hawk beer, then he can do so and it won't be a public issue.

I guess this has become purely philosophical, since it appears he has done so during a ritual with far less rigid protocol.

[timmynausea]

Originally Posted by Samdari

That is utter crap.

If he is forced to stand, it would be forcing him to be respectful of others' beliefs, not to share them. There is a huge difference.

If we are forcing him to stand we are not respecting his beliefs.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by timmynausea

If we are forcing him to stand we are not respecting his beliefs.

Since the onbly belief of his we are disrespecting appear to be "I can't be bothered" I don't have a problem with that.

Besides, he knew standing for the anthem was part of being in a professional baseball game. If his beliefs were more important than the money, he should not have signed it. Since he did, he has to stand.

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by timmynausea

It is an empty gesture to stand during the national anthem just as it is an empty gesture to sit during it in protest. I don't mean that in a bad way, necessarily. If you want to stand to show pride for your country or respect or etc. go for it. To treat it like something that is truly meaningful or important is pretty ridiculous, though, in my opinion.

So, showing pride or respect for one's country is not meaningful or important? You're a sad little man, in my opinion. But I didn't mean that in a bad way, necessarily.

[Huckleberry]

I don't see how the nonsensical ritual of playing the national anthem before 162 games shows any pride or respect in your country. How about reserving the anthem for truly important occasions so as not to dilute its significance?

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

I don't see how the nonsensical ritual of playing the national anthem before 162 games shows any pride or respect in your country. How about reserving the anthem for truly important occasions so as not to dilute its significance?

I think this is an important part of the issue, and I don't necessarily disagree with you. To ignore the importance that many people place upon the pride of the national anthem, however, is ridiculous to me.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Where does it say that standing for the anthem is required (or even suggested) for a Major League Baseball player? If someone doesn't like what Carlos Delgado does, that's fine. To say that he has some obligation to stand, though, makes it sound like there is some unspoken agreement among all Americans that this act simply should be done. I don't think it's as simple as that. I'm not saying that everyone has to like Carlos Delgado, nor am I saying that everyone has to respect Carlos Delgado. Hell, hate him if you want. I just don't know where an outsider (someone who's not affiliated with him or his employer(s)) really has the authority to make the call on what he "should" do.

[Travis]

So when are we going to start in on all the fans who don't remove their caps during the national anthem? That's always been a pet peeve of mine, yet every game I go to (whether it be hockey, football or baseball), more and more people are keeping their caps on. Is this acceptable now and not disrespectful?

[The_herd]

Thats covered in the thread Ksyrup linked above as well, if I'm not mistaken.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

I'm assuming he is very serious. Private entities, such as Major League Baseball, have the right to enforce rules within their operations above and beyond what the law requires. There were situations where companies fired employees for stating "good" when they heard about the 9/11 attacks in the workplace. Companies have the right to require certain behaviors (such as dress, language, etc.) within their workplace that the law does not require.

I am also 100% against the government forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to do. But he's not implying the government should require it.

Agreed, but the private sector does have limits on what it can and can't do - your employer can't force you to attend church for example- and this strikes me as being something similar.