Top 10 Myth and Lies in Sports

[Karim]

Good article in the dull days of summer...

For hockey fans, check out Myth #3:
http://msn.foxsports.com/story/2579652

It's so hard to measure "best of all-time" but the author makes some interesting arguments. Messier's my all-time favourite player so I'm biased and I've never seen Orr play.

[bbor]

To say Gretz is'nt thebest ever is just plain stuoid and shows this writer has a lack of hockey knowledge.

Yes...backchecking and hitting helps a team...but is there anything else in the game that helps more than scoring a goal or setting up a goal?...no.

I heart Bobby Orr...he is my Idol...but i STILL think Gretz is the man.

[mrsimperless]

For #1...

I don't know about bad calls evening out overall (probably not) but within some games at least they most definitely do. There absolutely ARE "make-up" calls.

[ISiddiqui]

He's an idiot... if just for #3. To demean what Gretzky has done because he's not the type of hockey player HE likes is totally absurd. The man has more ASSISTS than anyone else has POINTS! I mean come on!

[Maple Leafs]

I think you can make a decent argument that Gretzky isn't the best of all-time. He did play in a super offensive era (although much of that was his creation), and Orr and maybe even Lemieux can make a case. Maybe Howe as well.

But please spare me the Messier talk. Messier was mildly under-rated as an Oiler in the 80s, got some much deserved respect in 1990, and then went to New York where since 1994 he has been arguably the most over-rated figure in pro sports. This great leader has not been to the playoffs in ten years. His Vancouver run was a disaster, and since returning to New York he's been a sad parody of himself, hanging around these days even though he's clearly not wanted, living off the ten-year-old good will of New York fans.

"Mark Messier is the greatest leader in sports" should have been on the list of sports myths. Discuss.

[vtbub]

It's FOX, and we are talking about it.

[Blackadar]

No, I don't think you can make any argument that Gretsky isn't the best ever. The game is to put the puck in the net. He did that FAR better than anyone. The argument is so absurd it's not even worth arguing about.

Stupid article by a stupid person.

[Buddy Grant]

Originally Posted by bbor

To say Gretz is'nt thebest ever is just plain stuoid and shows this writer has a lack of hockey knowledge.

Yes...backchecking and hitting helps a team...but is there anything else in the game that helps more than scoring a goal or setting up a goal?...no.

I heart Bobby Orr...he is my Idol...but i STILL think Gretz is the man.

Yeah, I never was a Gretzky fan but I have never seen anyone remotely as dominant (in his prime) on the ice. This writer's head is firmly in his ass.

[rexallllsc]

Arguments can be made that Gretzky isn't the best ever. The only ones that have merit are Bobby Orr, and I don't agree with those.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

Arguments can be made that Gretzky isn't the best ever. The only ones that have merit are Bobby Orr, and I don't agree with those.

Hell, I'm a Bruins fan and I wouldn't make that argument.

[sabotai]

His argument seems to rest on Gretzky having large numbers during a very offensive era. But wait a minute....didn't other people play during that era as well? He makes it seem like Gretzky was the only worthwhile player in the league for a decade, and since it was an offensive game, he got tons of stats. But that's just nonsense. Other great players played during that era, and Gretzky's numbers dwarf their's. Like Isiddiqui said above, he has more assists than anyone else has points. That's amazing.

And he leaves a pretty big time frame there when he tries to argue Gretzky's plus/minus (as if he's a defensman or goalie). He covers 11 years for that! Two years of that, The Kings were horrible, and Gretzky had a plus/minus of -25 and -20 in 93-94 and 94-95, respectively. In 90-91, he had a plus/minus of +30. It seems to me that a player's plus/minus, overall, is more dependant on hsi supporting cast than just him. If you're goalie sucks and your defense sucks, Then it won't matter if you had 130 points in a season (93-94).

There are different kinds of players for each position in every team sport. Mobile QB's vs. Pocket Passers. Speedy Halfbacks vs. Power Backs. Power Hitter vs. Contact Hitter. etc. etc. etc. Just because a player isn't a kind of player you like doesn't mean he can't be the best ever.

He basically sums up how much of a jerkoff he is at the end:

"He's not. It's a lie."

No, it's an OPINION jackass. Opinions can not be "wrong or right". They can not be lies. A lie is a false statement made intentionally. "Wayne Gretzky is the best hockey player ever" is not a false statement. It's not a true statement. It's an opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

[Blackadar]

It's funny how in the 4 major US sports (NASCAR doesn't count as a sport with me), when you talk about the best ever, hockey is the only one that is pretty unanimous on the "best ever". You occasionally get some dipshit trying to say Gretsky isn't the best ever, but usually it's pretty muted.

In football, the first question is always "what position?". Most folks can't agree on a best-ever even within their respective positions.

In baseball, you'll get a few names - The Babe, DiMaggio, Ted Williams, Micky Mantle, Barry Bonds, Ricky Henderson, Ty Cobb, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Stan the Man - the usual suspects. But from there, there's little consensus on the best ever. And that's just hitters. Get into pitchers and it's a whole different ballgame.

In basketball, just a few names come to mind - Jordan, Bird, Magic, Russell, Chamberlin, Oscar Robinson to name a few. Jordan wins the popularity vote but there's still some real discussion on who really is the best ever (my vote: Russell).

But in hockey, there seems to be little discussion. It's the Great One with only a couple of others in his class: Lemieux, Howe, Orr. It's just kind of funny how few historical figures there are in hockey to even compare to Gretsky.

[rexallllsc]

It kinda bothers me how easy Jordan was handed the "Greatest Ever" title by so many. WTF happened to Magic? Bird?

Do people forget Magics triple-double as a rookie in the playoffs....starting @ Center?

[Maple Leafs]

I think his Gretsky argument is basically that if you consider the era, his stats aren't as awe-inspiring.

Do you think Sammy Sosa is a great slugger than Babe Ruth?* He's had better single seasons. But Sammy did it in the juiced-ball era, and Ruth did it in an era when nobody else could match him. So you adjust for that in your mind before you rank Sosa ahead of Ruth.

I'm not saying the guy's right -- of course Gretzky is the greatest ever. But he's no completely out in left field with his line of thought either.

*Not you, Neuqua.

[albionmoonlight]

[quote=rexallllsc]It kinda bothers me how easy Jordan was handed the "Greatest Ever" title by so many. WTF happened to Magic? Bird?
[quote]

. . . Chamberlin, Russell . . .

[Karim]

I consider Messier as the greatest power forward to ever play. Gordie Howe is a legend but not part of my generation and difficult for me to assess.

I'm surprised that it's fairly unanimous on Gretsky; I assumed there would be more dissent.

On a different note, is there any statistical way to equalize eras in any sport - something akin to economists adjusting for inflation? We can put a man on the moon but we can't come up with a reasonable way to assess performance in different eras? Have Bill James or other sabermetricians done any work in this area and could it be applied to the other sports?

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Karim

I'm surprised that it's fairly unanimous on Gretsky; I assumed there would be more dissent.

Karim, please understand I hold you in the highest regard. Your hockey knowledge is unquestioned, and your work in the All-Time Hockey Auction was without compare. It is truly a pleasure to discuss the great sport of hockey with one as wise as yourself.

All that said... if you don't learn how to spell "Gretzky" some day soon, I'm going to strangle you.

[henry296]

Karim,

In baseball they do OPS relative to the league average for a given season. You could do that with any stat.

[heybrad]

Lets not forget that there was a time when Gretzky was put on a line with guys like Marc Potvin and Gary Shuchuk. The Kings struggled at times getting good players to play with Gretzky and he still put up big numbers.

[Draft Dodger]

did that guy really write that Mark Messier was better than Wayne Gretzky?

oh wait, sorry. it's FOX (motto "we put news in quotes"). nevermind.

[bbor]

Sab had an awesome point..Gretz did not play by himself in the "live puck era" so why was there no ther player that had the gawdy numbers he did?

Messier does'nt even register on the greatest player ever race.As for greatest leader...who knows....how many games does a great leader win?..2 maybe 3 games a season?

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by bbor

Sab had an awesome point..Gretz did not play by himself in the "live puck era" so why was there no ther player that had the gawdy numbers he did?

Well, there's at least one: the #2 all-time scorer played in the same era as Gretzky. He's that big bald guy. Mark something.

Of course, that kind of kills the guy's argument, but still...

[wheels]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Karim, please understand I hold you in the highest regard. Your hockey knowledge is unquestioned, and your work in the All-Time Hockey Auction was without compare. It is truly a pleasure to discuss the great sport of hockey with one as wise as yourself.

All that said... if you don't learn how to spell "Gretzky" some day soon, I'm going to strangle you.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Unfortunately, I never had the privilege of watching Bobby Orr play, but I've heard many describe him as the best "offensive defenseman" ever. Would Gretzky be considered the best "defensive forward" ever? Personally, I think Gretzky is one of the most dominant players to ever play any North American pro sport, but I respect the article writer's argument about Bobby Orr. Orr could definitely play both ways effectively (from what I know of him), and to be so good on both ends of the ice should certainly at least warrant an argument.

I'm not sold on Messier, though.

[ahbrady]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

In football, the first question is always "what position?". Most folks can't agree on a best-ever even within their respective positions.

In baseball, you'll get a few names - The Babe, DiMaggio, Ted Williams, Micky Mantle, Barry Bonds, Ricky Henderson, Ty Cobb, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Stan the Man - the usual suspects. But from there, there's little consensus on the best ever. And that's just hitters. Get into pitchers and it's a whole different ballgame.

In basketball, just a few names come to mind - Jordan, Bird, Magic, Russell, Chamberlin, Oscar Robinson to name a few. Jordan wins the popularity vote but there's still some real discussion on who really is the best ever (my vote: Russell).

But in hockey, there seems to be little discussion. It's the Great One with only a couple of others in his class: Lemieux, Howe, Orr. It's just kind of funny how few historical figures there are in hockey to even compare to Gretsky.

In football, I completely agree with you. I don't even think I've ever heard anyone give an opinion on the greatest ever regardless of position.

I think baseball is the most debated of the major sports. I think you can make a solid argument for several people, but I have a question for you. Are you Rickey Henderson? He's the only person that I could imagine thinking he could be considered the greatest.

I think that Chamberlain or Robertson very well could be the greatest ever. It is very hard to compare this sport across eras though. Chamberlain's numbers were unbelievable, and Robertson averaged a triple-double for a season. Impressive to say the least.

I live in Arkansas, so I have no clue on hockey.