Edgar Martinez to Retire...In An Hour

[Ksyrup]

ESPN is reporting that Edgar Martinez has decided to retire, effective immediately.

A 5:30 ET press conference has been scheduled for the announcement. Since the alternatives were Scott Spiezio and Bucky Jacobsen, it's a shame that the Mariners wouldn't keep playing Martinez regularly and allow him to finish his career in style. Aug. 9 - 4:11 pm et


Also, to throw some more baseball stuff in the mix:

Phillies acquired RHP Cory Lidle from the Reds for outfielder Javon Moran, LHP Joe Wilson and a player to be named.

The Phillies needed this. Lidle hasn't had a great season, but he's a clear upgrade over Paul Abbott. He'll probably be sent to the pen if the rest of the Philadelphia's starting pitchers get healthy. However, the odds of that happening aren't great. Lidle's value remains unchanged. In return for Lidle, the Reds are getting a decent young outfield prospect in Moran, who is batting .285/.340/.385 with 39 steals for Single-A Lakewood. Wilson has a chance to be a major league reliever, but like Moran, he's a few years away. Aug. 9 - 4:07 pm et

[WSUCougar]

Tip of the cap to Edgar, a classy career Mariner and the prototypical DH if ever there was one. MLB will be lesser for his retirement.

[korme]

dammit, i liked lidle. stupid reds

[VPI97]

Just what the Reds need...another outfielder.

[Huckleberry]

Edgar seems like a great guy, but I find it hard to get all worked up about a mid-season retirement (why now? Playing time? He's had 333 at-bats and he sucks) by a guy who made a living playing a position that shouldn't exist.

Congratulations on a nice career are in order, though.

[Ksyrup]

I bet they were going to can him like Olerud and Aurilia, so he just retired.

[Crapshoot]

nah- they wouldnt do that. Edgar should be a HOF - one of the greatest pure hitters we'll ever see.

[Huckleberry]

What does "pure hitter" mean to you? Honest question. It's used all the time but nobody has ever told me what it means.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

What does "pure hitter" mean to you? Honest question. It's used all the time but nobody has ever told me what it means.

Good question- I might have fallen into the cliche trap, but by that I mean someone who looked good hitting, did it very well for a long time, and who seemed to exemplify the art of hitting- its not the greatest definition in the world, but I think you get my intent.

[Huckleberry]

That's as good an explanation as I've received. He definitely fits that description more than Tony Gwynn.

[hhiipp]

By pure hitter he meant a guy who made a living only swinging his bat and rarely playing defense.

Since we're mentioning Abbotts in this thread, what ever happened to Jim? I lost track of him about 10 years ago and he had actually slipped my mind until Paul was mentioned in this thread.

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

That's as good an explanation as I've received. He definitely fits that description more than Tony Gwynn.

How do you figure? Gwynn was an artist and a student of hitting.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Aadik

nah- they wouldnt do that. Edgar should be a HOF - one of the greatest pure hitters we'll ever see.

Perhaps they told him they were benching him for the younger guys, and he decided he'd rather retire than ride the pine. I know he only came back because he was playing at such a high level last year. This year he's been nothing like he was last year, and that combined with losing his everyday position probably made this an easy decision for him.

I'm really not sure I consder him a HOF'er, though.

[WSUCougar]

Strange thing is TSN had a blurb indicating Edgar might get some time at 1B since Jacobsen was banged up a bit (sore hammy or ankle or something).

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by hhiipp

Since we're mentioning Abbotts in this thread, what ever happened to Jim?

He played for the Brewers in 1999 after bouncing around for a bit, went 2-8, and then retired.

[Huckleberry]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

How do you figure? Gwynn was an artist and a student of hitting.

Well, it's my opinion that Gwynn didn't "look good" hitting. And while Gwynn was a very good hitter, he was also the most overrated hitter of my lifetime. Possibly ever.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

Well, it's my opinion that Gwynn didn't "look good" hitting. And while Gwynn was a very good hitter, he was also the most overrated hitter of my lifetime. Possibly ever.

Pass some of what it is you're smoking.

[sterlingice]

I have always understood "pure hitter" as a term to describe a contact hitter rather than a power hitter. Typically a line drive guy with a nice swing who is always above .300 but never has more than, say, 20 or 25 homers in a season.

Also, I always thought the term "pure hitter" is fielding independent: you could be a good or bad one. Tho, I suppose it does end up tagged on guys who are better hitters than fielders, otherwise they'd be a "complete player" or something.

SI

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

Well, it's my opinion that Gwynn didn't "look good" hitting. And while Gwynn was a very good hitter, he was also the most overrated hitter of my lifetime. Possibly ever.

Curious thing to say about an 8-time batting champion with a .338 career average, but of course you're entitled to your opinion.

[korme]

sean casey, pure hitter

[Suicane75]

IMO, Edgar Martinez was a great hitter, but he doesn't deserve to be in the Hall Of Fame because he spent the majority of his career, ya know, not fielding, which I think is a pretty integral part of the game.

[Huckleberry]

I never denied he was very good. In fact, he can probably be classified as great. And he did always hit for a high average. But I just don't think that a .338 singles hitter is as valuable, or even close, as Gwynn was made out to be. Add to that the fact that he was a singles hitter without speed by 30, and you have my opinion.

Overrated does not mean not great. In fact, it's hard to call a really shitty player overrated isn't it? Generally the shitty ones aren't rated really high.

As an example to throw out there, Bobby Abreu. If he follows a typical career path from here on out, he will end up with a better career than Tony Gwynn. Why isn't the media on his jock?

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

IMO, Edgar Martinez was a great hitter, but he doesn't deserve to be in the Hall Of Fame because he spent the majority of his career, ya know, not fielding, which I think is a pretty integral part of the game.

He also only had 11 seasons of 450 or more ABs. And considering that he only had 3 of those seasons in which he actually played a position, that means more to me than simply arguing that he was a DH. I have no problem letting a DH in, but he'd have to have a much longer career than Martinez did, or at least spend less time as a full-time DH than Martinez.

[grdawg]

Originally Posted by hhiipp

Since we're mentioning Abbotts in this thread, what ever happened to Jim? I lost track of him about 10 years ago and he had actually slipped my mind until Paul was mentioned in this thread.

He actually played in the Yankees old timers game a few weeks ago. He pitched an inning, it was nice to see him again

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

I never denied he was very good. In fact, he can probably be classified as great. And he did always hit for a high average. But I just don't think that a .338 singles hitter is as valuable, or even close, as Gwynn was made out to be. Add to that the fact that he was a singles hitter without speed by 30, and you have my opinion.

Overrated does not mean not great. In fact, it's hard to call a really shitty player overrated isn't it? Generally the shitty ones aren't rated really high.

As an example to throw out there, Bobby Abreu. If he follows a typical career path from here on out, he will end up with a better career than Tony Gwynn. Why isn't the media on his jock?

Because the idea of a pure hitter is someone who hits for average. Abreu can't sniff Gwynn's batting average.

Now, in terms of OPS, Abreu is better. But that's not the issue.

[Travis]

Ironically, I've always thought John Olerud was a great pure hitter with one of the smoothest swings, he and Ken Griffey have two of the easiest looking swings I've ever seen.

Tony Gwynn on the other hand, was one of the greatest pure hitters of our time because not only was he nearly impossible to strike out, he was able to hit the ball where he wanted it to go with a level of control that very few in baseball today can match. Mostly because they're all trying to hit it 500 feet in the glorified home run derby that baseball is turning into, but I digress.

Edgar though, will be hurt hugely by not having played a regular position, and probably won't make it into the hall, which I'm torn about, as he was an absolutely fantastic hitter for a lot of years and probably could have played first if there was no DH rule. That's where it gets hard to argue against putting him into the hall, as you know very well that he would have been around just as long had teams been forced to use him in the field and not as a DH.

[sterlingice]

I was curious about his HoF merits as I didn't think he was anywhere near it. Good player but not great so I went over the baseball-reference.com to check out the comparison stats:

Black Ink: Batting - 20 (102) (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting - 107 (190) (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 48.1 (79) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 128.5 (96) (Likely HOFer > 100)

Similar Batters

1. Will Clark (907)
2. Chuck Klein (882) *
3. John Olerud (876)
4. Bob Johnson (870)
5. Larry Walker (857)
6. Luis Gonzalez (855)
7. Ellis Burks (854)
8. Paul O'Neill (851)
9. Gary Sheffield (850)
10. Fred Lynn (843)

The only metric he's close on is the HoF monitor but James's formula doesn't take into account that there will be an inherent bias towards a DH because, frankly, it's too new. There are very few "career DHs". Plus, his career compares aren't that great, either. Good players but not great. So, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting to get in because Edgar won't be in Cooperstown.

SI

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Travis

Edgar though, will be hurt hugely by not having played a regular position, and probably won't make it into the hall, which I'm torn about, as he was an absolutely fantastic hitter for a lot of years and probably could have played first if there was no DH rule. That's where it gets hard to argue against putting him into the hall, as you know very well that he would have been around just as long had teams been forced to use him in the field and not as a DH.

But again, he wasn't around long enough, I don't think. He wasn't full-time until age 27, had several partial seasons lost due to injury, and here's the biggest thing, to me - his best seasons came when he was only DH'ing. Maybe it just suddenly clicked for him at age 32, but there's also the argument that had he been a regular first baseman, maybe he wouldn't have had the power/RBI numbers he had late in his career.

[WSUCougar]

I'm not the baseball statistician that some of you guys are, but I did a quick search on some of the other "pure" hitters off the top of my head, and Gwynn compares very favorably. His average is significantly higher, and his .459 career slugging percentage is better than Carew, Boggs, Molitor, and Rose. George Brett's is .487, but his career BA is .305.

I understand what you are saying Huckleberry, but the hitting consistency of a guy like Gwynn is pretty astonishing. He wasn't a power hitter, but to say he was overrated still strikes me as a questionable stance. Maybe you heard some things about him that I didn't.

[WSUCougar]

I'm still not sure where I personally stand on the Edgar/DH/HOF issue, but I think to penalize a player for being a DH is kind of a false approach. I personally despise the DH, but the fact of the matter is that it is a legitimate position in the AL, and Edgar Martinez is widely regarded as one of the best - if not THE best - there has been at it. If that's not the definition of "fame" I'm not sure what is.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Because the idea of a pure hitter is someone who hits for average. Abreu can't sniff Gwynn's batting average.

Now, in terms of OPS, Abreu is better. But that's not the issue.

You do have to take era into account. Abreu hit in the 90's while Gwynn played a lot of games in the deadball 80's. Abreu's career OPS is 19.4% over the league average during his career (.772) whereas Gwynn was "only" 16.0% over (.730). So, the difference is there but it's not nearly as great as it looks when you just compare their .922 to .847. Gwynn's OPS would have been .896 if he had played in the years Abreu played.

SI

[Huckleberry]

You can't compare his career slugging percentage as a straight value. League slugging percentage fluctuated drastically between Carew and Gwynn. It's nice that you selected Carew, because they were basically the same hitter after adjusting for the times in which they played. Both great. But both overrated as a hitter.

Obviously I'm not saying Gwynn was overrated as a batting average hitter.

[The_herd]

Unless my personal standards for the hall are too high, I just can't see how there could be HOF talk with Edgar Martinez. Yes he was a good hitter, but why can't his career be left at that? Why does every good hitter have to be considered for the hall. His career stats, and to some extent his single season stats, don't add up to HOF consideration. Martinez is a player that should be remembered as a guy that could hit pretty well, but it should stop there.

[Ksyrup]

Looks like he is retiring at the end of the season, not immediately.

SI, I only threw Abreu out there because he had been mentioned earlier. THere's clearly a mis-conception about Gwynn that is 'largely' based on the size of his ass.

[Huckleberry]

What misconception?

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

But both overrated as a hitter.

Obviously I'm not saying Gwynn was overrated as a batting average hitter.

And that's where this dovetails with the "pure hitter" discussion. Pure hitters get hits, regardless of what kind they are. Obviously, some hitters are more productive because they hit doubles, triples, and/or HRs, but a "pure hitter" simpyl reaches base via the hit more often than any other hitters.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Looks like he is retiring at the end of the season, not immediately.

SI, I only threw Abreu out there because he had been mentioned earlier. THere's clearly a mis-conception about Gwynn that is 'largely' based on the size of his ass.

Actually Huck did, but I just recopied your post addressing him.

Speaking of Huck, are you a big believer in Three True Outcomes or just not big on guys who hit for average with no power?

SI

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

What misconception?

That he's not a good hitter. Look at my last post. He's not overrated as a hitter, if being a hitter means reaching base via the hit. He might not have the slugging percentage of some guys who hit well, but they don't have the batting average he did, either. All that means is that a larger percentage of his value was dervied from base hits. Doesn't make his a bad hitter. But that is where the argument about him being a great pure hitter" comes from.

[The_herd]

My opinion is that the ability to get on base is underrated. So I can't see how Gwynn would be overrated. He's considered a great hitter. Not a great power hitter. And he's never mentioned as one of the great OFers to play. I think Gwynn is "rated" properly.

[Huckleberry]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

That he's not a good hitter. Look at my last post. He's not overrated as a hitter, if being a hitter means reaching base via the hit.

Well, that's pretty clearly not how I'm defining it. I'm defining it based on your value to the team as a hitter.

He might not have the slugging percentage of some guys who hit well, but they don't have the batting average he did, either. All that means is that a larger percentage of his value was dervied from base hits. Doesn't make his a bad hitter. But that is where the argument about him being a great pure hitter" comes from.

Understood. He is a great "pure hitter" by your definition. But I don't find that particularly useful in the mindset of a baseball GM. And, for the record, nobody has called him a bad hitter. I called him a great hitter. But an overrated great hitter.

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Speaking of Huck, are you a big believer in Three True Outcomes or just not big on guys who hit for average with no power?

SI

TTO seems to be a statistic that is entertaining only. Batters should not be judged by it other than for entertainment value, regardless of the validity or invalidity of DIPS. Batters clearly can control the results outside of the TTO. I just don't value singles hitters.

Originally Posted by The_herd

My opinion is that the ability to get on base is underrated. So I can't see how Gwynn would be overrated. He's considered a great hitter. Not a great power hitter. And he's never mentioned as one of the great OFers to play. I think Gwynn is "rated" properly.

I consider the ability to get on base underrated as well. That's why Gwynn's career .388 OBP strikes me as unimpressive within the context of Gwynn as a great hitter. The guy didn't walk enough for me to be wowed by his on-base ability. While clearly one of the great contact hitters of all time, he had to hit .350 or greater to achieve a .400 OBP.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

I consider the ability to get on base underrated as well. That's why Gwynn's career .388 OBP strikes me as unimpressive within the context of Gwynn as a great hitter. The guy didn't walk enough for me to be wowed by his on-base ability. While clearly one of the great contact hitters of all time, he had to hit .350 or greater to achieve a .400 OBP.

That fact always made me wonder about Gwynn. He had tremendous control of the strike zone (as evidenced by his miniscule strikeout numbers) yet I rarely saw him walk. I never understood how a guy who got so few strikeouts also got so few walks.

SI

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by The_herd

Unless my personal standards for the hall are too high, I just can't see how there could be HOF talk with Edgar Martinez. Yes he was a good hitter, but why can't his career be left at that? Why does every good hitter have to be considered for the hall. His career stats, and to some extent his single season stats, don't add up to HOF consideration. Martinez is a player that should be remembered as a guy that could hit pretty well, but it should stop there.

151 career OPS+ - 17th all time in career OBP, 32nd all time in career OPS+. What's exactly is not to like here ?

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Aadik

151 career OPS+ - 17th all time in career OBP, 32nd all time in career OPS+. What's exactly is not to like here ?

Too short a career, particularly since he was a DH. I haven't heard a decent argument for him that takes into account the length of his career.

[Crapshoot]

From me primer post:
Meh, I think he is a HOF- Career OPS+ of 151 (which undervalues him because of the OBP weighting), 2100 hits, retires with the 17th best OBP of all time, and and ranks 32nd overall in OPS+. From 1995-2001 in the AL, he finished outside the top 2 in OBP once- (he finished 6th), and was in the top 8 of OPS every year. A 7 time all-star, and he probably deserved to be on a couple more teams. I think there are a lot worse players than Edgar in the hall, and I certainly see no problem with putting him in

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Too short a career, particularly since he was a DH. I haven't heard a decent argument for him that takes into account the length of his career.

he had 2119 hits- more than Duke Snider, approximately as many as Will McCovey, more than Billy Hamilton, about a 100 less than Willie Stargell and a few more than Hack Wilson- all HOF's with a lower OPS+ than him (Which underweights him, since his OBP was fairly high). Jeff Bagwell, a no question asked HOF right now , has less hits. Punishing Edgar for getting his hits more efficiently and faster seems asinine.

[bigbadraidersfan]

What are Edgar's career numbers (HRs, hits, RBIs, AVG, etc)? I think it's tough to put a DH in the call. Dave Kingman isn't there and isn't he 500 HR club? Or at least pretty close.

Too bad Edgar's days are finished though. The Mariners hit a brick wall this year and the AL West is almost upside down, with the Rangers at the wrong end of where they normally are. Swap them with the Mariners and you'd have the normal looking AL West, with A's, M's and Halos battling it for the West and perhaps the WC.

[Crapshoot]

RBI's = absolutely bloody irrelelvant. Avg has a so-so correlation with runs scored, unlike OBP- in which Edgar ranks 17th all time. Think about that- only 16 hitters in the history of baseball have higher OBP"s - and 5 of those have as many PA's as Edgar or less. That's pretty damn amazing.

[Crapshoot]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...P_career.shtml

the list of players with a higher OBP- when you consider those who have as many PA's and have played modern day baseball (post 1900) they are all first ballot no questions asked HOF's- Ruth, Williams, Bonds, Gehrig, Hornsby, Thomas, Speaker, and Foxx. that's mighty impressive company.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

Well, it's my opinion that Gwynn didn't "look good" hitting. And while Gwynn was a very good hitter, he was also the most overrated hitter of my lifetime. Possibly ever.

You are now my enemy.

[ISiddiqui]

On Gwynn, if we look at Win Shares per 162 games, Gwynn (26.94) was better than Reggie Jackson, Roberto Clemente, Harry Heilmann, Sammy Sosa, Duke Snider, Kirby Puckett, Tim Raines, Willie Stargell, Carl Yaztrzemski, etc... and that's just outfielders . If anything, he may be underrated.