Ping: St. Louis Cardinal fans

[Cuckoo]

It all starts now!!!

Okay, I'm just kidding. Seriously, though, I have a few questions.

Number 1: Just noticed that Larry Walker was hitting in the number two hole. Does that seem strange to anyone else? I can understand wanting to get some lefties at the top, and I know LaRussa's put Edmonds there before, but do you think this will be a regular occurrence, and what do you think of it?

Number 2: Obviously, St. Louis will have plenty of time to set their rotation before the postseason. What will the rotation look like? Three, four, or five man? Is Carpenter the game one guy or Morris because he's been around longer?

Number 3: Finally, as a Cubs fan, I have to ask. Are you guys worried about your starting pitching when the playoffs come around where most so-called experts claim it's all about pitching? I'm sure that most of you will say that you're not, and Cards4ever or Mizzourah may throw in a slam of the Cubs' offense in the process , but I'm seriously curious. I think the Cubs will be the Wild Card team, and I'm not worried about their starting pitching, but I am legitimately worried about the bullpen, and Dusty Baker's desire to bat Sammy higher in the order than I think he should be. I know you have to have concerns about your team despite their amazing record, and I'm wondering what they are.

I'm hoping for a Cubs/Cards NLCS. I think I would have to find a way to go see at least a game of that.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Cuckoo

It all starts now!!!

Okay, I'm just kidding. Seriously, though, I have a few questions.

Number 1: Just noticed that Larry Walker was hitting in the number two hole. Does that seem strange to anyone else? I can understand wanting to get some lefties at the top, and I know LaRussa's put Edmonds there before, but do you think this will be a regular occurrence, and what do you think of it?

They played Marlon Anderson in left tonight (lefty) instead of Sanders. The only other option for 2 is Rentaria which would mean 2-4 are rightys, with 5-7 being lefty. I think it's better to put Walker up at the 2 (he has the speed) and get a better L-R breakup from 2-7. If Sanders plays for Anderson, maybe you put Walker back down at 6 and Renteria at 2.

Number 2: Obviously, St. Louis will have plenty of time to set their rotation before the postseason. What will the rotation look like? Three, four, or five man? Is Carpenter the game one guy or Morris because he's been around longer?

Based on the last few months, you have to go Carpenter, Marquis, Williams as your top 3. Morris may be the most talented pitcher, but he's just too inconsistent to start in the postseason at this point. His last 4 starts are pretty much a microcosm of his season:

7 IP, 2 ER
0.2 IP, 8 ER
9 IP, 0 ER
1.2 IP, 7 ER

I just don't think you can afford to have a guy allow a 7 spot in the first inning in the playoffs. The other three have been steady 6-7 inning, 2-3 run type starters. Which is really all this offense needs. Why roll the dice with a Morris?

Number 3: Finally, as a Cubs fan, I have to ask. Are you guys worried about your starting pitching when the playoffs come around where most so-called experts claim it's all about pitching?

Sure, but guys like Marquis, Williams and Carpenter have been more consistent than guys like Wood, Clement and Prior so far. And, again, this team has a very good bullpen (top 4 relievers with an ERA under 3) and the best lineup in baseball. If the Cards' top three guys can go 6-7 innings allowing 2-4 runs like they have all season, they will be in great shape.

Plus, I think the odds of a team shutting down St. Louis consistently over the series is very slim. I see no national league trio (Wood, Clement, Prior being the best) that has the pitching to do that. LA, Atlanta and the Cubs have nice starting pitching, but nothing on the level of Johnson/Schilling that would be needed to give St. Louis consistent trouble.

The main concern I have is health. If the Cards stay healthy, I can't see any NL team get the best of them over a full series. But, stranger things have happened.

[Cuckoo]

Thanks for the reply Arles. Amazing that I can agree with you so often politically, but be so far when it comes to baseball.

Originally Posted by Arles

They played Marlon Anderson in left tonight (lefty) instead of Sanders. The only other option for 2 is Rentaria which would mean 2-4 are rightys, with 5-7 being lefty. I think it's better to put Walker up at the 2 (he has the speed) and get a better L-R breakup from 2-7. If Sanders plays for Anderson, maybe you put Walker back down at 6 and Renteria at 2.

I can see that, but I still think that Renteria's the best at two consistently despite who's playing left field and that Walker should be in more of an RBI capacity. I'm not sure he still has the speed with his injuries to be a real effective top of the order guy, but that's just my opinion.

Originally Posted by Arles

Based on the last few months, you have to go Carpenter, Marquis, Williams as your top 3. Morris may be the most talented pitcher, but he's just too inconsistent to start in the postseason at this point. His last 4 starts are pretty much a microcosm of his season:

7 IP, 2 ER
0.2 IP, 8 ER
9 IP, 0 ER
1.2 IP, 7 ER

I just don't think you can afford to have a guy allow a 7 spot in the first inning in the playoffs. The other three have been steady 6-7 inning, 2-3 run type starters. Which is really all this offense needs. Why roll the dice with a Morris?

That's interesting, and I'd probably agree with you. I'm wondering because of his status with the team if LaRussa will use Morris in one of the first two games of a series.

Originally Posted by Arles

Sure, but guys like Marquis, Williams and Carpenter have been more consistent than guys like Wood, Clement and Prior so far. And, again, this team has a very good bullpen (top 4 relievers with an ERA under 3) and the best lineup in baseball. If the Cards' top three guys can go 6-7 innings allowing 2-4 runs like they have all season, they will be in great shape.

Plus, I think the odds of a team shutting down St. Louis consistently over the series is very slim. I see no national league trio (Wood, Clement, Prior being the best) that has the pitching to do that. LA, Atlanta and the Cubs have nice starting pitching, but nothing on the level of Johnson/Schilling that would be needed to give St. Louis consistent trouble.

I don't know if I'd necessarily agree with your first part here. Wood and Prior have been injured much of the year so it's too difficult to look at consistency. When he's been healthy, Wood has actually been very consistent with the possible exception of two mediocre starts. Prior, I'll agree has been very spotty. Clement, I think, has been one of the best in the NL. The only thing inconsistent for him has been his offensive support.

I do agree with you that no team can shut down St. Louis consistently over a series. One would have to hope to hammer their pitchers and try to just hold them to three or four on average.

Originally Posted by Arles

The main concern I have is health. If the Cards stay healthy, I can't see any NL team get the best of them over a full series. But, stranger things have happened.

Yeah, I think the Cardinals have been very fortunate this year as far as the injury bug, comparitively to other NL teams at least. I would say that, at full strength, I can't see any NL team that can get the best of the Cubs in a full series. Ahh, it's going to be fun.

[Cards4ever]

Just keep it up, the Cards have been discounted all season, why make them the favorites now?

The Cubs are awfully righthanded, and that is a big reason why the Cards added the lefthanded Walker. The Cubs don't play well in Busch, the bullpen is a mess, the better defense is in STL and the Cubs are still the favorites? Sure, why not.

The Cards are winning games in all different kinds of ways, look at tonight for instance, they get 2 hit and they both are homers to win the game. This team has won in all kinds of ways, shapes and forms. I'd worry about winning the Wild Card before I started worrying about playing the Cards in the NLCS.

[WSUCougar]

Walker in the 2nd slot is ideal, mainly because it drops Edgar Renteria to 6th, where he is most comfortable. On paper I really like him in the 2 slot, but apparently he doesn't care for it as much (although obviously he does it when asked).

I think Arles is dead on with the rotation. Marquis and Williams are pitching outstanding right now. Carpenter left tonight's game with some supposedly-minor lower back issue, but I think he's #1. When Morris is on he's awesome, and I love the guy, but it's a roll of the dice this year.

In truth I am not over-confident about the rotation, but am quite content. I was just thinking tonight how common it is now to check in on a Cards game and see the other team with no runs deep in a game, or at most 1. That's a fantastic feeling.

I do think the Cubs are a potent foe, but I'll take the Redbirds head-to-head.

[Fonzie]

^^
What they said.

My biggest fear is that LaRussa will try to get cute with the rotation in the playoffs (see: Ankiel, Rick) and plop Morris in Game 1 out of some sense of loyalty to his veteran/supposedly #1 starter. I think its unlikely he'll do that, but it still worries me a bit.

I'm not too concerned with where Walker hits in the order, as long as it makes the lineup tough for opposing managers to deal with. Rather, my biggest concern with him is keeping him healthy. He's a bit fragile (as everyone knows), so let's hope the Cards' good luck with the injury bug rubs off on him. Or he rubs out the injury bug. Or the injury bug gets rubbed on a windshield. Oh, I don't really care just as long as some rubbing is going on.

[MizzouRah]

Number 1: Just noticed that Larry Walker was hitting in the number two hole. Does that seem strange to anyone else? I can understand wanting to get some lefties at the top, and I know LaRussa's put Edmonds there before, but do you think this will be a regular occurrence, and what do you think of it?
Walker has something like a .400 on base % and Renteria hits better in the #6 position. I like Walker batting 2nd myself. Womack gets on base, then Walker - Pujols - Edmonds - Rolen - Renteria - Sanders. Wow, that's scary!

Number 2: Obviously, St. Louis will have plenty of time to set their rotation before the postseason. What will the rotation look like? Three, four, or five man? Is Carpenter the game one guy or Morris because he's been around longer?
Carpenter - Morris - Marquis - Williams. Morris is much better at home and Williams can pitch good on the road. That's my rotation at least.

Number 3: Finally, as a Cubs fan, I have to ask. Are you guys worried about your starting pitching when the playoffs come around where most so-called experts claim it's all about pitching? I'm sure that most of you will say that you're not, and Cards4ever or Mizzourah may throw in a slam of the Cubs' offense in the process , but I'm seriously curious. I think the Cubs will be the Wild Card team, and I'm not worried about their starting pitching, but I am legitimately worried about the bullpen, and Dusty Baker's desire to bat Sammy higher in the order than I think he should be. I know you have to have concerns about your team despite their amazing record, and I'm wondering what they are.
Nope, we have excellent starting pitching, great defense (Walker adds to an already great defense), and maybe the best bullpen around. The Cubbis have no bullpen. I think we can duel any Cubs starter pitcher for pitcher, then when the bullpens get envolved - we should excel and win games like we have all year. We just beat a great pitcher tonight with Carpenter leaving in the 3rd inning - on 2 hits!!

I really don't have any concerns at this point, the season has been amazing for me as a fan. I just hope we're injury free going into the playoffs.

I'm hoping for a Cubs/Cards NLCS. I think I would have to find a way to go see at least a game of that.
That would be a great series with alot of ulcers I'm sure!


Todd

[Cuckoo]

Thanks to WSUCougar, Fonzie, Arles, and Mizzourah for thoughtful answers to my questions which were legitimate. I wish Cards4ever could have done the same, but he seems to be carrying a pretty large chip on his shoulder.

Fonzie, I thought the exact same thing as you about LaRussa which is why I asked the question. From what I've seen, Morris is a three starter at best for St. Louis right now, and I was wondering if you guys foresee LaRussa pitching him in one of the first two games. I hadn't thought about the home/road split that Mizzourah had mentioned, though. That's interesting.

The only thing I would add is that although I am concerned about the Cubs' bullpen, I wouldn't go so far as to say they have no bullpen. In fact, it's been very good of late. Remlinger, Mercker, and Hawkins have all stepped up their games considerably, and the new guys, Dempster and Leicester, have looked very good. Only God knows why Farnsworth can't figure things out.

Like I said, if it happens (and I realize the Cubs still have to get into the playoffs), it'll be an outstanding series. Obviously, my loyalties are clear, but I wouldn't put money on either side.

I also didn't know that Renteria preferred hitting sixth, but that explains a lot. On paper, I would still have to say that he'd fit so much better in the two hole, but I understand that there are other things to consider there.

[Coffee Warlord]

Odd as it is...the trio of Clement, Maddux, and Zambrano are, in my mind, a more formidable playoff set than anything with Wood and Prior.

Right now. There's still some time left to see if the 1-2 punch hits their stride. Right now, I'd trust the above three over Prior/Wood in the playoffs.

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Odd as it is...the trio of Clement, Maddux, and Zambrano are, in my mind, a more formidable playoff set than anything with Wood and Prior.

Right now. There's still some time left to see if the 1-2 punch hits their stride. Right now, I'd trust the above three over Prior/Wood in the playoffs.

Well, I certainly agree with you about Prior, but I think Wood has been very good since coming back. The only thing left for him is to get his pitch count back up to his usual levels. Zambrano has actually been spotty lately.

[Cuckoo]

DOLA

Remember two, that it was Wood and Prior who stepped up in the playoffs last year after Zambrano and Clement had been pretty darn good in the regular season.

And Dusty Baker made a comment that I find interesting as well. He noted that the best pitcher in the playoffs last year was Josh Beckett, a guy who was thoroughly rested due to a portion of the season being injured.

[Cards4ever]

Wow, talk about the chip, you can talk smack, but no one else can? You are already putting the Cubs in the NLCS for christsakes.

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by Cards4ever

Wow, talk about the chip, you can talk smack, but no one else can? You are already putting the Cubs in the NLCS for christsakes.

How was I talking smack? I said that I expected my team to win. Does that surprise you? I would expect you to do the same.

The purpose of the thread, however, was to ask some very legitimate questions that I wondered about the Cardinals. You couldn't do that. You could only insult the Cubs. I never discounted or degraded the Cardinals at all. In fact, I gave them significant credit. But for some reason, you have it in your mind that a Cubs fan can't have a genuine baseball discussion with you. That makes me feel very sorry for you.

There have been plenty of smack-talking threads (about which I alluded with my ribbing at the beginning of this thread), but I did not intend this to be one of them. I don't understand why you can't see that. I feel like it was made very clear, as was my statement (multiple times) that the Cubs still had to get to the NLCS first, but boy would it be a fine match-up if it happened.

I don't think you read my posts, and your reaction is precisely what I would call a chip on the shoulder.

[Cards4ever]

Originally Posted by Cuckoo

How was I talking smack? I said that I expected my team to win. Does that surprise you? I would expect you to do the same.

The purpose of the thread, however, was to ask some very legitimate questions that I wondered about the Cardinals. You couldn't do that. You could only insult the Cubs. I never discounted or degraded the Cardinals at all. In fact, I gave them significant credit. But for some reason, you have it in your mind that a Cubs fan can't have a genuine baseball discussion with you. That makes me feel very sorry for you.

There have been plenty of smack-talking threads (about which I alluded with my ribbing at the beginning of this thread), but I did not intend this to be one of them. I don't understand why you can't see that. I feel like it was made very clear, as was my statement (multiple times) that the Cubs still had to get to the NLCS first, but boy would it be a fine match-up if it happened.

I don't think you read my posts, and your reaction is precisely what I would call a chip on the shoulder.

You know what, I made a couple of comments and you go fetal, what is up with that?

I made some very legitimate points, you question the Cardinals batting order and pitching, I questioned the Cubs in a few areas and yet all you can do is say I have a chip on my shoulder.

Yes, lets have some baseball discussion, tell me, how do you address the fact that the Cubs have been terrible in Busch? The Cubs are very righthanded, how do they intend on flipping the Cards LH lineup? What about the bullpen questions? Is Nomar going to stay healthy? What about the other contenders for the Wild Card?

You have questions about the Cards, I have many about the Cubs, so, don't be so touchy and answer my questions.

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by Cards4ever

You know what, I made a couple of comments and you go fetal, what is up with that?

I made some very legitimate points, you question the Cardinals batting order and pitching, I questioned the Cubs in a few areas and yet all you can do is say I have a chip on my shoulder.

Yes, lets have some baseball discussion, tell me, how do you address the fact that the Cubs have been terrible in Busch? The Cubs are very righthanded, how do they intend on flipping the Cards LH lineup? What about the bullpen questions? Is Nomar going to stay healthy? What about the other contenders for the Wild Card?

You have questions about the Cards, I have many about the Cubs, so, don't be so touchy and answer my questions.

You've got it Cards4ever, I'll stop being so touchy, if you promise to do the same. Your response to my original post read like nothing but a Cubs bashing to me, and that's why I said what I said. I was not questioning the Cardinals batting order or pitching, in fact, I was questioning how the fans felt about their rotation order and LaRussa's line-up decisions. I promise to you that I was not meaning to insult them in any way. If you took it that way, I apologize. I know I've said on this board many times, that I give the Cardinals all the credit in the world for an amazing season, and I think they are the team to beat right now. I think that if there was one team that I wouldn't want the Cubs to face in the postseason for difficulty reasons, it'd be St. Louis, and I bet that most Cards fans would answer the Cubs given the same question.

Now, to your questions about the Cubs. Not sure if you're talking about right-handed pitching or right-handed order so I'll address both.

Yes, they are very right-handed in the line-up, but I actually don't see it as being a big issue because of the fact that they haven't even hit left-handers very well this year at all. I'd be curious to see if, in the postseason, a smart manager brings in a lefty (like Kline or King whom the Cubs haven't hit at all) to face their righty guys. I'd be a bold move, but an effective one in my mind. Obviously, they have Patterson from the left side, and he hits lefties better than most of the righties. Then Walker gives them a bat from the left side when he plays. The one thing that makes me feel a little better about it is that the Cubs have some guys off the bench from the left side, assuming full health, like Hollandsworth, Macias, Goodwin, and Walker when Grudz starts.

As for their pitching, the lefties in the Cardinal line-up have given Cubs pitchers a lot of trouble, but when they have Pujols and Rolen from the right side, it doesn't really matter. Both sides are going to give them trouble. The Cubs do have some lefties in the pen who have pitched well of late, though, like Mercker, Remlinger, or Rusch, whom I think can match-up against Edmonds or Walker in a late game situation.

I don't know how I address the fact that the Cubs suck in Busch. They've sucked in Busch several years now, although if I remember correctly, they were a little better this year actually. It's certainly something they'll have to get past if there is a playoff match-up.

I actually addressed the bullpen questions for the Cubs a bit earlier. I would still like for them to get a bullpen arm in a waiver deal, maybe an Urbina (although I hear he's hurt) or a Mesa. If they don't, though, I won't be as worried as I was around the trading deadline. Their bullpen has been very good lately, with Remlinger, Mercker, and Hawkins all returning to form. Dempster and Leicester have really come in and provided a boost. The only huge question mark for me is Farnsworth. I just can't figure that guy out.

I don't have much doubt that Nomar will stay healthy. I think that he'll take a day off every week or so and be ready to go every game if the Cubs make it to the postseason. Obviously, though, nobody can predict injuries. Injuries could change the whole thing between now and October, and I have no idea what will happen. From what I've seen so far, Nomar is in very good shape and playing well.

Although I don't mean to discount the other teams in the Wild Card race (especially since San Diego beat the Cubs last night), I do think the Cubs will get in. I think that now, as they start to get healthy, they're the best of the Wild Card contenders from top to bottom, especially now with Nomar. San Diego, I think will fade a little bit, but I don't think San Francisco will. They're too used to winning, and I think they'll gut it out. In the end, though, I just don't think they have what it takes in talent - same story for Philly (who has been hit with injuries) and Florida (who just doesn't seem to have the spark of last year despite their good deadline pick-ups).

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by Cards4ever

You know what, I made a couple of comments and you go fetal, what is up with that?

DOLA

And what exactly is going fetal...? Does that mean I rolled up into a ball in the corner, searching for a teat.

[Cards4ever]

Guess we'll have to see how it plays out, but, I think the Wild Card is going to be tougher then what you anticipate, especially when you are not playing those teams day to day.

[Fonzie]

This has the potential to be a very fun thread, so I'd encourage everyone to keep it civil.

I think CW makes a very interesting point about the Cubs postseason rotation. I'd be floored if Dusty were to drop Wood or Prior from the rotation, as it would fly in the face of his persistent and sometimes irrational desire to "trust your veterans," but as esteemed baseball philosopher Joaquin Andujar once said, "youneverknow."

And while we're on the topic of rotations, I'll give y'all my preferred postseason rotation based on performance-to-date: Carpenter-Marquis-Williams-Morris. If, however, the Cards get homefield (which looks likely) and Morris' home/road split continues, I might bump Morris up to the #2 slot so he gets a home start. Of course, a lot can change before October, and I'm particularly worried about both Carpenter (coming off an injury) and Williams (who will be 38 next week) wearing down. That said, I'm not sure that would affect my desired rotation too much, as Jeff Suppan would be a less-than-optimal replacement.

On a side note, Rick Ankiel is expected to join the Cards next month when the rosters expand. He's had a pretty rough road to travel,so it'll be nice to see him back. Just so long as LaRussa doesn't get any bright ideas about starting him in a Game 1.

[Fonzie]

Originally Posted by Cuckoo

Does that mean I rolled up into a ball in the corner, searching for a teat.

What heterosexual male/homosexual female doesn't do this at least once a day?

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by Cards4ever

Guess we'll have to see how it plays out, but, I think the Wild Card is going to be tougher then what you anticipate, especially when you are not playing those teams day to day.

Well I certainly didn't mean to imply that the Cubs would walk away with it by any means, just that I thought they would win in the end. I definitely don't think it'll be a cake walk.

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by Fonzie

This has the potential to be a very fun thread, so I'd encourage everyone to keep it civil.

I think CW makes a very interesting point about the Cubs postseason rotation. I'd be floored if Dusty were to drop Wood or Prior from the rotation, as it would fly in the face of his persistent and sometimes irrational desire to "trust your veterans," but as esteemed baseball philosopher Joaquin Andujar once said, "youneverknow."

And while we're on the topic of rotations, I'll give y'all my preferred postseason rotation based on performance-to-date: Carpenter-Marquis-Williams-Morris. If, however, the Cards get homefield (which looks likely) and Morris' home/road split continues, I might bump Morris up to the #2 slot so he gets a home start. Of course, a lot can change before October, and I'm particularly worried about both Carpenter (coming off an injury) and Williams (who will be 38 next week) wearing down. That said, I'm not sure that would affect my desired rotation too much, as Jeff Suppan would be a less-than-optimal replacement.

On a side note, Rick Ankiel is expected to join the Cards next month when the rosters expand. He's had a pretty rough road to travel,so it'll be nice to see him back. Just so long as LaRussa doesn't get any bright ideas about starting him in a Game 1.

I think that at this point in the season, Prior would not be a game 1 or even game 2 guy for Dusty. Dusty knows that Prior still hasn't come back from his injury, and that he's still incredibly rusty and inconsistent. Hopefully, that will change by the end of the season, but I think a bigger question for the Cubs might be what to do with Maddux. If everyone's healthy for them, and they do actually make it into the playoffs, does Dusty go with a five man rotation? I honestly don't know. I'd have to think that Wood would go game one. After that, it's anyone's guess, and obviously the Cubs probably won't have the advantage of being able to set their rotation like the Cards will, but Dusty has shown a propensity to use Maddux as a change of pace guy from the hard-throwers, so he could very well be used in game two or game three or a series.

Like I said before, I didn't know that about Morris' home/road splits, but with that in mind, I'd probably pitch him in game two after Carpenter. I also agree that Marquis should be before Williams. Does that push Suppan to a long guy?

I haven't read much about Ankiel. The last thing I heard was that his control was still REALLY spotty. His is a really strange story, that's for sure. I suppose the Cardinals have the breathing room to let him get some innings in September, which is a good thing for him.

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by Fonzie

What heterosexual male/homosexual female doesn't do this at least once a day?

I'm actually there right now. Thank God for cordless keyboards.



Edit to add: Wow, triple dola for me.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by Cuckoo

I'm actually there right now. Thank God for cordless keyboards.



Edit to add: Wow, triple dola for me.

That's only a double dola... damn Cubs fans.


Todd

[The_herd]

Ok, gotta ask the Cubs fans this.

Do you think you are going anywhere with the lineup Dusty Baker sends out there?

Patterson - why on god's green earth is he hitting leadoff right now.
Garciaparra - A guy hitting in the right spot in the order.
Alou - Nope, should be hitting 5th.
Sosa - Great spot for him....3 years ago. Should be hitting 6th.
Ramirez - Best hitter is hitting 5th. Makes sense to me.
Lee - 2nd best hitter before Nomar arrived is hitting 6th. See above.
Walker - Should be hitting 1st or 2nd.
Barrett - Toss up between him and Patterson for the 7th spot.


I read the shit about Baker not moving Sosa down in the order because it may hurt his feelings. Bullshit, you're out to win games and. Plus, what's it going to do, make Sosa hit worse than he is right now?

Seriously, this is a team that should be scoring a lot more runs than it is and by looking at the batting order its easy to see why they aren't.

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by The_herd

Ok, gotta ask the Cubs fans this.

Do you think you are going anywhere with the lineup Dusty Baker sends out there?

Patterson - why on god's green earth is he hitting leadoff right now.
Garciaparra - A guy hitting in the right spot in the order.
Alou - Nope, should be hitting 5th.
Sosa - Great spot for him....3 years ago. Should be hitting 6th.
Ramirez - Best hitter is hitting 5th. Makes sense to me.
Lee - 2nd best hitter before Nomar arrived is hitting 6th. See above.
Walker - Should be hitting 1st or 2nd.
Barrett - Toss up between him and Patterson for the 7th spot.


I read the shit about Baker not moving Sosa down in the order because it may hurt his feelings. Bullshit, you're out to win games and. Plus, what's it going to do, make Sosa hit worse than he is right now?

Seriously, this is a team that should be scoring a lot more runs than it is and by looking at the batting order its easy to see why they aren't.

Yeah, I said that earlier in this thread. Sosa should not be in the 3rd or 4th spot, but that's how Dusty maintains his reputation as a player's manager and gets guys to play well for him supposedly. I think it's crap, and I agree with you that he belongs in the sixth spot.

I don't, on the other hand, have a problem with Patterson hitting lead-off. The team is completely void of speed, and anything that gets Patterson thinking about getting on base rather than swinging for the fences every pitch is a good thing. I also don't have a problem with Alou hitting third. He's one of the better clutch hitters and won't strike out as much as Ramirez.

Walker and Grudz have been splitting time with Grudz getting a bit more. My line-up, if I were manager, would look like this.

CF Patterson
SS Garciaparra
LF Alou
3B Ramirez
1B Lee
RF Sosa
2B Grudz/Walker
C Barrett
Pitcher

Obviously, it's right-handed dominated, but I addressed that in another post earlier as well. They hit much better against right-handers anyway, and have some good bats off the bench from the left side.

And to answer your first question: Yes, I think they'll still go somewhere with that line-up that Dusty puts out there because it's a lot of very good hitters, admittedly not what the Cardinals have, but on par if not better than most line-ups in the National League.

[The_herd]

Originally Posted by Cuckoo

I don't, on the other hand, have a problem with Patterson hitting lead-off. The team is completely void of speed, and anything that gets Patterson thinking about getting on base rather than swinging for the fences every pitch is a good thing. I also don't have a problem with Alou hitting third. He's one of the better clutch hitters and won't strike out as much as Ramirez.

I agree with the line up you posted, except for Patterson. Statistically speaking, he's the wost hitter in the lineup. .325 OBP and .763 OPS. World Class speed wouldn't make up for what he's lacking at the plate right now. Patterson has also taken about 5 steps back from a couple months ago when he started taking a few pitches after getting booed for every strikeout.

I would probably hit Lee 3rd and move Alou to 5th. Alou looks like the perfect 5 hitter right now and Lee's .371 OBP would be a lot more productive in the 3 hole. Todd Walker also has on OBP over .370 and should be getting a lot more ABs than Grudzielanek (a guy that's actually hitting worse than Patterson) and is who I would probably move into the leadoff spot in place of Mr. Swing and a Miss.


EDIT-The question of going anywhere was just to get people's attention.

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by The_herd

I agree with the line up you posted, except for Patterson. Statistically speaking, he's the wost hitter in the lineup. .325 OBP and .763 OPS. World Class speed wouldn't make up for what he's lacking at the plate right now. Patterson has also taken about 5 steps back from a couple months ago when he started taking a few pitches after getting booed for every strikeout.

I would probably hit Lee 3rd and move Alou to 5th. Alou looks like the perfect 5 hitter right now and Lee's .371 OBP would be a lot more productive in the 3 hole. Todd Walker also has on OBP over .370 and should be getting a lot more ABs than Grudzielanek (a guy that's actually hitting worse than Patterson) and is who I would probably move into the leadoff spot in place of Mr. Swing and a Miss.


EDIT-The question of going anywhere was just to get people's attention.

I actually agree with everything you've said, and I can definitely see the logic in swapping Lee and Alou. I think that Baker's feelings on Patterson is that if he can get him trying to get on base rather than drive in runs, it'll help him solve some of his problems at the plate. So far, it has work alright, but who knows how it'll work in the end. Baker also really likes that speed at the top, and speed is something the Cubs really lack.

Grudz did have a fine season last year, and I suppose that Baker's hoping to give him the at bats to get back to that. But, I agree with you that, right now, Walker should be in there.

[Cuckoo]

SINGLE DOLA (that was for you MizzouRah )

Incidentally, Suppan has a no-hitter right now through five.

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by Cuckoo

SINGLE DOLA (that was for you MizzouRah )

Incidentally, Suppan has a no-hitter right now through five.

Not any more. Cuckoo cursed him.

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

Not any more. Cuckoo cursed him.

As a Cubs fan, I don't have to keep it quiet...

[bhlloy]

Watching the game tonight and apart from Bonds is there any other non-pitcher you would want on your team rather than Scott Rolen?

[MizzouRah]

..and everyone says our pitching is a concern.. shakes head..


Todd

[MizzouRah]

dola,

and yes... Rolen was a STEAL, A STEAL.. A STEAL! ..thanks Philly!!


Todd

[Arles]

Who kidnapped Jeff Suppan and replaced him with Curt Schilling tonight? Man, if this guy can get any kind of consistency going in his starts, St. Louis is going to be a very tough team to face down the stretch.

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by Arles

St. Louis is going to be a very tough team to face down the stretch.

Word.

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by Arles

Who kidnapped Jeff Suppan and replaced him with Curt Schilling tonight? Man, if this guy can get any kind of consistency going in his starts, St. Louis is going to be a very tough team to face down the stretch.

St. Louis is going to be tough on anyone regardless of the way Suppan performs.

And I would say Rolen would be right up there, along with Pujols. The Cubs got a pretty good steal for their third baseman as well. Thanks Pittsburgh... Wait, do we see a pattern here...?

Poor Pennsylvania folks.

[Cards4ever]

Cubs lose 2 out of 3 at home to the Padres? Better not let that continue

[MizzouRah]

Cubs

Todd

[Arles]

Tonight is the exact reason why Morris should not be in the 3-man postseason rotation.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by Arles

Tonight is the exact reason why Morris should not be in the 3-man postseason rotation.

Why, because he had 4 un-earned runs? ...and LaRussa had the JV team out there today?


Todd

[Arles]

Because he gives up the big innings sometimes against good teams, especially on the road.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by Arles

Because he gives up the big innings sometimes against good teams, especially on the road.

If it wasn't for the errors, he would of had a normal game. Maybe the game would have still been 3-2.


Todd

[Cards4ever]

I figured this all out, the Cards were 18-17 before I went to STL in May, since then, they are 59-23! I turned the season around! If only the Cards could recognize that and hook me up if they make the WS!

[WSUCougar]

By the way, Pujols has gone ballistic. He's on a different plane. Which is scary.

[Cards4ever]

I'm just amazed at the different ways they find to win. This team is going to be tough to beat in the postseason, they should have the division wrapped up in about 3 weeks and after that they can start to get people rested, and the rotation setup for the playoffs.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by Cards4ever

I'm just amazed at the different ways they find to win. This team is going to be tough to beat in the postseason, they should have the division wrapped up in about 3 weeks and after that they can start to get people rested, and the rotation setup for the playoffs.

Here comes Ankiel!


Todd

[Cards4ever]

Originally Posted by Cuckoo

It all starts now!!!

Better start something soon, you just slipped to a game back in the Wild Card race.

Cards Magic Number is now 29!

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by Cards4ever

Better start something soon, you just slipped to a game back in the Wild Card race.

Cards Magic Number is now 29!

I love being in Chicago wearing a Cardinals hat. I think 3 people said, "Cardinals Suck" tonight. I love it!




Todd

[Cards4ever]

Check out #7

http://msn.match.com/msn/article.asp...44658&GT1=4529

[Cuckoo]

Okay, I'm bumping this because I have another question for Cardinal fans, and I didn't want to start another thread.

I should say first to please not take this as any attack on the Cardinals at all. This is simply a question of strategy, nothing else. I'm not questioning their character or anything else.

With that said, I was looking at the remaining schedules of the Wild Card contenders. In my opinion, and I realize some would disagree, the Cubs would be the favorites, the Giants next, and finally the Padres. Unless something amazing happens, the others are likely out of it. So, assuming that the Padres are the weakest of the three, which may be debatable to some but not to many others, here is my question:

The Cardinals still have six remaining games with the Padres and none with the Cubs. With a comfortable division lead and the playoffs virtually guaranteed for them, do they consider playing a little softer against San Diego? Strategically, would it even be something they think about, if not just on a personal player standpoint? In other words, I doubt that La Russa will hold a team meeting and say roll over, but would there be whispers about it amongst the players? Just wondering.