Venezuela holds recall elections.

[stevew]

Venezuela Holds Referendum on President

23 minutes ago

By ALEXANDRA OLSON, Associated Press Writer

CARACAS, Venezuela - The opposition's long and bitter campaign to oust Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez finally came down to a recall referendum Sunday, with the leftist leader hoping a huge turnout among the poor will keep him in power.


Activists on both sides set off fireworks and blared recordings of bugle music to wake voters hours before dawn, hoping for a flood of early votes in their favor. With army soldiers looking on, thousands lined up at polls before they opened at 6:00 a.m.


"I think everyone here is voting against Chavez," said Silvia Gomez, 49, who watched the sun come up as she waited with her husband to vote at a school in an upscale Caracas neighborhood. "This country is a disaster."


Officials from around the world — including Pope John Paul (news - web sites) II and U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites) — have called the referendum a victory for democracy in a nation battered by months of upheaval.


Chavez — has seen a resurgence of support among the poor after spending lavishly on far-reaching social programs — has pledged to respect the results "no matter what they are," calling the referendum "a victory for the people, for democracy."


But past bloodshed raised fears that violence could erupt again in the world's fifth-largest oil exporter if the results are disputed. Recent polls have showed neither side holding a convincing lead, and many are expecting a close outcome.


Officials have said they would release preliminary results at 8:00 p.m. EDT if one side has a clear lead. Exit polls were banned.


On Saturday, a masked and armed leader of a pro-Chavez militant group, speaking to an Associated Press Television News cameraman, threatened attacks against "any attempt to commit fraud or to stage a coup by any enemies of the revolution, by counterrevolutionaries or friends of the imperialist Americans."


The militant, who identified himself as "Comandante El Chino," clutched a hand grenade and had a pistol sticking out of a pocket. He was flanked by two other masked and armed militants.


Chavez and his opponents accuse each other of trampling over democratic boundaries in a political crisis that climaxed in a failed April 2002 coup that left dozens dead in street protests.


Many Venezuelans adore the 50-year-old former army paratrooper for his efforts to improve the lives of the impoverished majority. But critics say his "revolutionary" rhetoric has vilified the middle class and fueled tensions between rich and poor. Many fear he is gradually imposing a Cuba-style dictatorship.


The referendum follows months of painstaking negotiations mediated by the Organization of American States and the U.S.-based Carter Center, the gathering of millions of signatures and rulings by the National Elections Council and the Supreme Court.


"We recognize that tomorrow's vote is one more exercise in democracy," said former U.S. President Jimmy Carter said at a joint news conference with OAS Secretary-General Cesar Gaviria on Saturday. "It will not resolve all the country's problems or create a dominant political leadership."


Chavez, a vocal critic of Washington's economic and foreign policies, was elected president on an anti-corruption, anti-poverty platform in 1998. After changes to the constitution, he was re-elected to a six-year term in 2000.


For the recall to succeed, more Venezuelans must vote against Chavez than the nearly 3.8 million who voted for him four years ago. Then new presidential elections must be held within 30 days, during which time Vice President Jose Vicente Rangel would head a transitional government.


The constitution is unclear on whether Chavez could run as a candidate if a new election is held, as he has said he would do. The opposition coalition has yet to name a potential candidate.


Edginess over possible disruptions in Venezuela's oil industry, which normally provides almost 15 percent of U.S. imports, contributed this week to record high oil prices, which have reached more than $46 a barrel.


In Caracas, the Isaias Medina Angarita slum was awash in red posters urging voters to vote "no" against recalling Chavez. The only hint of dissent was the corner of a "yes" poster peaking out of a "no" one plastered over it.

"Here, 70 percent of the people are with the revolution," said William Contreras, an activist who practiced get-out-the-vote drills Saturday.

Hopefully Chavez, aka Lil' Castro will step aside when he loses.
My friend Guillermo, whose mother still lives in their homeland, has wanted this a-hole gone for a long time. She says the country has been rapidly deteriorating due to him.

[BreizhManu]

Originally Posted by stevew

Hopefully Chavez, aka Lil' Castro will step aside when he loses.
My friend Guillermo, whose mother still lives in their homeland, has wanted this a-hole gone for a long time. She says the country has been rapidly deteriorating due to him.

I know Venezuela quite well and even if Chavez (a real demagogic asshole) is horrible, is opponents are even worse in my opinion, at least Chavez gives people some hope, with the others Venezuela would go back to the corrupted system they had for the last 30 years (since Carlos Andres Perez).
Venezuela only had one decent president in all those years and that was Rafael Caldera.

[sterlingice]

If anyone has more information on this story, I'd be interested to hear it.

SI

[JonInMiddleGA]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3566970.stm

Basically, voting hours have been extended by 4 hours due to an even larger than expected turnout. Lines in some polling places extended more than 2km.

"This is the largest turnout I have ever seen," said former US President Jimmy Carter, who is in Venezuela to monitor the process.

"There are thousands of people in line, waiting patiently and without any disturbance."

[Cringer]

Go Chavez!

Info on Venezuela and recent events....hxxp://www.venezuelanalysis.com/

[Cringer]

this just showed up on the above website.............

hxxp://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1338

[JonInMiddleGA]

http://apnews.myway.com//article/200...D84G8NS80.html

With 94% of the vote counted, Chavez survives the recall 58% to 42%.

I can't say this exactly comes as a surprise IMO.

[QuikSand]

I'm a little surprised to hear that Venezuela has all-electronic on-screen voting systems, complete with paper ballot "backup" receipts printed and submitted on-site.

If there are irregularities in the voting or counting process observed (an odds-on proposition, I'd hazard) I wonder if their experience here will be useful for the US, where we have a semi-major controversy about the security and verifiability of similar systems being implemented, step by step, across the country.

[Cringer]

Excellent. Just woke up and it was the first thing I had to check on, nice to see. Although apperently the AP/U.S. news still has to take jabs at him in stories, but what is new there.....Thats OK. Chavez 3, Opposition 0

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Cringer

Excellent. Just woke up and it was the first thing I had to check on, nice to see. Although apperently the AP/U.S. news still has to take jabs at him in stories, but what is new there.....Thats OK. Chavez 3, Opposition 0

I gotta be honest with you Cringer, I can't for the life of me fathom how any American can sit & celebrate this "victory".

from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3517106.stm

"He courted controversy in foreign policy, too, making high-profile visits to Cuba and Iraq, while allegedly flirting with leftist rebels in Colombia and making a huge territorial claim on Guyana."

"Relations with Washington reached a new low when he accused it of "fighting terror with terror" during the war in Afghanistan after 11 September."

"Mr Chavez's "revolution" had little real impact on the lives of ordinary Venezuelans, who still suffer from chronic poverty and widespread unemployment despite the country's oil wealth."

And from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3479113.stm

"Increased unemployment, inflation, poverty and malnutrition ... Raised crime, impunity, and nepotism to much higher levels"

"Attacked and discredited the Supreme Court when it has not ruled in his favour ... Publicly ordered civilian and military authorities to disregard and disobey any court decisions that run contrary to his will"

"Formed alliances with the leaders of rogue states accused of violating human rights and of fomenting terrorism (Iraq, Iran, Libya, and Chavez's close ally, Fidel Castro of Cuba) ... Forged ties with irregular and subversive forces in the region, such as the Colombian guerrillas."

Frankly, the only cause for celebration I can see surrounding this guy would be an annoucement that he had overdosed on a sudden injection of lead.

[stevew]

What jon said. Are you a communist or something Cringer? I'm guessing that this is a sham.

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

"He courted controversy in foreign policy, too, making high-profile visits to Cuba and Iraq, while allegedly flirting with leftist rebels in Colombia and making a huge territorial claim on Guyana."

"Relations with Washington reached a new low when he accused it of "fighting terror with terror" during the war in Afghanistan after 11 September."

"Mr Chavez's "revolution" had little real impact on the lives of ordinary Venezuelans, who still suffer from chronic poverty and widespread unemployment despite the country's oil wealth."

And from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3479113.stm

"Increased unemployment, inflation, poverty and malnutrition ... Raised crime, impunity, and nepotism to much higher levels"

"Attacked and discredited the Supreme Court when it has not ruled in his favour ... Publicly ordered civilian and military authorities to disregard and disobey any court decisions that run contrary to his will"

"Formed alliances with the leaders of rogue states accused of violating human rights and of fomenting terrorism (Iraq, Iran, Libya, and Chavez's close ally, Fidel Castro of Cuba) ... Forged ties with irregular and subversive forces in the region, such as the Colombian guerrillas."

Frankly, the only cause for celebration I can see surrounding this guy would be an annoucement that he had overdosed on a sudden injection of lead.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drm...988578,00.html

"In 1998, Hugo Chavez was elected president with almost 60 percent of the votes, incredibly overthrowing the entrenched and well-financed elite that had controlled the country for decades. That elite has never forgiven him and today is doing everything possible to tumble him. Sadly, the U.S. government and mass media have joined in this very undemocratic effort.

Their accusations have some common themes. First, Chavez is a communist because of his close association with Cuba. Is George W. Bush a communist because the U.S. has close ties with China?

Chavez's hero is Simon Bolivar, not Marx or Lenin. Bolivar liberated much of South America from the Spaniards, but he was also concerned about another colonial power, saying that "the United States appears to be destined by Providence to plague Latin America with misery in the name of liberty." It is a concern Chavez shares. After the April 2002 coup against him, Condoleezza Rice warned Chavez, not the coup leaders, to "respect constitutional processes."

A second accusation is that Chavez is a dictator and will limit freedom of expression very shortly. This has been said since 1998 when he was just a candidate for the presidency. To date, there is not one deprecating word against Chavez that has not been printed or spoken.

But I have government-censored Venezuelan dailies, before the time of Chavez, with blank pages.

Third, it is said that Chavez opposes the forthcoming Aug. 15 presidential referendum that could oust him from power. The reality is that it is the opposition that rejected the idea of the referendum and has done everything possible to avoid it: the two-day coup; a two-month lockout/strike by big business and by many well-paid executives and workers in the national petroleum industry; and, millions spent on media campaigns against him.

Chavez himself proposed the idea of a presidential referendum midway through the term and has constantly voiced it as the constitutional way to remove him.

Fourth, international news releases often refer to Chavez as "a former lieutenant colonel who led a failed bloody rebellion in 1992." This would be similar to continuously identifying President Bush as "a former National Guard captain who avoided service in Vietnam and had a bout with alcoholism in his youth."

About 12 militants died in the rebellion. What is not mentioned is the multitude that had been shot down on the streets by the Perez government before and after that attempt. Perez was impeached in 1993 and now lives in New York.

A great difference exists between what one reads in the U.S. newspapers and what one hears in the barrios and villages of Venezuela, places where the elite do not tread. Adults are entering literacy programs, senior citizens are at last receiving their pensions, and children are not charged registration to enter the public schools. Health care and housing have improved dramatically.

Is the present government perfect? No, but the country is light years ahead of where it was under those who ruled before and want to control it again. They still have power and money. If you doubt it, just look at most news releases and editorials about Venezuela.

But if you want to know what is really happening in Venezuela, come and look at the eyes of the men the next time Chavez passes by.

Charles Hardy is a free-lance writer living in Venezuela. He is a Wyoming native."

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1182

"--Venezuela remains a democracy.

* Hugo Chavez was elected in both 1998 and 2000 in elections declared free and fair by international observers.

* The opposition controls 48 percent of the seats in Congress and regularly delays or blocks legislation supported by the government.

* The Supreme Court is independent, and has repeatedly ruled against Hugo Chavez, finding his land reform decrees unconstitutional and releasing from prison military officers charged with participating in the 2002 coup.

* The Venezuelan media is completely free, and attacks Chavez in the harshest of terms on a daily basis.

* The opposition regularly holds large, peaceful demonstrations without fear of police harassment. .....................

...................--The opposition blames Chavez for Venezuela's economic woes; in fact, the country fell into economic decline in the 1980s due to mismanagement and corruption. The economy has been no worse under Chávez than under his predecessors. Moreover, the single most economically destructive event in recent Venezuelan history was last year's opposition shutdown of the state oil company, which cost the economy around 14 billions dollars. The economy is growing rapidly right now and the IMF projects an 8.8 percent growth for 2004 (World Economic Outlook Spring 2004).

--The Bush administration supported the 2002 coup against Hugo Chavez. U.S. officials continue to make very hostile statements about the Chavez administration, and have said that they will not accept anything other than a recall referendum, regardless of whether the legal requirements for such a vote have been fulfilled. The administration should declare its support for Venezuela's independent electoral authorities and pledge to abide by their decision. .......................

.................... * Since 1999, the Venezuelan economy has contracted 14 percent, not 25 percent as the editorial claims. Most of this contraction is due to the three months shutdown of the state oil company in 2002-2003, which was organized by the opposition. The rest comes from instability in which the opposition played a major role, e.g. the 2002 coup d'etat, other strikes, and capital flight (some of which was deliberate and political or influenced by negative media reports).

* The Post's editorial claims that Hugo Chávez appointed the National Electoral Council (CNE) that is overseeing the recall process. This is false. The CNE was appointed by Venezuela's Supreme Court, which is independent. Both the government and the opposition expressed satisfaction when the electoral authorities were chosen.

* The Post's editorial says that the signature verification process scheduled for this weekend will be two days long. This is false. It will be three days long.

* According to the Post's editorial, Hugo Chávez "tried to exclude" international observers from the Carter Center and the Organization of American States last week. This is false. Hugo Chávez had nothing to do with the dispute between electoral authorities and the CNE last week, and never publicly commented on it.

* The Post's editorial expresses concern about " intimidation by government goon squads" during the signature confirmation period this weekend. In fact, there has been no systematic intimidation of voters or petition signers since Hugo Chávez took office in 1999. "

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1296

"National Institute of Statistics (INE) president Elias Eljuri estimates that poverty in Venezuela, as measured by income, decreased this year."

"In 1997, the poverty rate was 55.6%, based on income, and extreme poverty was calculated at 25.5%. These figures dropped in 1999 and 2000.

An INE report given to Venpres by Eljuri titled “Indicators of Living Conditions” reveals the following trend: Based on statistics collected in the second half of each year, the poverty rate went from 48.1% in 1997, to 43.9% in 1998, to 42% in 1999, to 40.4% in 2000, to 39% in 2001. The extreme poverty rate fell to 14% in 2001.

After the April 2002 coup, the poverty rate grew slightly to 41.5%, but the effects of the coup were felt more severely by the end of the year during the petroleum strike, when poverty surged to 48.6%.

The strike that took place during the first trimester of 2003 generated losses of more than US $10 billion, and that had a drastic effect on employment. Unemployment reached 20.7% in February of 2003, and this undoubtedly resulted in the peak poverty level, measured at 54%. Extreme poverty reached 25.1%. "



Now for what I have to say, because I can find stuff on the internet all day that argue what your BBC reports say.

So what if he has "relationships" with Cuba and Iraq, so did we at one point. Reagan helped made Iraq, and you probably love him, but Chavez can not go there to check the place out 1 time, which is all i have ever seen about him and Iraq, 1 trip. As for the columbian rebels........

"Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez announced on Venezuelan radio on March 31 that: "A short while ago, I ordered an air force operation and we bombed an area where we detected the presence of a group" of Colombian irregular forces along the border. The Colombian 'irregulars' had attacked a Venezuelan military post, after which Chavez ordered the raid last Thursday. Chavez stressed that Caracas would not tolerate Colombian armed groups entering Venezuela. "Neither paramilitaries nor rebels nor the armed forces of Colombia have authorization, nor will they have it, to be on Venezuelan territory," he said." - What is the Colombian Army doing Attacking Venezuela? by Justin Podur April 03, 2003 on ZNet.


As far as the poverty, its a little hard when you have a U.S. backed opposition group attempting coup's, shutting down the oil industry, and starting general strikes to improve a country.

And one more thing, there are people in this country who did not like the "war" in Afghanistan, should we all be "overdosed on a sudden injection of lead." That is pretty damn close minded of you.

The U.S. government and companies have helped support the opposition against Chavez. The opposition has helped to bring the country almost to their knees because they want Chavez out so bad. Yet you are ready to put all the blame on Chavez? I hope your beliefs come from more then just those BBC stories...........

[Bee]

Holy crap, I know Charlie Hardy! My wife served as a missionary with him for several years in Caracas. He was at our wedding and sends us letters and cards all the time. I didn't realize he did freelance writing. Thanks for the link Cringer.

Just as a note, we know a ton of people in Caracas and Charlie's sentiments are pretty much the same as everyone we know. Chavez may not be perfect, but he's a helluva lot better than anyone else they've had in a long time. And the lifes of the poor are much improved since he's taken over according to everyone we've talked with.

[Cringer]

Wow. What were the odds of that happening........

[JonInMiddleGA]

Cringer, I don't really need an awful lot to figure out Chavez.

http://www.ptb.be/scripts/article.ph...ABBU&obid=7295
"Chavez has a record of bucking the United States and has hailed Libya as a "model of participatory democracy."

The Venezuelan president's visit Thursday to Baghdad was the first by a foreign head of state since before the 1991 Persian Gulf War and was condemned by Washington as bestowing undue credibility on Iraqi President Saddam Hussein. At his next stop in Indonesia, Chavez called for the lifting of U.N. sanctions against Iraq in place since its 1990 invasion of Kuwait, which led to the Gulf War.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/So...residente.html
"To his opposition, Chavez's worst crime has been forging a close relationship with Fidel Castro. The two leaders have sung duets in public and played baseball together, and while these acts are not prohibited by international law, they have provoked indignation."

"From the beginning, the president has been an outspoken opponent of U.S. military aid to Colombia. The aid has assisted the Colombian military and police in their efforts to fight the rebels and destroy the coca fields that help finance the FARC's thirty-eight-year war against the state."

How much more does anyone need?

He picked his friends, he picks his positions. If those choices leave him on the wrong end of a bullet, I only see that as the product of his choices. And not one bit of it as any sort of tragedy.

[Bee]

Originally Posted by Cringer

Wow. What were the odds of that happening........

Yep, that was weird when I read his name. I thought it might be someone else until I went to the link and it mentioned his missionary work.

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Cringer, I don't really need an awful lot to figure out Chavez.

No, apperently not. You seem to make up your mind on very little infromation in fact. That is your problem I guess, but I think it is a little scary that you keep mentioning he should be killed.

I wonder why it is SO horrible that he visited Iraq? I will once again point out that we helped make Iraq what it is, we helped make Saddam, but then we decide he is evil because he decides to no longer listen to our leaders and invades Kuwait, and after that point no one is allowed to talk to Iraq? Because it is not what the U.S. wishes? Do you even know why Chavez went to Iraq?

http://www.seacoastonline.com/2000news/8_11_w2.htm

"Only the United States and Britain, leaders of the efforts to isolate Baghdad, spoke out strongly against the visit. Kuwait's official silence has been interpreted there as a sign the nation Saddam invaded in 1990 accepted Chavez's stop in Iraq as a protocol visit to an OPEC member.

Iraq laid out the red carpet for Chavez, trumpeting his visit as a breach of its isolation and a slap in the face for Washington. Venezuelan officials insist the visit was not about international politics, but oil, the country's main export.

``We spoke at length on how to boost the role of OPEC,'' Chavez said. "

and

"Though oil was Chavez's purpose, a Venezuelan deputy foreign minister traveling with him said Chavez also offered Saddam his support for ending U.N. sanctions against Iraq.

``President Chavez affirmed the Venezuelan position supporting any accord against any kind of boycott or sanctions that are applied against Iraq or any other country in the world,'' Jorge Valero said.

Calls to lift the sanctions against Iraq have grown in recent years along with concern they are hurting Iraqi civilians far more than the government. "

Wow, that is horrible. What a bad bad man.....

[url]http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/venezuela/chavez-gadhafi.htm[/ur]

"President Hugo Chavez met with Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi in Tripoli on Sunday to discuss sliding oil prices, the official Libyan news agency JANA reported. Chavez was in Tripoli for a few hours before heading to Brussels, Belgium, a presidential palace spokeswoman said. No other details were immediately available about Chavez's visit to Libya, which was a last-minute addition to a 17-day tour of North Africa and Europe.

On Saturday, Chavez visited Algeria, where he discussed the oil market with Algerian President Abdelaziz Bouteflika. Chavez said he is on a campaign to defend oil prices, which have fallen steadily this year despite three output cuts by the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries.

Chavez said he may also visit Iran and Saudi Arabia during his foreign tour. Venezuela, Algeria, Libya, Iran, and Saudi Arabia are all OPEC members. "We agree on the need to take extraordinary measures to confront the threat of an eventual fall in oil prices," Chavez said after meeting with Bouteflika. "

Wow, one more reason to have him dead I guess....


And as far as Columbia and FARC goes, well is pretty much another arguement. I agree the U.S. needs to get its nose out of Columbia......From what I read there have been many accusations against Chavez and him supporting FARC, but there seems to be little evidence of this. I also found claims that i already put in my previous post that he has attacked rebels/paramilitary crossing into Venezuela, so which is it? I don't know but I also know tht is one screwed up situation in Columbia and all sides are pretty much wrong at this point.

He picked his friends, he picks his positions. If those choices leave him on the wrong end of a bullet, I only see that as the product of his choices. And not one bit of it as any sort of tragedy.

Wow, did you say this about Reagan too? What about Rumsfeld and Cheney? They picked some pretty good friends in the 80's.......Do they deserve to die?

[sterlingice]

As a neutral third party who is pretty ignorant of what's going on there, I've gotta say Cringer has been a bit more convincing because, to me, it looks like this guy (Chavez) cares most about arranging oil prices since it's his country's main industry despite what else is going on in the world. Basically, "I don't care what the rest of the world is doing with this guy, my country is in the shitter so I'm going to do anything I can to fix oil prices to help my country". Certainly far from perfect but understandable.

SI

[JonInMiddleGA]

Cringer, clearly we just see this thing totally opposite.

We're talking about a guy who cites Libya as a paragon of democracy.
You're okay with that, I'm not.

I see nothing more than yet another far-left/socialist varmint who the world would be a better place without. You apparently see something else, although as I said, I can't for the life of me understand that.

And at this point I've grown a bit weary of trying.

So you send the guy a congratulatory telegram, or a nice box of Brach's or whatever, and I'll hope somebody manages to poison the cherry cordials before he eats 'em.

[yabanci]

Congratulations to Chavez and Venezuela.

Dick Cheney, Hugo Chavez and Bill Clinton's Band
Why Venezuela has Voted Again for Their 'Negro e Indio' President
by Greg Palast


There's so much BS and baloney thrown around about Venezuela that I may be violating some rule of US journalism by providing some facts. Let's begin with this: 77% of Venezuela's farmland is owned by 3% of the population, the 'hacendados.'

I met one of these farmlords in Caracas at an anti-Chavez protest march. Oddest demonstration I've ever seen: frosted blondes in high heels clutching designer bags, screeching, "Chavez - dic-ta-dor!" The plantation owner griped about the "socialismo" of Chavez, then jumped into his Jaguar convertible.

That week, Chavez himself handed me a copy of the "socialist" manifesto that so rattled the man in the Jag. It was a new law passed by Venezuela's Congress which gave land to the landless. The Chavez law transferred only fields from the giant haciendas which had been left unused and abandoned.

This land reform, by the way, was promoted to Venezuela in the 1960s by that Lefty radical, John F. Kennedy. Venezuela's dictator of the time agreed to hand out land, but forgot to give peasants title to their property.

But Chavez won't forget, because the mirror reminds him. What the affable president sees in his reflection, beyond the ribbons of office, is a "negro e indio" -- a "Black and Indian" man, dark as a cola nut, same as the landless and, until now, the hopeless. For the first time in Venezuela's history, the 80% Black-Indian population elected a man with skin darker than the man in the Jaguar.

So why, with a huge majority of the electorate behind him, twice in elections and today in a referendum, is Hugo Chavez in hot water with our democracy-promoting White House?

Maybe it's the oil. Lots of it. Chavez sits atop a reserve of crude that rivals Iraq's. And it's not his presidency of Venezuela that drives the White House bananas, it was his presidency of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries, OPEC. While in control of the OPEC secretariat, Chavez cut a deal with our maximum leader of the time, Bill Clinton, on the price of oil. It was a 'Goldilocks' plan. The price would not be too low, not too high; just right, kept between $20 and $30 a barrel.

But Dick Cheney does not like Clinton nor Chavez nor their band. To him, the oil industry's (and Saudi Arabia's) freedom to set oil prices is as sacred as freedom of speech is to the ACLU. I got this info, by the way, from three top oil industry lobbyists.

Why should Chavez worry about what Dick thinks? Because, said one of the oil men, the Veep in his bunker, not the pretzel-chewer in the White House, "runs energy policy in the United States."

And what seems to have gotten our Veep's knickers in a twist is not the price of oil, but who keeps the loot from the current band-busting spurt in prices. Chavez had his Congress pass another oil law, the "Law of Hydrocarbons," which changes the split. Right now, the oil majors - like PhillipsConoco - keep 84% of the proceeds of the sale of Venezuela oil; the nation gets only 16%.

Chavez wanted to double his Treasury's take to 30%. And for good reason. Landless, hungry peasants have, over decades, drifted into Caracas and other cities, building million-person ghettos of cardboard shacks and open sewers. Chavez promised to do something about that.

And he did. "Chavez gives them bread and bricks," one Venezuelan TV reporter told me. The blonde TV newscaster, in the middle of a publicity shoot, said the words "pan y ladrillos" with disdain, making it clear that she never touched bricks and certainly never waited in a bread line.

But to feed and house the darker folk in those bread and brick lines, Chavez would need funds, and the 16% slice of the oil pie wouldn't do it. So the President of Venezuela demanded 30%, leaving Big Oil only 70%. Suddenly, Bill Clinton's ally in Caracas became Mr. Cheney's -- and therefore, Mr. Bush's -- enemy.

So began the Bush-Cheney campaign to "Floridate" the will of the Venezuela electorate. It didn't matter that Chavez had twice won election. Winning most of the votes, said a White House spokesman, did not make Chavez' government "legitimate." Hmmm. Secret contracts were awarded by our Homeland Security spooks to steal official Venezuela voter lists. Cash passed discreetly from the US taxpayer, via the so-called 'Endowment for Democracy,' to the Chavez-haters running today's "recall" election.

A brilliant campaign of placing stories about Chavez' supposed unpopularity and "dictatorial" manner seized US news and op-ed pages, ranging from the San Francisco Chronicle to the New York Times.

But some facts just can't be smothered in propaganda ink. While George Bush can appoint the government of Iraq and call it "sovereign," the government of Venezuela is appointed by its people. And the fact is that most people in this slum-choked land don't drive Jaguars or have their hair tinted in Miami. Most look in the mirror and see someone "negro e indio," as dark as their President Hugo.

The official CIA handbook on Venezuela says that half the nation's farmers own only 1% of the land. They are the lucky ones, as more peasants owned nothing. That is, until their man Chavez took office. Even under Chavez, land redistribution remains more a promise than an accomplishment. But today, the landless and homeless voted their hopes, knowing that their man may not, against the armed axis of local oligarchs and Dick Cheney, succeed for them. But they are convinced he will never forget them.

And that's a fact.

Greg Palast's reports from Venezuela for BBC Television's Newsnight and the Guardian papers of Britain earned a California State University Journalism School "Project Censored" award for 2002.

[Cringer]

Well, if you want to end it there then fine, I leave for work in a few hours anyways. I just kept hoping you could give me a real reason that the man should be dead, as you keep wishing to have done.

I do not feel Chavez is some great leader of our time, but he is no "varmit" either. The major media here/europe gives a distorted story. Republicans can understand that can't they? They always say the major media is against them right? So it can not be true for others as well?

Oh well.................hope I don't end up dead now.......

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by yabanci

Congratulations to Chavez and Venezuela.

If you're into socialism, it is indeed a groovy day

[DanGarion]

I have a number of friends that are Venezuelan who now live in the US because of this dumbass. I can't believe that anyone would support him.

Oh well...

[Huckleberry]

In a country that has reached the level of stratification that Venezuela is currently dealing with, socialist ideals will nearly always win a truly democratic and non-corrupt election. What doubt is there in that?

Socialism is not a desirable system of government. On that we agree. However, the right of the people to choose their government should never be infringed. With that in mind, this election result is good. It is perfectly logical that Chavéz would win a vote given Venezuela's current state. Any other result would be questionable. We can only hope that someday that nation will pull itself up out of its current mess. When a greater total of the people there are out of extreme poverty, socialism will have run its course and be unnecessary. And the people will almost certainly agree.

Capitalism is good. Capitalism that has been tarnished by corruption and criminal activities that have produced such a disparity between the classes as exists there now is not good. And short-term socialism has its place to rectify such a history of corruption and criminal acts. And in a truly democratically elected government, the people will let you know when that time has come. It appears they have done so in Venezuela.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

And in a truly democratically elected government,

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."
attributed to Alexander Tyler

[stevew]

Originally Posted by dangarion

I have a number of friends that are Venezuelan who now live in the US because of this dumbass. I can't believe that anyone would support him.

Oh well...

Yeah, i have a friend too who is in a similar situation. He pays all of his mothers living expenses over there and it has gotten rediculously expensive for him as of late. I knew Chavez would win when the polls stayed open late. This reaks of a mob influenced union election.

[KeyserSoze]

My opinion, and I´ve a few friends in boths sides of Venezuelan groups.

1- Chavez is the legitimate president. You can like him. You can´t. But he is the president.
2- Chavez is a populist left winged president. He has the support of the Venezuelan low classes. He has a bitter confrontation against middle and upper classes.
3- Actually Venezuelan economy is based in the high spend (and direct helps) of state whose incomes are the oil profits. It´s a very delicate scheme.
4- Chavez should make an arragement with the opposition. A broken country cannot survive an develop. But this is their election.

[judicial clerk]

-I generally agree with Huck and Kevin Spacey;

-I wish U.S. foereign policy was a a little more idealistic;

-I hope this guy is willing to give up power when his term ends. One of the best things about George Washigton, and something that sets us apart, was how he facilitated a smooth transition from one leader to the next and set an example for limiting the term of a presidency. man we are lucky.

-It is exciting how, every once in a while, a world leader steps up does what is right. Two examples that come to mind are the leader of the Sandinista in nicaragua who pledged to leave office if he lost national election for his position. He lost and low and behold, the guy gave up power. another example is Gorbachev refusing to use the red army to crush dissident protests in East Germany and Lithuania, i think. Maybe Chavez is pulling the wool over my eyes, but it seems that he is willing to stand by democratic principles.

-I strenuously prefer capitalism to communism or socialism for economic ideaology, but I think that (constitutional) democracy as a political idealogy is more important to the wellbeing of a nation than any choice of economic ideaology.

-I hope some of this makes sense

[Huckleberry]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."
attributed to Alexander Tyler

I agree with that. Which makes me even more curious as to why you're so quick to assail the Venezuelan people for confirming Chavéz as their President. All nations are on the same circle, just some at different points. The Venezuelan people are responding the same way that countless others have. It looks like the United States is in the middle of the transition I emboldened to me.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

It looks like the United States is in the middle of the transition I emboldened to me.

Sadly, I think it looks more like the "from apathy to dependency" phase at this point.