PING: Giants Fans

[Sharpieman]

Well it looks like Sabean and the Giants are in the market for a deal after all. Three guys that could in a Giants uniform in a few days, including Jose Mesa, Jeremy Burnitz and Shawn Estes. Hopefully, they can get all three, but that is impossible. If they get 2, it will be Mesa and one other. I would rather see Burnitz and Mesa, Estes just scares me. So here is the deal, Mesa was claimed off of waivers on August 26th by the Cubs, but the Giants had a lower record then them, so they made a claim for him. The Pirates were going to make a deal with the Cubs for Mesa, but now the Giants have a chance to do so. Mesa would be a big boast to the Giants bullpen that is struggling. Estes or Burnitz could be Giants if the Rockies make a deal with the G-men. We'll see. Again, hopefully the Giants get Burnitz, because if he does good the rest of the year, maybe the Giants will make an offer for him next year. Estes is basically a rented player, I don't think the Giants want him next year.

[The_herd]

Mesa said he'd go home if traded from Pittsburg. Apparently he actually likes playing for them.

[Philliesfan980]

Originally Posted by The_herd

Mesa said he'd go home if traded from Pittsburg. Apparently he actually likes playing for them.

It's perfect for him. No pressure.

[clintl]

None of them excite me much. Burnitz is having a good season, but it's in Colorado, and he has not really been very good in recent years. My guess is that he won't be very good at SBC Park. Estes has become pretty close to worthless. Even in Colorado, a 6.05 ERA is horrible. Mesa was a big disappointment the first time the Giants had him, and now he's old in addition to being overrated.

[Sharpieman]

True about Burnitz, but he's a good enough batter to help in the lineup. The only 2 good things about Estes is that its a 6.05 ERA in Colorado and he's like 6-0 against the NL west. Plus, the last time we saw Estes as a Giant it wasn't in pitcher friendly SBC.

[Sharpieman]

Originally Posted by Philliesfan980

It's perfect for him. No pressure.

lol

[Bad-example]

I believe Mesa would be worth more to S.F. than Herges at this point, if Mesa is willing to play for the Giants. But yes, it is hard to get excited about any of those 3 players.

[Brillig]

It's Sydney Ponson all over again. Game over, man, game over!

[/flashback]

[Crapshoot]

umm- with a bullpen with an ARP of -43.5, me thinks Sabes should acquire any goddamn reliever in baseball- he has the worst bullpen of any playoff contender, by far, and he cant acquire even goddamn medicority for the pen ? Burnitz and or Estes are stupid- a Scott Sullivan or hell, anyone with help that shit hole of a pen.

[clintl]

Yeah, Mesa would probably help more than any of them, and would improve what they have. I just hope they don't give up much for him, because he's not worth much.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by The_herd

Mesa said he'd go home if traded from Pittsburg. Apparently he actually likes playing for them.

Shit, anyone on this board would love to get paid a million or more to close games that dont matter for an irrelevant team.

[clintl]

Originally Posted by Sharpieman

Plus, the last time we saw Estes as a Giant it wasn't in pitcher friendly SBC.

Actually, it was. He was on the 2000 division winners (and had the infamous ankle sprain in the playoffs).

[cthomer5000]

putting Kurt Warner in the starting rotation seems like a questionable move.

[EagleFan]

I thought wasting those picks and money on Manning was a questionable move.

[Sharpieman]

Originally Posted by clintl

Actually, it was. He was on the 2000 division winners (and had the infamous ankle sprain in the playoffs).

oh thats right, he was 15-6 that year with a 4.26 ERA. And the next year at SBC he was 9-8 with a 4.02 ERA. So, he was a combined 24-14. Not bad at at all. Maybe I wouldn't mind him coming back.

[SackAttack]

As a Dodger fan, I would love to see the Giants wind up with Jeromy Burnitz.

That is all.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Sharpieman

oh thats right, he was 15-6 that year with a 4.26 ERA. And the next year at SBC he was 9-8 with a 4.02 ERA. So, he was a combined 24-14. Not bad at at all. Maybe I wouldn't mind him coming back.

W-L = irrelevant.

[Sharpieman]

Originally Posted by Aadik

W-L = irrelevant.

Not really, take Kirk Rueter for example. He may not have the best WHIP or ERA or any other 3 or 4 letter accrinom (sp?) but in his career he has pitched wins, thats why he's still in the MLB. Of course, this season he's sucked. If your into other stats though. Shawn Estes had a combined 4.14 ERA when he was playing for the Giants in his two years at SBC. Also in those two years he had 248 strikeouts. Estes isn't the same player from those years. But look at the Giants staff, they suck. Sadly they need Shawn Estes. I wouldn't mind having Burnitz either. He's OK. We need power besides Bonds anyways.

[sooner333]

I'm a Giants fan, and I'll say that I cringe every time I look in the paper and Rueter pitches. Especially this year.

That being said, if the Giants can grab Mesa I'll be really excited, because the bullpen is worse than the local high school's. Estes, I'm not so sure about...because he won't start over Reuter (meaning Kirk won't be taken out of the rotation). Therefore, you have Schmidt, Williams (when healthy), Lowry, Reuter, and Tomko. I'm not sure how much better Estes is than Tomko...but if Williams isn't back soon, I'd rather have him in there than Franklin or that Hennessey guy.

[Vince]

Originally Posted by Sharpieman

accrinom (sp?)

Acronym.

Anyways...any of these guys probably help our team, as sad as it is. Obviously, as many people have pointed out -- Mesa would be the optimum help. Estes...well, I always liked him, the way that you always like that dog that you get that won't stop peeing in the house and it won't listen to you. It's a great dog...except it sucks at being a dog. That's how Estes is. You want to like him, because he's a good starting pitcher...except he sucks at being a starting pitcher. He had a year that made everyone love him...and then he sucked. Burnitz...well, all we need is another average OF. That would make our team perfect. But realistically, I think Burnitz is the worst addition to our team we could make. If you're not going to get a consistent bat, why get a bat at all? We've got enough inconsistent bats (Alfonzo, Snow, Grissom, etc). Adding one more isn't going to help. But giving another option (even if it's Estes out of the pen) to our pitching staff is a great idea.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Sharpieman

Not really, take Kirk Rueter for example. He may not have the best WHIP or ERA or any other 3 or 4 letter accrinom (sp?) but in his career he has pitched wins, thats why he's still in the MLB. Of course, this season he's sucked. If your into other stats though. Shawn Estes had a combined 4.14 ERA when he was playing for the Giants in his two years at SBC. Also in those two years he had 248 strikeouts. Estes isn't the same player from those years. But look at the Giants staff, they suck. Sadly they need Shawn Estes. I wouldn't mind having Burnitz either. He's OK. We need power besides Bonds anyways.

umm, no. All that proves is that he's gotten far more run support in his career- his pitching didnt inspire the Giants to score more runs for him than they did Russ Ortiz. W-L is an idiotic measure that attempts to judge every pitcher on a sliding scale.

[clintl]

Originally Posted by Aadik

umm, no. All that proves is that he's gotten far more run support in his career- his pitching didnt inspire the Giants to score more runs for him than they did Russ Ortiz. W-L is an idiotic measure that attempts to judge every pitcher on a sliding scale.

OK, I know there's a sabremetric case for this kind of assertion, but the reality is that over many, many years, the Giants did particularly well with Reuter on the mound. I don't think that "luck," which is the only sabremetric explanation as far as I can tell, can account for something that was repeated year after year. Thus, I think what we are left with is that Reuter is a phenomenon that sabremetric study hasn't been able to explain yet, but an explanation for his success does exist, and that he really is a better pitcher than sabremetric measures (in terms of value to his team) suggest he should be. Or was, I should say. He sucks this year. I don't really completely buy the whole W-L record is irrelevant argument, any more than I completely buy the McCracken theory.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by clintl

OK, I know there's a sabremetric case for this kind of assertion, but the reality is that over many, many years, the Giants did particularly well with Reuter on the mound. I don't think that "luck," which is the only sabremetric explanation as far as I can tell, can account for something that was repeated year after year. Thus, I think what we are left with is that Reuter is a phenomenon that sabremetric study hasn't been able to explain yet, but an explanation for his success does exist, and that he really is a better pitcher than sabremetric measures (in terms of value to his team) suggest he should be. Or was, I should say. He sucks this year. I don't really completely buy the whole W-L record is irrelevant argument, any more than I completely buy the McCracken theory.

I agree- Reuter has always stood out for his DIPS defying ways- but it may be because he pitches very well with runners on base (BP did a study on it). I dont think you can realistically argue that Rueter is responsible for the Giants scoring more runs in his stars over the years than they did for others- it makes little sense, since his offensive contributions were almost non-existent. The pitching to the score arguement was attempted and failed with Jack Morris- I find it unfair to credit him for work that was not his (the higher run scoring rate).

[clintl]

Basically, I agree with that. I looked at Reuter's stats, though, and I think there's a very good sabremetric case for why he has not pitched very well the last couple of years - his K/9 ratio, which was never very good, has been in steady decline. In his prime, it was between 4 and 5. The last two seasons, it's dipped below 3. It wouldn't surprise me to see Reuter become one of those one-batter lefty bullpen specialists before long, since that's what happens to old lefty control pitchers when they can't be effective starters any more.

[Hammer755]

Wow, it looks like you guys have found the NL version of Andy Pettitte.

Here are Rueter's rankings in Run Support since 1997, with his record & ERA+ in parentheses.

1997 - #6 (13-6, 120)
1998 - #1 (16-9, 93)
1999 - #3 (15-10, 76)
2000 - #11 (11-9, 108)
2001 - #13 (14-12, 91)
2002 - #15 (14-8, 117)
2003 - #NAA (10-5, 95)

Also, as clint alluded to, his K/BB ratio has plummeted the past 2 seasons.

And, as a bonus, here is the Baseball Prospectus article that Aadik mentioned before about the Jack Morris 'Pitching to the Score' study.

[Sharpieman]

Well here's an update, the Pirates pulled Mesa back off of waivers and the Giants are still trying to work out a deal with the Rockies for both Estes and Burnitz. However, it looks like Burnitz won't be in a Giants uniform because he and the Giants aren't agreeing on a contract.

[Sharpieman]

dola, we will know whether Estes and Burnitz are Giants by tomorrow.

[MrBug708]

How'd today's game turn out?

[Ksyrup]

The Giants should stay far away from Burnitz. He's OK for an end-of-season rental, but they are wise not to sign him long-term. Especially in that ballpark.

The Giants do need a reliever - and did a couple of months ago, which is why I was surprised they dealt Rodriguez to the Phillies. Stupid move.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

The Giants should stay far away from Burnitz. He's OK for an end-of-season rental, but they are wise not to sign him long-term. Especially in that ballpark.

The Giants do need a reliever - and did a couple of months ago, which is why I was surprised they dealt Rodriguez to the Phillies. Stupid move.

talent wise win- but they weakened the part that needed the most help, which was undeniably stupid. Dont get me started on the blowpen..

[Ksyrup]

...and another bullpen meltdown.

[Vince]

Originally Posted by Aadik

talent wise win- but they weakened the part that needed the most help, which was undeniably stupid. Dont get me started on the blowpen..

I agree that it looks stupid now...but how about conspiracy theories floating around that the Giants are looking to make a big move for next season, one of Bonds' last? Rodriguez was slated to make $3+ million next year, I believe...