Man arrested in New York.. for Under-Tipping???

[SirFozzie]

I love New York

LAKE GEORGE, N.Y. --Humberto A. Taveras put his money where his mouth is and ended up arrested, accused of leaving an inadequate tip at a restaurant.

Taveras, 41, faces a misdemeanor charge of theft of services after he and his fellow diners argued with Soprano's Italian and American Grill managers over the legality of requiring an 18 percent tip for large parties.

"They chased us down like a bunch of criminals," Taveras said. "It killed our weekend."

Taveras and eight others had pizza at the restaurant in this resort village Sunday night. He said they weren't completely satisfied with the food and left a tip of under 10 percent. Taveras said they also were not told of a mandatory 18 percent gratuity for parties of six or more and did not see notice of it on their menus.

Restaurant owner Joe Soprano said all the menus have the notice, and the waitress informed the group. He said he did not choose to pursue charges because of the money, but because Taveras' group was obnoxious.

"It's unfortunate it has come to this, but this guy was rude and abrasive. They practically threw food at us," Soprano said.

Taveras plans to fight the charge. The arrest raises the issue of whether the gratuities that restaurants automatically tack on for serving large groups are legally enforceable debts.

[Hurst2112]

Damn Italians

[wade moore]

This sounds funny...

But this could be a huge case I would think.. this is something that I have always had mixed feelings about, but never really questioned the legality of...

[SirFozzie]

There's a Sopranos joke in there.. but I won't go there

[WSUCougar]

I remember hearing once (many years ago...long before most of you were born, and...oh, where was I?) that you could "legally" walk out of restaurant without paying for your meal and there was nothing they could do about it. At the time I blew it off as mythical hokum. But for some reason I just remembered it. Anyone know if there's any truth to it?

[Philliesfan980]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

I remember hearing once (many years ago...long before most of you were born, and...oh, where was I?) that you could "legally" walk out of restaurant without paying for your meal and there was nothing they could do about it. At the time I blew it off as mythical hokum. But for some reason I just remembered it. Anyone know if there's any truth to it?

Nope, you can't do that. I worked in a resteraunt for 6 years during my high school/college days.

Good for the manager, I'm glad that someone is showing these obnoxious italians (the worst type of people to wait on), that they have to follow the rules. It clearly stated 18% for large parties, so either you pay it , or don't eat there.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by Philliesfan980

Good for the manager, I'm glad that someone is showing these obnoxious italians (the worst type of people to wait on), that they have to follow the rules. It clearly stated 18% for large parties, so either you pay it , or don't eat there.

The worst! And he's waited on millions of 'em!

[sovereignstar]

Originally Posted by Philliesfan980

Nope, you can't do that. I worked in a resteraunt for 6 years during my high school/college days.

Good for the manager, I'm glad that someone is showing these obnoxious italians (the worst type of people to wait on), that they have to follow the rules. It clearly stated 18% for large parties, so either you pay it , or don't eat there.

Where does it say anything about the group of people being Italian?

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Philliesfan980

I'm glad that someone is showing these obnoxious italians (the worst type of people to wait on), that they have to follow the rules.

Wow. You're an idiot.

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

Where does it say anything about the group of people being Italian?

I think what he meant to say was:

Damn Hispanics with names of former Pittsburgh Pirate shortstops! They're the worst!

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by Philliesfan980

Nope, you can't do that. I worked in a resteraunt for 6 years during my high school/college days.

Good for the manager, I'm glad that someone is showing these obnoxious italians (the worst type of people to wait on), that they have to follow the rules. It clearly stated 18% for large parties, so either you pay it , or don't eat there.

Your implosion begins..............NOW.

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Humberto A. Taveras put his money where his mouth is and ended up arrested, accused of leaving an inadequate tip at a restaurant./b]

Hell Fuckin' Yeah...

[Philliesfan980]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Your implosion begins..............NOW.

Oh please. Stop being so sensitive. I stand by what I said, and I think I've seen enough of a sample size to be considered reliable.

I never said that I hate Italians. I never said that I dislike Italians. All I said was that Italians were the worst group of people to wait on.

*EDIT*

And when I used the word "these" it was referring to "obnoxious" (which the author used in the original story) italians. So incase you didn't understand the statement actually reads.

"Obnoxious Italians are the worst group of people to wait on".

So shove it.

[sovereignstar]

[WSUCougar]

Say hello to my little friend!

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by Philliesfan980

Oh please. Stop being so sensitive. I stand by what I said, and I think I've seen enough of a sample size to be considered reliable.

I never said that I hate Italians. I never said that I dislike Italians. All I said was that Italians were the worst group of people to wait on.

*EDIT*

And when I used the word "these" it was referring to "obnoxious" (which the author used in the original story) italians. So incase you didn't understand the statement actually reads.

"Obnoxious Italians are the worst group of people to wait on".

So shove it.

I'm not being sensitive, I could care less how you feel, I just think it's fun to watch you say stupid things.

[WSUCougar]

prej·u·dice (n.)

1. An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.
2. The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions.
3. Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion

[stevew]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

When did Cubans enter this discussion?

[kcchief19]

Wow. I don't know if you have good footing to impune an entire nationality. Plus, I've re-read the story -- where does it say the DINERS were Italian? Sounds like you're making a rush to judgement there.

I say good for them. Some servers are fine and provide excellent service regardless, but I've been in too many situations where the server realizes there is a fixed tip and blows us off. If the service was lousy, expect a lousy tip.

When we were in Colorado I read about a dispute there because a growing number of restaurants are charging servers a fee for tips left on credit cards -- for example, if the credit card processing fee is 5 percent, the restaurant is holding 5 percent back from the servers. It's apparently against the law, but apparently is poorly enforced and the restaurants have been doing without informing the servers, so many of them didn't even know it was happening.

[sovereignstar]

Originally Posted by stevew

When did Cubans enter this discussion?

shhh

[Philliesfan980]

Blah, this isn't worth arguing over. I retract all comments.

[Butter]

Humberto is the #2 Italian name overall.

#1, you ask?

You guessed it: Eli.

[Subby]

I totally think the 1000+ Italians you waited on is a significant sample size.

When someone pipes up and tries to say that is less than one-tenth of one percent of all Italians, you tell them to take their fancy math and shove it!!!

[sovereignstar]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Humberto is the #2 Italian name overall.

#1, you ask?

You guessed it: Eli.

Entering shaky ground. Taveras is a very popular Dominican last name.

[Philliesfan980]

Originally Posted by Subby

I totally think the 1000+ Italians you waited on is a significant sample size.

When someone pipes up and tries to say that is less than one-tenth of one percent of all Italians, you tell them to take their fancy math and shove it!!!

Haha. Point taken. I should just refrain from posting in "Tipping" related threads. Just feel very strongly about various issues with it.

[SunDancer]

Originally Posted by Philliesfan980

Nope, you can't do that. I worked in a resteraunt for 6 years during my high school/college days.

Good for the manager, I'm glad that someone is showing these obnoxious italians (the worst type of people to wait on), that they have to follow the rules. It clearly stated 18% for large parties, so either you pay it , or don't eat there.

Agree, but you cannot chase someone outside unless your 110% they are the people who ate, and they did not pay. If your wrong, you could face a lawsuit.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by Philliesfan980

Haha. Point taken. I should just refrain from posting in "Tipping" related threads. Just feel very strongly about various issues with it.

Hehehe...just giving you a hard time...I feel just as strongly about Maryland drivers.

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by SunDancer

Agree, but you cannot chase someone outside unless your 110% they are the people who ate, and they did not pay. If your wrong, you could face a lawsuit.

Or you could wind up getting run over...

http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/nation/6341546.htm

At my work you can get fired for going outside after a guest who is trying to walk their check...

[sachmo71]

I was told by many a manager that gratuities for large parties are NOT legally binding. I don't know if this is actually a law in Texas, or if the manager just wanted to get out of having to deal with a customer, but I didn't press it.

I did see a situation where some people tried to leave our resturant without paying because the food was bad, but the manager wouldn't let them. The cops were called, and they made the people pay the bill for the food, not the grat. They said they couldn't make them pay the tip.

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Or you could wind up getting run over...

http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/nation/6341546.htm

At my work you can get fired for going outside after a guest who is trying to walk their check...

That was such a horrible story.

[Suicane75]

Man, I was a waiter at a restaurant this one time when Jennifer Love Hewit and Sigourny Weaver tried to pull that crap. I was gonna call the cops so they just decided to take me back to their hotel room and make it up to me. Good times.

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

I was told by many a manager that gratuities for large parties are NOT legally binding.

I once saw a large party demand that the grat be taken off of their check (not my table, thank god) and management did it. I'm not sure if it's because they were legally obliged to remove it or if because at the OG management always does whatever the guest wants. Having a guest call corporate and complain about a manager is an easy way for that manager to get fired in the Darden restaurants...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Having a guest call corporate and complain about a manager is an easy way for that manager to get fired in the Darden restaurants...

Good to know, I'm filing that little tidbit away in my memory bank in case I ever need it.

[stevew]

I also did not think that the grat was binding if you got bad service. This seems to be shady.

[Desnudo]

Any half decent restaurant will go out of their way to accomodate a reasonable complaint.

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Man, I was a waiter at a restaurant this one time when Jennifer Love Hewit and Sigourny Weaver tried to pull that crap. I was gonna call the cops so they just decided to take me back to their hotel room and make it up to me. Good times.

Sigourney Weaver?

[sterlingice]

I have a friend who won't eat anywhere with a gratuity. If we have more than 5 people at a place with a gratuity, we'll eat at 2 different tables. It's weird because he works two jobs in food service and I just didn't understand why he didn't like it. His premise being that the guaranteed tips don't provide any incentive to provide good service and he's seen a ton of co-workers who don't give a crap because their tip is guaranteed. So he gets pissed that he has to work his ass off to make maybe 10% while they can screw around and get 15% automatically.

I was always under the impression that the restaurant gets the gratuity but I guess not.

SI

[sachmo71]

The server always got the grat in all of my jobs.

In my mind, if the resturant is going to get an extra charge from the guest, it should be a "service charge" and be calculated completely seperate from the "auto-grat".

The purpose of grats in all of my establishments was to ensure that the server was compensated for losing possibly his whole section of tables to one party. It's supposed to make it easier for the guest, also.

Again, that's not based on any legal fact, just my experience.


sterlingice, I also don't like getting gratted. I guess it's because I would always grat tables that I thought would tip me poorly, or was hoping for the double grat.

[Desnudo]

I like the auto-charge for large parties. Otherwise it's the "We're short $50 because some people can't do remedial math situation."

[General Mike]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I like the auto-charge for large parties. Otherwise it's the "We're short $50 because some people can't do remedial math situation."

The places I've gone where they've had auto tipping always put the mandatory tip on the bill. So did those people, just not leave the total they were supposed to?

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I was always under the impression that the restaurant gets the gratuity but I guess not.

Not at all. I'm not exactly sure how they are disbursed, but there are some serious financial implications to the gratuity-eligible employees:
* Lower minimum wage
* IRS taxes which I believe assume a fixed gratuity percentage rather than counting actual amounts

Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but the tips are an essential part of their income.

[stevew]

One thing to consider is that the server does have a tax liability for your check. If your bill is like 100 bucks, and you dont tip, they are responsible for paying taxes on 12% of that, so roughly they would lose 2 bucks or so by waiting on you. Not a whole lot, but it does add up. But on the other hand, Waitresses and bartenders are among the largest group of tax evaders known to man.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by stevew

One thing to consider is that the server does have a tax liability for your check. If your bill is like 100 bucks, and you dont tip, they are responsible for paying taxes on 12% of that, so roughly they would lose 2 bucks or so by waiting on you. Not a whole lot, but it does add up. But on the other hand, Waitresses and bartenders are among the largest group of tax evaders known to man.

I thought the tax liability was only 8%? Did it go up, or was I just misinformed in the first place?

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by stevew

But on the other hand, Waitresses and bartenders are among the largest group of tax evaders known to man.

What, me not report all my tips? Never...

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

I thought the tax liability was only 8%? Did it go up, or was I just misinformed in the first place?

It may be 8, i just know the last place I worked was 12, so maybe im a bit off.

[stevew]

I wonder if the guy said "Learn to fuckin' type, 'cause if you're expecting me to help out with the rent you're in for a big fuckin' surprise," before he stiffed his waitress.

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

What, me not report all my tips? Never...

Mr. Jeeber, the IRS is on line 2.

[RendeR]

Based on my own experience with a large group of persons (22 of us) going to a decent restaraunt (25 bucks per entree) I have to state that no matter how emphatically a manager or server tries to tell you the auto-tip is required , it is NOT. Gratuities are not binding as part of the bill. if you recieve quality service the establishment expects you to offer at least 15-18 percent as a thanks to the server for handling your group.

My experience was that our servers basicvally ignored us, brought refills and took further orders for appetizers and mixed drinks only when we literally grabbed them to get their attention. When we were ready to pay my friend took the check and asked immediately for the manager, when he arrived my friend demanded (a bit too angrily) to have it removed, or at least reduced to 10 percent due to the piss poor service.

This of course was denied by the manager who immediately started pointing at the notice on the menu. Another of our party pipped in that that is not a legally binding issue, and he'd have his wife (a laywer) contact him to verify it if he cared to walk to the store phone with him.

The Manager took a huge deep breath (literally) and removed the entire tip and thanked us for the patronage.

We actually asked the guy's wife afterward and she said its true, they can try and force it out of you, but as of that time (1992) there was no law on the books that made such notations on menus or otherwise legally binding, you are not required to tip.

Or weren't 12 years go. I just realized how old I am...*sigh*

anyone got solid evidence of a change in this anywhere?

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

Mr. Jeeber, the IRS is on line 2.

Fuck the IRS

[QuikSand]

These stories of restaurant managers ceding to complaints and wiping away the built-in tip don't necessarily prove that the law is on your side. It's certainly possible that they are simply acting with good business sense -- generally it's better to let a group of people leave feeling like someone looked out for them, rather than feeling like they got screwed by everyone involved.

I don't claim to have any particular knowledge about where this falls legally, but it seems to me there is a contractual relationship (or something very close to it) between a patron who looks at a menu and orders things, and the restaurant that provides the menu and then responds to the requests. It might not fit the traditional "offer, acceptance, consideration" model perfectly, but there certainly seems to be an offer (the menu and its contents) and acceptance (placing an order implicitly says you agree to the terms therein)... and it's the lack of actual consideration that is the point here, I reckon. If the menu (or the server) makes it clear that the order will include a certain tip, and the party accepts that and orders -- it sounds like there's en enforcable agreement there, to me.

But I'm told you're always on thin ice without all three legs of contract law -- so this could be completely wrong.