Officer Shoves, Arrests Pregnant Woman Over Loud Call

[stevew]

Between Metro and Cell User, a Disconnect
Officer Shoves, Arrests Pregnant Woman Over Loud Call

By Lyndsey Layton
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, September 28, 2004; Page A01

Sakinah Aaron was walking into the bus area at the Wheaton Metro station several weeks ago, talking loudly on her Motorola cell phone. A little too loudly for Officer George Saoutis of the Metro Transit Police.

The police officer told Aaron, who is five months pregnant, to lower her voice. She told the officer he had no right to tell her how to speak into her cell phone.

Their verbal dispute quickly escalated, and Saoutis grabbed Aaron by the arm and pushed her to the ground. He handcuffed the 23-year-old woman, called for backup and took her to a cell where she was held for three hours before being released to her aunt. She was charged with two misdemeanors: "disorderly manner that disturbed the public peace" and resisting arrest.

Those are the facts on which both sides agree.

They interpret the events of Sept. 9 very differently.

Transit Police and some Metro officials say Saoutis was protecting the peace by removing a woman who had overstepped the boundaries of civil behavior because she was loudly cursing into her phone.

They say that cell phones have become just another instrument of loutish behavior in the public space and that they are fighting a dramatic deterioration of manners in the transit system.

"We need better enforcement to allow people to know we are serious and want to maintain the high-quality level of the system," said Robert J. Smith, chairman of the Metro board, adding that "ranting youth" have become a plague on the subway. "This isn't Montana. We live in a very dense region, and people are on top of each other all the time."

Smith, who refuses to carry a cell phone, said he thinks Metro riders need to use the devices with care. "We wouldn't allow someone to come into the U.S. Capitol Rotunda and shout obscenities into a cell phone," he said.

But Aaron and some defenders of free speech say the Transit Police are the ones who overstepped boundaries by making a crime out of conversation and pushing a pregnant woman to her knees. The incident took place out of doors and not in the confines of a rail car or bus, they note.

And they point to a string of other incidents, including the July arrest of a 45-year-old woman for chewing a PayDay candy bar and the 2000 arrest of a 12-year-old girl for eating a french fry, that are earning the Transit Police a national reputation as an agency itching to lock up riders.

"Technically, the police officer is right, but the result is wrong," said D.C. Council member Jim Graham (D-Ward 1), who represents the city on the Metro board. "How do we prevent minor transgressions escalating into major problems? It's not what any of us want. We don't want pregnant women booked for loud cell phone conversations. We don't want 12-year-old girls in handcuffs for eating a single french fry. Whether it's training or guidance to our officers, we have to do something."

Johnny Barnes, executive director of the Washington area chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union, called Aaron's arrest "troubling."

"There seems to be an unusual attention paid to activities of patrons," Barnes said. "One should be able to ride the Metro and exercise a range of rights without fear of intervention from Metro police."

Aaron, who lives in Silver Spring and works as a clerk at the Food and Drug Administration, said she was talking to her fiance on her cell phone as she walked toward the bus bay about 4:45 p.m. Sept. 9 to catch the Route C4 Metrobus.

"Our phone conversation had ended," she said. "I'm walking down the stairs and the transit cop said, 'You have to lower your voice, ma'am.' I said, 'You can't tell me how loud I can talk.' He said, 'I can arrest you,' and he grabbed my arm. I said, 'What are you doing? I'm pregnant! Oh, so you want to flex some muscle today?' He grabbed my hand, and we struggled."

Aaron acknowledged that she was loud on the phone but said she wasn't cursing and lobbed a profanity only after Saoutis grabbed her.

After her release that night, Aaron went to Holy Cross Hospital and was treated in the emergency room for a bruise she said was a result of Saoutis's pushing her to the ground and placing his knee on her upper back.

Saoutis, who is about to complete his first year on the job with the Transit Police, was not available for an interview yesterday, according to Deputy Chief Tim Gronau.

Gronau said his officer properly enforced the law and arrested Aaron because it was clear she wasn't taking his warning seriously.

"We're not either pro or negative cell phones," he said. "The issue is [that] the volume of her conversation, coupled with the language, is not conducive to socially accepted standards of behavior."

Not that i would necessarily disagree with the cops complaints, you still shouldnt use any kind of force on a pregnant woman for other than self defense reasons.

[JeeberD]

Sound like the lady who was arrested for eating a candybar on the subway...

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by stevew

Not that i would necessarily disagree with the cops complaints, you still shouldnt use any kind of force on a pregnant woman for other than self defense reasons.

At five months, you can't always tell that a woman *is* pregnant.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by stevew

Not that i would necessarily disagree with the cops complaints, you still shouldnt use any kind of force on a pregnant woman for other than self defense reasons.

Sorry Steve, but being preggers should not give anybody a free pass vs what anyone else gets.

[Danny]

You might as well outlaw shoving any fat girl as they might be pregnant.

[sterlingice]

I think we're all missing the important aspect of the story here. We need an increase in officers like Saoutis to take care of asshole cell phone users

SI

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Sorry Steve, but being preggers should not give anybody a free pass vs what anyone else gets.

Uhh, it should get someone consideration in not being assaulted.

If that were my wife, the fucker would be dead, cop or no.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

At five months, you can't always tell that a woman *is* pregnant.

But perhaps her telling him "I'm pregnant" might have cleared that up.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Uhh, it should get someone consideration in not being assaulted.

If that were my wife, the fucker would be dead, cop or no.

There is a difference between "being assaulted" and "resisting arrest." Further, the article gives us no clue as to whether or not she was obviously pregnant. However, regardless of whether or not she was showing, she's to blame if she resisted arrest.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Samdari

But perhaps her telling him "I'm pregnant" might have cleared that up.

So if she's pregnant she should have gotten a free pass on resisting arrest???

[Celeval]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Uhh, it should get someone consideration in not being assaulted.

If that were my wife, the fucker would be dead, cop or no.

From the CNN version of the article:

Aaron said the officer approached her as she walked to catch a bus, telling her to keep her voice down. She twice tried to break away, but he caught her arm, then placed her face down, handcuffed her, and charged her with disorderly conduct and resisting arrest.

F*cking idiots in this city. If you're in the process of being ticketed, or arrested, or whatever; don't try and fight a cop. You're GOING to get put against a wall or the floor, and you're GOING to get handcuffed. That's a pretty standard response for resisting arrest, no matter where you are.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Celeval

If you're in the process of being ticketed, or arrested, or whatever; don't try and fight a cop. You're GOING to get put against a wall or the floor, and you're GOING to get handcuffed. That's a pretty standard response for resisting arrest, no matter where you are.

Bingo. Furthermore, it is possible that she's the only person at the scene who knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that she was pregnant. If that's the case, and she resisted arrest, that makes her very, very stupid.

[rkmsuf]

Maybe she likes it rough

[CraigSca]

I thought it was cute that she was screaming obscenities, and it turned out she was talking to her fiancee'.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

I thought it was cute that she was screaming obscenities, and it turned out she was talking to her fiancee'.

As an aside....having young kids, it always gets me when I hear people in public letting loose with obsceneties (whether my kids are there specifically or not). Always nice to show that extra consideration there...

And Samdari...would your wife had put up any resistance? Couldn't the woman just have said "I'm sorry officer, I'll lower my tone" and avoided a confrontation?

[JAG]

"Technically, the police officer is right, but the result is wrong," said D.C. Council member Jim Graham (D-Ward 1), who represents the city on the Metro board. "How do we prevent minor transgressions escalating into major problems? It's not what any of us want. We don't want pregnant women booked for loud cell phone conversations. We don't want 12-year-old girls in handcuffs for eating a single french fry. Whether it's training or guidance to our officers, we have to do something."

Bingo. I agree the woman was in the wrong, but the response was like swatting a fly with a sledgehammer.

[CraigSca]

"Our phone conversation had ended," she said. "I'm walking down the stairs and the transit cop said, 'You have to lower your voice, ma'am.' I said, 'You can't tell me how loud I can talk.'

Cop did nothing wrong here, and did nothing to escalate the situation. Yeah, he swatted a fly with a sledgehammer, but if people choose not to listen to a cop when they're trying to prevent 'minor transgressions' what is the cop supposed to do?

C'mon people - the cop said, "You have to lower your voice, ma'am." Next time a cop says that to you, shut the hell up and move on.

[B & B]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

I thought it was cute that she was screaming obscenities, and it turned out she was talking to her fiancee'.

Yeah, not husband.
Another example of the wrong type of people reproducing.

[SlapBone]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Uhh, it should get someone consideration in not being assaulted.

If that were my wife, the fucker would be dead, cop or no.

Well, you have my agreement on this. There are times when situations trancend human law. I watched these guys give a pass to the cop on the candybar lady and now this.

To answer SkyDog's question...yes, pregnant women should be handled differently than others.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

C'mon people - the cop said, "You have to lower your voice, ma'am." Next time a cop says that to you, shut the hell up and move on.

My thoughts exactly. go home and call the transit authority or whatever and report the incident if you think you were wronged so badly. I can't imagine the kind of thoughts going through this lady's head. What the hell are you going to accomplish by arguing with a police officer over something this stupid.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SlapBone

I watched these guys give a pass to the cop ...

That'd be because, in both instances, the cops were right and the civilians were wrong.

[Shepp]

There is one MAJOR thing that people tend to overlook about incidents like this. IT IS THE PERSON WHO WAS ARRESTED THAT DROVE THE SITUATION TO ITS CONCLUSION.

When the officer told the lady that she was being too loud on her phone.

She probably said something to the effect that she could talk on the phone any way that she wants.

He proably repeated himself one or more times with the same response from the woman. So when your an officer what do you do at that point? Let her go?

He probably told her something along the lines of: "If you don't quite down your going to go to jail."

Then she made a comment about how he can't arrest her for that and maybe even about her being pregnant.

The officer then probably grabbed her to put the cuffs on her and then she tried to pull away and the whole thing went down hill from there.

I would love to comment further on this but I'm going to be late for work. The point that I'm trying to make is that the only way to eliminate things like this happening is just to eliminate public conduct laws and let people act any way they want. This lady was going to do her thing and no police was going to tell her otherwise and the fact that she was pregnant just empowered her to think that nothing would happen to her.

[SlapBone]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

That'd be because, in both instances, the cops were right and the civilians were wrong.

I disagree. In both instances the cop followed the civilians so that they could keep asserting their authority. In both situations the civilians seemed to be walking away to carry on with their business. If the situation waas diffused, then why push it. The funny thing is that these cops are never where you need them...ever. If their "authority" was so omnipotent, then why didnt they use their godlike powers to stop someone from getting mugged...or killed even.

"To protect and to serve" Who is being protected or served by one (pregnant) woman running her mouth being manhandled and taken to jail?

[stevew]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Sorry Steve, but being preggers should not give anybody a free pass vs what anyone else gets.

If this bitch miscarries, she would never face the charges that she should face in court. The cops should use restraint merely to protect the unborn life. Now if this cop wants to kick her ass after she delivers, be my guest.

[Ben E Lou]

I have a feeling this chick needs to watch that Chris Rock video...

[B & B]

HE GOT WEED!

[Radii]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

I have a feeling this chick needs to watch that Chris Rock video...

That video should be mandatory rehab for anyone arrested for resisting arrest!

[Huckleberry]

So the cop kept following her even after she'd hung up the phone and was therefore not even talking anymore? Presumably only to exert his authority.

Both individuals were wrong. I feel sorry for neither.

[Ben E Lou]

Yup. Sounds like she screwed up on at least three of the pointers:

Obey the law.
Shut the fuck up.
Stop immediately.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

So the cop kept following her even after she'd hung up the phone and was therefore not even talking anymore? Presumably only to exert his authority.

Both individuals were wrong. I feel sorry for neither.

Am I missing something? I don't see where he kept following her in either account that I've read...

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Am I missing something? I don't see where he kept following her in either account that I've read...

Aaron, who lives in Silver Spring and works as a clerk at the Food and Drug Administration, said she was talking to her fiance on her cell phone as she walked toward the bus bay about 4:45 p.m. Sept. 9 to catch the Route C4 Metrobus.

"Our phone conversation had ended," she said. "I'm walking down the stairs and the transit cop said, 'You have to lower your voice, ma'am.' I said, 'You can't tell me how loud I can talk.' He said, 'I can arrest you,' and he grabbed my arm. I said, 'What are you doing? I'm pregnant! Oh, so you want to flex some muscle today?' He grabbed my hand, and we struggled."

Here

[Huckleberry]

Yeah, my interpretation is that this woman was probably talking way too loud, and probably cursing, on her cell phone in the main traffic area of the stop. She got off the phone and was then walking toward the bus area, indicating she knew that it would have been rude and obnoxious to continue that heated conversation inside a tightly packed vehicle.

As with most confrontations that go too far, both sides could have handled it much better. And I hate to side with the person resisting arrest, but prior to the actual arrest resistance, she popped off to the officer. That was probably related to pregnancy and just being in a heated conversation with a loved one. The cop should not have responded with "Well, I can arrest you." That is just flaunting authority. "Ma'am, I will have to arrest you if you do not lower your voice" would have been much better.

Whatever. Should be a non-story but it won't be after the lawsuit for emotional damages.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

Yeah, my interpretation is that this woman was probably talking way too loud, and probably cursing, on her cell phone in the main traffic area of the stop. She got off the phone and was then walking toward the bus area, indicating she knew that it would have been rude and obnoxious to continue that heated conversation inside a tightly packed vehicle.

So....she shows severe lack of judgment here: "Yeah, my interpretation is that this woman was probably talking way too loud, and probably cursing, on her cell phone in the main traffic area of the stop".

And then suddenly comes to her wits here: "She got off the phone and was then walking toward the bus area, indicating she knew that it would have been rude and obnoxious to continue that heated conversation inside a tightly packed vehicle."

Please...it's nothing but a loud, obnoxious lunkhead getting their come-uppance. This one just happens to be loud, obnoxious and pregnant.

[QuikSand]

"Technically, the police officer is right, but the result is wrong," said D.C. Council member Jim Graham (D-Ward 1), who represents the city on the Metro board. "How do we prevent minor transgressions escalating into major problems? It's not what any of us want. We don't want pregnant women booked for loud cell phone conversations. We don't want 12-year-old girls in handcuffs for eating a single french fry. Whether it's training or guidance to our officers, we have to do something."

That is, by a wide margin, the most intelligent thing I have ever heard from any member of the City Council.

[Huckleberry]

Craig -

That's ridiculous. I've seen similar scenarios play out many times. People are talking/arguing loudly on the street and quiet down as they get up close to their destination, be it an office building, a restaurant, or whatever.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

That'd be because, in both instances, the cops were right and the civilians were wrong.

Ya know I'm just not so certain I believe that to be the case. I do agree that when a cop tells you to do something, you should do it. The officer has the authority to direct the actions of civilians. Along with that authority, the officer has the responsibility to judiciously enforce that authority. In these two cases, the officers did not responsibily or judiciously use their authority.

There is a problem when I read a headline about a cop forcing a woman to the sidewalk for talking loudly on her phone, and I immediately think it was probably a Washington Transit cop who did the shoving.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Here

Ah. That sounds like a different version than I'd see so far.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Uhh, it should get someone consideration in not being assaulted.

If that were my wife, the fucker would be dead, cop or no.

I would never marry a woman who would be cursing loudly into a cell in a public place, then talk shit to a cop who asked her to keep it down. I feel sorry for her future kid. She needs to learn to respect not only those people around her, but her kid and herself as well. Sadly, she feels she did nothing wrong. Bitch.

[Ben E Lou]

Too many people have used the word "lady" to describe this person in this thread.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by TheOutlawTorn

It's a perfect example of the f'ing government telling somebody what they can or cant do. Then when the official doesnt have the situation go his way. He then abuses his power and threatens arrest. Obviously, the cop is a jackball and should be thrown off the force. Since when in the hell do you have to use force to arrest somebody for talking on a cell phone. If I wanted to be harrassed and told what to do by officials. I'd move to Russia or China

I think the officer in the Candy bar incident was actually more aggregiously wrong. The lady in that case had thrown her candy bar wrapper in a trash can, and was simply chewing as she entered the station. However, since she had given the officer some attitude outside, he(I think he) proceeded to write her a ticket for eating in the station. That situation spiraled out of control just as badly as the one above. The Transit Police backed the officer in that case as well, stating that "Chewing is eating", therefore the citation was valid. At least in this case someone on the City Council has recognized that the officers need an attitude adjustment of sorts.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Sound like the lady who was arrested for eating a candybar on the subway...

sounds like the guy who didn't read the whole article...

[Shepp]

It's a perfect example of the f'ing government telling somebody what they can or cant do. Then when the official doesnt have the situation go his way. He then abuses his power and threatens arrest.

This quote is the perfect axample of someone who doesn't have the first idiea about what its like to be a police officer in this society! If I approach someone and telling them they are doing something wrong, they are probably doing something REALLY out of hand.

To use the incident of this thread as an example. If I were the officer arresting the lady in the subway. I not only have to write a report for the arrest, I would have to transport her to the jail, then I would have to go to magistrate court to get an arrest warrant from the judge. Thats just for the arrest. Once the suspect complained or it hit the news like this did. I would have to write an additiontional statement about what happened for the internal investigation and then possibly make one or more trips down to Internal Affairs to answer any additional questions that may come up. On top of all of that I would probably have to do at least some of that on my off-time.

All that above was just for a minor misdemeanor. If the crime is a felony then you have to have a preliminary hearing, that may be reset one or two times for the suspect to obtain legal counsel. Then you have to go to Superior Court and testify in any motions hearings and trial that would result. Almost all of that is done during off-duty time. Then payroll frequently screws up overtime pay and you have to go through the added hassle of getting that fixed.

The overall point I'm trying to make is that if you think that police put folks in jail just for shits and giggles then you don't have a clue!

The funny thing is that these cops are never where you need them...ever. If their "authority" was so omnipotent, then why didnt they use their godlike powers to stop someone from getting mugged...or killed even.

The reason there are never any police around when you need them is because we are always busy doing other inane crap. I spend a significant protion of my shift responding to vehicle accidents, a vast mojority of which could have been avoided if one or both drivers had not been driving selfishly, carelessly, and/or wrecklessly. The other duty that consumes a major part of my day is responding to alarm calls. In the three years if have been a police officer I only ever have found three alarm calls to be valid burglaries. The rest, which I respond to from three to eight a day, are the result of things like folks turning their alarm on and letting the cat run loose through the room with the motion sesnor, or some dummy forgot to lock the front door of the store when they closed.

Then there is the paperwork involved. A traffic accident report can take anywhere from 30 minutes to several hours depending on the number of cars involved. An incident report can take anywhere from 15 minutes to several hours depending on the incident and if anyone was arrested. Last night, for example, I handled a rape call, where I had to spend two hours securing the crime scene and another hour doing the incident report.

Add all that to the fact that there aren't anywhere near enough officers on the street and you should start to get the picture of "Why there are never any police around when you need them."

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

As an aside....having young kids, it always gets me when I hear people in public letting loose with obsceneties (whether my kids are there specifically or not). Always nice to show that extra consideration there...

And Samdari...would your wife had put up any resistance? Couldn't the woman just have said "I'm sorry officer, I'll lower my tone" and avoided a confrontation?

Most normal people would. But then most normal people wouldn't be screaming obscenities into a cell phone in a public place and then telling a cop that he can't tell her what to do, when he obviously can. There's a lot of detail missing from that story that I'm sure would put her in a lot worse light. You don't see any witnesses jumping to her defense in that story.

[sterlingice]

Nice insight, Shepp.

SI

[stevew]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Too many people have used the word "lady" to describe this person in this thread.

Is it this lady?

[Buddy Grant]

The Metro Police have a real tough job to do, and we need to accept that occasional heavy handedness on their part is better than the alternative - Communism. It's never easy to push pregnant women to the pavement, but if that was what was required in this instance then I'm relieved we have Metro Police available to gleefully complete the task with as few casualties as possible.

[timmynausea]

Agreed. The picture does get a lot clearer once you strip away some of the bullshit layers and you're left with a clear case of communism vs. occasional heavy handedness on the part of the Metro Police.

[heybrad]

Shepp reminds me of the cop from "So I Married and Ax Murderer."

"I've never chased a guy threw a crowded square."
"I've never comandeered a vehicle."
"I've never held onto to that thing on the helicopter."
"When I joined the force I thought I would be like Serpico, instead I'm like Fish from Barney Miller."

[clintl]

Is talking loudly on your cell phone even illegal? How would anyone know that? If the Metro Police has that short a fuse that they're going to ticket/arrest anyone who mouths off at them, they have some serious training problems in that department, and some cops with skins way too thin. There are things that a competent professional with a proper sense of discretion will just let go.