Sounds like Jim, Brian, and all our other game developer friends made a good choice

[cartman]

Here's a blog about the working conditions at EA.

hxxp://www.livejournal.com/users/ea_spouse/

[Desnudo]

"And the kicker: for the honor of this treatment EA salaried employees receive a) no overtime; b) no compensation time! ('comp' time is the equalization of time off for overtime -- any hours spent during a crunch accrue into days off after the product has shipped); c) no additional sick or vacation leave."

Welcome to the world of salaries sister. The entire software industry is like what she described in that blog.

It sounds like maybe the home fires aren't getting lit.

[DeToxRox]

that is pretty unreal. good find, cartman

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

The entire software industry is like what she described in that blog.

Yep...it sounds like every IT department where I've worked. Most of what she cites as bad policy is standard in a majority of places. It's the nature of the job.

[Radii]

Thank god i work in healthcare.

Overtime without comp time is the norm for sure, but I have never in my life worked a 80 hour week and I've been a programmer grunt for about 7 years now.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

"And the kicker: for the honor of this treatment EA salaried employees receive a) no overtime; b) no compensation time! ('comp' time is the equalization of time off for overtime -- any hours spent during a crunch accrue into days off after the product has shipped); c) no additional sick or vacation leave."

Welcome to the world of salaries sister. The entire software industry is like what she described in that blog.

It sounds like maybe the home fires aren't getting lit.

I agree completely, except that the conditions her SO works under seem harsher than even the standard crappy long hours software developers work. 12 hour days, 6-7 days a week? 60 hours is bad enough, 85 is another thing altogether. That's not normal, and it's certainly not right, salary or not.

[Buccaneer]

What a whiner. I bet Brian, Markus, Jim et al has put in more hours than this bitch.

[Blackadar]

wah

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by Radii

Thank god i work in healthcare.

Overtime without comp time is the norm for sure, but I have never in my life worked a 80 hour week and I've been a programmer grunt for about 7 years now.

You've never done an 80 hour week? Not once? Crap sign me up... I did a stint last year of 72 hours working in a span of 79 hours... I've had weeks well over 100 hours... not all the time, but it happens, and I don't think my situation is that abnormal.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

I agree completely, except that the conditions her SO works under seem harsher than even the standard crappy long hours software developers work. 12 hour days, 6-7 days a week? 60 hours is bad enough, 85 is another thing altogether. That's not normal, and it's certainly not right, salary or not.

There are tens of thousands of Microserfs who would disagree. The right or wrong of it is simple. If you think it's wrong, you quit.

[Senator]

Cry me a river. I threw away my watch alot of good it did me.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

I agree completely, except that the conditions her SO works under seem harsher than even the standard crappy long hours software developers work. 12 hour days, 6-7 days a week? 60 hours is bad enough, 85 is another thing altogether. That's not normal, and it's certainly not right, salary or not.

I think the management has it right. If you don't want to work those hours. Quit. If that whole team walked off, they would kill the project. If enough of the development teams followed suit, they would be required to change.

I was once approached by a colleague who was trying to lure me away from my firm. He indicated that he was requiring 60 hour weeks(twelve hour days) from his staff for the next six months. He said they were complaining about not receiving overtime. I told him that I often work 60 or more hours in a week to get my job done. I choose to do that on my own. That said, the second my boss requires me to work 60 hour weeks, he damn well better pony up and compensate me for it. I ended up going to work on his team, but by then ownership had agreed to pay the salaried developers overtime pay for their required hours.

[Solecismic]

Most of us would agree that crunch time (that story reads a lot like someone eating an endless granola bar, crunch, crunch, crunch) requires some 80-plus hour weeks as a project nears its end. I've done it many times. That's just the nature of software. Managers rarely say something. You just know when you need to stick it out.

But planned crunch time in the middle of the product cycle? No comp time at the end? That's a little unusual. And so is 50% turnover. Very unusual. They're going to end up having a lot of trouble adding a lot of new features to future versions. With all the new hires, half the cycle is going to be spent learning the code.

You do burn out after a couple of months in that high a range of hours worked. I handle it by taking a lot of comp time between projects.

But I thought the football games were developed in Florida. And I'd suspect that most experienced programmers in California are making about $90k (not that I ever did), at least at that level.

At any rate, I hope I never have to go back to that world. Once you've run your own business for a few years, it becomes addictive.

[Anthony]

make sure your future games are as good as your previous ones and you won't have a problem.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

You've never done an 80 hour week? Not once? Crap sign me up... I did a stint last year of 72 hours working in a span of 79 hours... I've had weeks well over 100 hours... not all the time, but it happens, and I don't think my situation is that abnormal.

At my previous job(where I worked for about 5 years), the first 3 years I put in 50-60 hours with reasonable consistancy. I was never given overtime or comp time, but I was allowed flexibility once I showed I was willing to work my ass off at the drop of a hat(I was allowed to ease into a 10-7 schedule pretty easily).

I was on call constantly and I travelled a fair amount. Trips to Puerto Rico(Yeah, I know, poor me) extended indefinitely(though I never stayed more than 2 weeks), show up to work on a Wednesday morning to have your boss say "can you catch a flight to Phoenix this afternoon?" when you haven't heard anything about that customer in Phoenix in weeks. All-nighters to help a customer do an upgrade(the best was the upgrade for a customer in the Netherlands that started at 4am Saturday morning and didn't until Sunday).

So there were some 16 hour days, sometimes for 2-3 days in a row. But those were on site and when the day ended the customer took you out for a steak.

so I put in my time in my own way when I was first getting in, but its different now. Healthcare companies just don't move very fast. Decisions come slow, you call a customer on Monday with an urgent question and hope you hear back that week. That wait often means no work on that project all week. There is a ton of frustration involved here, but it is nice for me now. I just got married and we have a 7 year old. Knowing that I will never have to take my work home with me, and that even having to stay late is rare, is really really nice.

[cody8200]

You guys realize that this is the WIFE of a computer programmer, not the programmer. She's probably upset that he is away from her months on end 80 hours a week. Are you saying your wives wouldnt be? If you say they wouldn't, I call bs. I just hope they dont have a kid.

[stevew]

From Gamespot

EA workers readying class action lawsuit against EA
Lawyer representing plaintiffs addresses "proposed class action" lawsuit seeking unpaid overtime from the world's biggest third-party publisher.

Yesterday, a blog entry from the spouse of a worker at Electronic Arts lashed out against the game giant. "The current mandatory hours are 9am to 10pm--seven days a week--with the occasional Saturday evening off for good behavior (at 6:30pm)," read the post, which went on to claim EA employees receive no overtime, 'comp' time, or additional vacation for their efforts.

Like most blogs, the veracity of "EA Spouse's" online rant was questionable at best. However, after receiving much attention online, GameSpot News decided to investigate the matter--and found there might be some truth behind the blogger's anger.

Following a tip from an informed source, GameSpot contacted Attorney Robert C. Schubert, partner at San Francisco law firm Schubert & Reed LLP. He said that he has initiated legal proceedings to start a class action lawsuit on behalf of a group of EA employees. "We are seeking unpaid overtime for a good number of [EA] employees who weren't [properly] paid," Schubert told GameSpot this afternoon. "EA contends they were exempt," Schubert said. "We contend otherwise."

To recover the money felt owed them, said employees are trying to file a class action lawsuit against EA seeking overtime pay. On July 29, the complaint Jamie Kirschenbaum vs. Electronic Arts, Inc. was filed in San Mateo Superior Court. Kirschenbaum is one of the members of the Sims 2 design team, although his current employment status at EA could not be clarified as of press time.

However, to initiate a class action suit, a group must first be first certified as a "class" by the court. Schubert also said that until a class is certified by the court, he couldn't say how many individuals would seek to participate in the legal action. "We haven't been certified as a class yet," said Schubert, who admitted that certification "is a big battle."

And it looks like the lines for that battle are already being drawn. GameSpot was sent a copy of an e-mail purportedly sent to Electronic Arts employees over the summer, alerting them to the lawsuit. The e-mail went so far as to inform them that if they chose to participate in the lawsuit by joining the class, if it were to be certified, there would be no repercussions.

The e-mail, while not yet confirmed to be authentic, frames the dispute between the proposed class and Electronic Arts as follows:

"On July 29, 2004, a class action lawsuit was filed against Electronic Arts Inc. ("EA"). This communication responds to earlier email communications from EA management regarding the litigation. The lawsuit alleges that EA improperly classified some of its employees, including 'animators,' 'modelers,' 'texture artists,' 'lighters,' 'background effects artists' and 'environmental artists' as exempt from overtime, and therefore failed to pay those employees overtime compensation. Plaintiff's action seeks statutory penalties, damages, restitution, and injunctive relief.

"EA denies plaintiff's claim. It is EA's position that it treats its employees fairly and lawfully, and that it has properly classified its employees within the meaning of the law. The plaintiff is seeking to bring this lawsuit on behalf of himself and to represent a proposed class of current and former EA employees as a class action. The Court has not yet certified this case as a class action"

"If the case is certified, members of the class will be notified as directed by the Court, and may be given the opportunity to be excluded from the class ("opting out"), or to hire their own lawyers to represent them"

"EA will not retaliate against employees for exercising legal rights, including by participating in the proposed class action."

According to Schubert, the most recent action taken by the court was the denial of a motion by EA that would have stopped the certification process in its tracks.

E-mails to Electronic Arts requesting comment had not been returned at press time.

[sterlingice]

"EA will not retaliate against employees for exercising legal rights, including by participating in the proposed class action."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahahahahahahahaha.... oh, man, that brought a tear to my eye. Too funny.

SI

[Maple Leafs]

I work in the software industry, although not as a developer. My thoughts:

1. Like everything else I read online, I assume this is mostly false or at least greatly exagerated for dramatic purposes.

2. If it's true, then she has every right to be ticked off. I've done 80+ hour weeks before, and I've asked people I manage to do the same. It's part of the business, and if someone needs a consistent 9 to 5 job to be happy they should be in another industry. But it should be the exception, not the rule. If your business model is based on having employee work double hours on a regular basis then you do not have a realistic model -- you have a pyramid scheme. I wonder if EA shareholders have thought about that.

[John Galt]

The one thing that worries me about companies doing things like this is that they create norms with in a community that end up requiring every similar company to keep up by doing the same. I worked in the NYC legal market which is insane in the amount of work required. I regularly worked 70 hour weeks and had a quite few 100 hour weeks in my time. While I did "quit," it would have been very hard for me to quit and work for another large law firm in NYC without experiencing the same thing. Over time, the ridiculous hours in NYC have become the norm. The partners who expect those hours (and are making 10 to 20 times what the associates make) came from a generation that didn't work nearly as much. The problem is exacerbated in the legal arena because firms still (mostly) bill on an hour basis. I would bring in $800,000 to $1,000,000 in gross income for the firm in a year, but only receive a fraction of it back. The danger is, that over time, norms develop and competitors have to do the same to get the same bang for the buck.

I don't feel that there is a good solution to the problem, but I think to just say, "don't whine" or "quit" is near-sighted in the effect such employment practices have on a whole industry. And the effect is even worse when the company doing it is the leader.

[Yossarian]

from gamesindustry.biz

While the industry is busy celebrating the remarkable sales success
of Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas and Halo 2 - with Metroid Prime 2
and Half-Life 2 still to come before Christmas, along with many
other massive titles which are too numerous to mention - an
impassioned post on an Internet journal this week has served as a
sobering, but perhaps timely, reminder that its current success is
not being shared equally by all of those who have created it.

An articulate, reasonable but yet undoubtedly angry post on the
LiveJournal website from someone described only as "ea_spouse" is a
damning condemnation of work practices within the games industry -
and while it specifically mentions market leader Electronic Arts, as
that's the company where the husband of the author works, it would
be deeply unfair to assume that EA is the only videogames company
with questions to answer about how it treats development staff.

However much we talk about San Andreas and Halo 2 representing a
maturing of the industry in the public eye, it's meaningless if the
companies within the industry continue to employ work and business
practices which smack more of the cowboy methods of doing business
in new markets than the responsible behaviour of blue-chip
companies. No matter how much profit our publishers rake in, or how
much we praise the creativity of the industry's leading franchises,
it's ultimately self-defeating if the talented people on whose
shoulders this industry rests are overworked, underpaid, and
ultimately leave the industry to seek employment elsewhere - as they
do, and will continue to do.

The article written by "ea_spouse" describes working conditions
which would not be permitted in any other first world industry, with
crunch time lasting for months and eventually reaching a point where
it genuinely compromises the health and well-being of workers -
never mind the hugely destructive effect that these conditions have
on their personal lives, the quality of their work, and their
enthusiasm for their jobs.

Again, it's vital to emphasise that EA is mentioned specifically
only because this is the company at which the writer's husband is
employed, but its practices are most certainly not unique in the
industry, and indeed the company is far from being the worst
offender in terms of the treatment of its staff. This is an issue
that the whole games industry needs to face up to, not just one for
EA alone - although certainly, for the market leader to actually
lead the way in this area would be a welcome step.

If this particular subject sounds familiar, then yes, it's true that
we have visited the subject of the working conditions of development
staff before; but it's a hugely important subject, perhaps the most
important facing the industry right now, and it's worth revisiting
in the light both of the immense success of recent products, and the
eloquent and distressing comments made by "ea_spouse" in her
journal.

The simple fact is that these are creative people, not factory
drones churning out "product" to a set of specifications, and
overworked talent will produce lower quality work, will introduce
more bugs or sloppy design into a project, and will ultimately cost
a publisher money in terms of lost sales, lost man-hours (which,
admittedly, will then be covered up with more forced overwork), and
eventually, ridiculously high levels of staff turnover - already a
massive issue for the industry, and one which is growing and growing
as traditional media industries start to increasingly value games
industry "veterans" who cross over into other areas.

Sales figures and media hype represents one type of maturity.
However, until such time as the industry grows up enough to deal
with the type of management and project planning - be it merely
incompetent, downright unethical, or both - which is causing the
levels of overwork, stress and dissatisfaction seen among developers
at many major studios, this business will never truly be mature, and
it will always fall short of both its creative and commercial
potential.

The article by "ea_spouse" can be found at the following URL -
http://www.livejournal.com/users/ea_spouse/ - and we would strongly
recommend it as reading for anyone in the business of publishing or
developing videogames, especially those who manage the process.

[sterlingice]

Did anyone else get a kick out of the "more of the cowboy methods of doing business in new markets than the responsible behaviour of blue-chip companies" line?

SI

[cartman]

Here is a sample of some of the motivational posters that are hanging in the EA hallways...

hxxp://snarkyspot.blogspot.com/2004/11/ea-management-motivational-posters.html