Bonds' Grand Jury Testimony

[molson]

hxxp://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/12/03/BALCO.TMP

"Barry Bonds told a federal grand jury that he used a clear substance and a cream supplied by the Burlingame laboratory now enmeshed in a sports doping scandal, but he said he never thought they were steroids, The Chronicle has learned"

[Suicane75]

On a related note, my girlfriend thinks ive been giving her steroids.

[Sharpieman]

I said that I would never judge him or any other player untill proven guilty. However, it looks like he's cheated. It doesn't come as a surprise or anything. There is and has been a lot wrong with the whole system in baseball. If Bonds is doing it, then I wouldn't doubt it by any means that other players are doing it. Does it make OK for Bonds to do it? Certainly not. Its a stain on him and the game. Its hard to take the game of baseball seriously with the cheating going on. Not only should Bonds' records be questioned, but also many of those records accomplished in history. The MLB should attack the players union, fire those in its admin that are opposed to strengthing the drug prevention program.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by molson

hxxp://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/12/03/BALCO.TMP

"Barry Bonds told a federal grand jury that he used a clear substance and a cream supplied by the Burlingame laboratory now enmeshed in a sports doping scandal, but he said he never thought they were steroids, The Chronicle has learned"

Those mushrooms someone gave me? I thought they were garnish for my steak.

[korme]

Damn.

[Axxon]

Don't worry Shorty, he enjoyed the mushrooms so much that he had three steaks that night.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Axxon

Don't worry Shorty, he enjoyed the mushrooms so much that he had three steaks that night.

I ate so much, I was afraid to leave the house.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I ate so much, I was afraid to leave the house.

Yes, try having a wonderful steak dinner on a houseboat in Amsterdam with a smoking hot girl who you met in an internet cafe earlier that afternoon.

Let me tell you, you won't leave the house but fear won't even be part of the reason.

Better stop now. I'm at work AND there's no kleenex handy.

[Bomber]

I don't care.

[Young Drachma]

So what. If it wasn't illegal because baseball has a softball policy on steroids at the time, then they're is nothing they can do about it. Thirty years from now, someone will break his record and no one will talk about him.

He obviously was off of whatever he was using this season and he was still just as dominant. So that either makes him a cheater with talent, a unknowning and unwilling cheater, a cheater who knew and doesn't care...or simply a player with too much talent who no one will like because he's not affable, doesn't kiss their ass and has a huge chip on his shoulder.

In other words, it doesn't matter.

[McSweeny]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

He obviously was off of whatever he was using this season and he was still just as dominant.

really? the big selling point of this type of steroid is that it is undetectable.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

So what. If it wasn't illegal because baseball has a softball policy on steroids at the time

It was not against baseball's rules, but it was most definitely illegal. Baseball should not take away any of his stats, but he should be thrown in jail until he is old enough to have no chance at Aaron's record.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by McSweeny

really? the big selling point of this type of steroid is that it is undetectable.

It is not undetectable at all. It was considered undetectable at the time these athletes were taking it because only BALCO made it, none of the athletes' governing bodies knew about it, so they did not test for it. Now that everyone knows about it, it is as easily detectible as any other steroid, and banned and tested for by all organizations who do such a thing.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Samdari

It was not against baseball's rules, but it was most definitely illegal. Baseball should not take away any of his stats, but he should be thrown in jail until he is old enough to have no chance at Aaron's record.

They couldn't have it both ways. They would either never get enough evidence to prove these players did it, or more important to their case, who gave it to them, or they would have to give the players immunity to get the proof on the guys who gave it to them. They chose the latter. So, Bonds didn't break any MLB rules AND won't be going to jail (unless he lied, but the way he's couched it, someone with no bias would have to come forward with evidence, like a direct conversation, where he admitted he knew what he was doing).

The only thing these guys are up against now is perjury charges, if they committed perjury - criminal charges related to the underlying issue are out the window. This is basically like cutting a deal with the dealer on the corner to get to his supplier.

[Subby]

I can't think of a more uncomfortable, UIC situation that the on-the-spot ceremony that will commence when Bonds breaks Aaron's record this season...

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

They couldn't have it both ways. They would either never get enough evidence to prove these players did it, or more important to their case, who gave it to them, or they would have to give the players immunity to get the proof on the guys who gave it to them. They chose the latter. So, Bonds didn't break any MLB rules AND won't be going to jail (unless he lied, but the way he's couched it, someone with no bias would have to come forward with evidence, like a direct conversation, where he admitted he knew what he was doing).

The only thing these guys are up against now is perjury charges, if they committed perjury - criminal charges related to the underlying issue are out the window. This is basically like cutting a deal with the dealer on the corner to get to his supplier.

Oh, I don't think they can or will really prosecute Bonds. That is just a solution that would satisfy my sensibilities. I am well aware it is a fantasy.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Subby

I can't think of a more uncomfortable, UIC situation that the on-the-spot ceremony that will commence when Bonds breaks Aaron's record this season...

This will be the most awkward moment ever in sports. It was OK when it was just nutjobs and addicts like Canseco and Caminiti, but now you've got bona fide stars involved, including the guy who's just about to break the biggest career number in MLB there is. You couldn't pick a worse time for this to come out if you were handed a calendar. There's really nothing else going on in sports to battle the front page of ESPN - hockey's MIA, basketball is just starting, football isn't quite to the playoffs, even in MLB, free agent signings haven't picked up yet...there's nothing else to do but discuss this issue endlessly.

[Subby]

Stats are About the Facts

By Rob Neyer
ESPN Insider

Every time steroids make headlines, I get asked about the asterisk.

"Should baseball put an asterisk or something next to Barry Bonds' records?"

My answer is that "baseball" shouldn't do any such thing, and nobody else should, either. Because the asterisks (or whatever that people are thinking about) are opinions, not facts. And the statistical record is the last place you want to see somebody's opinion.

Look, baseball statistics succeed brilliantly at telling us what a player did. I know, with a certitude approaching the metaphysical, that in 2004 Greg Maddux won 16 games and Brandon Webb lost 16 games (of course, we might argue over the definitions of "won" and "lost," but here I'm going with the rulebook).

On the other hand, baseball statistics succeed somewhat less brilliantly at telling us what a player is.

If you had wakened from a (very) long nap in 1972 and watched Bert Campaneris, you'd have said to yourself, "Self, that skinny fellow wearing the funny uniform is that rarest of beasts: the power-hitting shortstop."

You'd have been wrong. Campaneris did hit 22 home runs in 1972. But he hit two home runs in 1971, five in 1973, and in a career that spanned two full decades, 1972 was the only season in which Campy managed more than eight home runs. He was a banjo hitter who hit the jackpot for five glorious months.

If you decide tomorrow, after a lifetime of fanatical apathy, to become a baseball fan, the first thing you should do is buy a copy of The Bill James Handbook 2005. And right there on page 324 you'll discover that among active players, Todd Helton ranks second in batting average (at .339, just a hair behind Ichiro, second in on-base percentage (a few points behind Barry Bonds), and second in slugging percentage (a few points behind Albert Pujols). Given those facts, you might reasonably conclude that Todd Helton is the best hitter around.

You would, of course, be wrong. He's not the best hitter in the major leagues, nor even the best hitter in the National League. Helton might be one of the half-dozen or so best hitters in his league, but even that's not a sure thing. See, what you don't know without a bit of digging is that while Helton's batted a robust .377 in his home games, he's batted but .298 in road games.

In 1951, a little person named Eddie Gaedel signed a contract with the St. Louis Browns, and shortly thereafter he batted against the Detroit Tigers. Gaedel stood three feet, seven inches tall, and he walked on four pitches. After the game, American League president Will Harridge voided Gaedel's contract, and decreed that no midget should again be allowed to play in a major league game.

And the following spring, when The Sporting News published its annual Official Baseball Guide, Eddie Gaedel was nowhere to be found. The Guide contained all the statistics, and beginning on page 21 there is a list of American League players who saw action in fewer than 10 games, including 10 who played in just one game.

Eddie Gaedel's name does not appear. As far as The Sporting News was concerned, his walk didn't count because somebody decided, after the fact, that it shouldn't have happened.

It did happen, though. And today Eddie Gaedel's name, his biographical data, and his statistics appear in all of the encyclopedias, right there between Len Gabrielson and Gary Gaetti. No asterisk, just the facts, leaving you to discover the rest of the story.

The numbers tell us what actually did happen on the field. That's all the numbers are supposed to do. And for the most part, that's all we ask of them. I can look at Babe Ruth's numbers without an ounce of interpretation and conclude, correctly, that the Babe was some kind of hitter. I can look at Bill Bergen's numbers without a speckle of sophistication and conclude, correctly, that Bill Bergen couldn't hit a beach ball with a two-by-four on a sunny day.

And whether you like it or not, that's the way it's going to be with Barry Bonds. Bert Campaneris doesn't get an asterisk to denote his fluke, Todd Helton doesn't get an asterisk to denote his home ballpark, and Barry Bonds doesn't get an asterisk to denote his "cream" and his "clear."

Sometimes, though, the numbers are just a start. When it comes to Barry Bonds, we know what he did. But we still don't know exactly who he is.

[spleen1015]

The thing that sucks for me in all of this is the fact that it is making me wonder if my favorite player ever used steriods.

Do you guys think Cal Ripken, Jr. ever used steroids? I know the evidence probably points to no, but I still wonder now.

[Ksyrup]

I miss Rob Neyer.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Samdari

It was not against baseball's rules, but it was most definitely illegal.

Can someone explain to me why it was illegal?

[Subby]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

The thing that sucks for me in all of this is the fact that it is making me wonder if my favorite player ever used steriods.

Do you guys think Cal Ripken, Jr. ever used steroids? I know the evidence probably points to no, but I still wonder now.

I seriously doubt it.

Brady Andersen is a different story, however

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Can someone explain to me why it was illegal?

Steroids are illegal.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Can someone explain to me why it was illegal?

Is this a Libertarian question wondering why the government makes steroids illegal, or a question about the facts? If it is a question as to why they have been made illegal, I can't answer that.

As for facts, steroids are illegal both to distribute and possess. I am unsure about whether THG is technically illegal, since no one knew about it, and it could not have been specifically banned. Since Anderson and Conte are being pursued for a conspiracy to distribute it, I assume there is some generic law prohibiting substances of a certain type, which would make possession of them illegal as well (and THG would fall under the definition of anabolic steroids). The testosterone cream is definitely a steroid, and thus illegal for Bonds to possess.

Further, since Bonds was apparently involved in getting these substances to other players, that makes him part of the conspiracy to distribute them.

DISCLAIMER: This is the law as I understand it from reading many articles on the topic. If someone has specific knowledge that the law is substancially different, I apologize in advance.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Can someone explain to me why it was illegal?

Illegal according to Federal Law

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Is this a Libertarian question wondering why the government makes steroids illegal, or a question about the facts?

Dadgum right it is the former. This whole "WE-know-what's-best-for-you-and-you-don't" form of government *really* chaps me.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

It was OK when it was just nutjobs and addicts like Canseco and Caminiti, but now you've got bona fide stars involved, including the guy who's just about to break the biggest career number in MLB there is.

Sorry, but who's about to break Cy Young's win record? I haven't kept up with baseball lately but I didn't know anyone had won 400 much less about to break 511.

This is the biggest career number in MLB. You are talking about the biggest attainable career record which speaks volumes about mr Young's record.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Dadgum right it is the former. This whole "WE-know-what's-best-for-you-and-you-don't" form of government *really* chaps me.

I thought it might be that. In that case I change my answer to "I don't want to get into that with you"

[MizzouRah]

My friend was giving me what I thought was pixie sticks dust. Didn't know why I was up for 4 days straight.

Didn't you all know the truth about Bonds was going to come out sooner or later?


Todd

[KWhit]

Many of you have said that this is not against MLB rules. Is that really true?

Is taking a steroid that (at least so far) has been undetectable "okay" as far as the rulebook is concerned?

I was under the impression that all performance enhancing drugs (but not supplements) were against the rules. I know that their testing policy is a joke, but if it is in the rulebook and then you have someone admitting that they broke that rule, they should be punished.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

My friend was giving me what I thought was pixie sticks dust. Didn't know why I was up for 4 days straight.

Didn't you all know the truth about Bonds was going to come out sooner or later?


Todd

Dude, the 'truth' still isn't out.

Bonds claims he didn't know they were steroids.

Yeah, right.

[HornedFrog Purple]

I think Chan Ho Park should admit to using steroids to save baseball.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by KWhit

Dude, the 'truth' still isn't out.

Bonds claims he didn't know they were steroids.

Yeah, right.

Actually, I think that is fully possible. Wouldn't it make sense that a trainer wouldn't tell the player exactly what everything he's taking is in order to "protect" him? I would imagine that this is pretty common. If a guy is *willing* to take steroids, he goes to a certain trainer and says "I'll do whatever it takes and I don't need to understand all the details" or some other code phrase. Technically, the guy doesn't know what he's taking. I'm almost CERTAIN that this happens.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Actually, I think that is fully possible. Wouldn't it make sense that a trainer wouldn't tell the player exactly what everything he's taking is in order to "protect" him? I would imagine that this is pretty common. If a guy is *willing* to take steroids, he goes to a certain trainer and says "I'll do whatever it takes and I don't need to understand all the details" or some other code phrase. Technically, the guy doesn't know what he's taking. I'm almost CERTAIN that this happens.

Do you honestly think someone would have that little reguard for their bodies, they would say something like this?

Maybe something like, "Don't tell me what you're giving me, but I want a "boost". (winks his eye) Make sure it's fairly safe though.


Todd

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

Do you honestly think someone would have that little reguard for their bodies, they would say something like this?

I honestly think that there are a significant number of professional athletes who haven't gotten past the adolescent mentality that they are invincible.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Actually, I think that is fully possible. Wouldn't it make sense that a trainer wouldn't tell the player exactly what everything he's taking is in order to "protect" him? I would imagine that this is pretty common. If a guy is *willing* to take steroids, he goes to a certain trainer and says "I'll do whatever it takes and I don't need to understand all the details" or some other code phrase. Technically, the guy doesn't know what he's taking. I'm almost CERTAIN that this happens.

I suppose that depends on your definition of "know".

It's possible that Bonds was never told word for word what they were. But this statement from the story on ESPN is pretty telling:

Bonds did say, however, that in 2003 he became suspicious of baseball's steroid testing program and asked Anderson to have him tested.



"We got tested two times this season unannounced," Bonds tesified. "I don't trust baseball. They say it's anonymous, but then they put your name on it. So I don't trust baseball. So I asked Greg ... 'I want to know what baseball's doing behind our backs.'

"I never saw the papers, never saw the results. Greg just said, 'You're negative,'" Bonds said.

So did he "know" for a fact and a certainty? Maybe not, but I find it really hard to believe that someone who uses their body to make millions of dollars and who works hours on end to keep it in tip top shape is going to put something in his body without knowing what it was.




Was he told it was a steroid? Maybe not, I'll grant you that. But did he know what it was? I have to believe he did.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by KWhit

Many of you have said that this is not against MLB rules. Is that really true?

Is taking a steroid that (at least so far) has been undetectable "okay" as far as the rulebook is concerned?

I was under the impression that all performance enhancing drugs (but not supplements) were against the rules. I know that their testing policy is a joke, but if it is in the rulebook and then you have someone admitting that they broke that rule, they should be punished.

It is now against the rules. I'm not sure of the exact dates involved here, but in Giambi's situation, he seems to have acknowledged that he took some steroids a few years back, then got involved with Anderson, but stopped at some point - presumably when drug testing was agreed to by the MLBPA and formally put into action.

If true, this would be similar to McGwire's use of andro, which was not against the rules at the time he took it. Difference is, of course, andro, in and of itself, was not illegal under the law. But for purposes of MLB, the situations may be analogous.

[KWhit]

But I was under the impression that the ban on steroids has been on the rulebook for quite a while but there was just no testing involved until recently.

I'm I wrong? (Really asking here, now I'm not so sure).

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by KWhit

Was he told it was a steroid? Maybe not, I'll grant you that. But did he know what it was? I have to believe he did.

One could make an argument for "willful blindness." I don't do criminal law, so I don't know how applicable it is or in what circumstances it is applicable. But I just ran a quick google search, and came across a 2003 P2P case in which the court ruled on "willful blindness":


"Madster owner John Deep had been arguing that the encryption feature of his service prevented him from knowing exactly what users were trading over the network. However, the court ruled that "willful blindness is knowledge in copyright law."

In its decision, the court panel stated that "one who, knowing or strongly suspecting that he is involved in shady dealings, takes steps to make sure that he does not acquire full or exact knowledge of the nature of those dealings is held to have criminal intent."

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by KWhit

Was he told it was a steroid? Maybe not, I'll grant you that. But did he know what it was? I have to believe he did.

Well, my guess is that he didn't know it, but suspected it, therefore giving him the ability to truthfully testify that he didn't "know" it.

I think it is safe to assume that these guys take multiple supplements. Bonds almost certainly took some legal stuff as well.

Bonds: "Look, I took 4 different pills in the morning, drank two shakes before a workout, and took 3 other things after a workout, all different every day. I didn't know all of the details on everything. I just did what my trainer told me."

[cougarfreak]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

One could make an argument for "willful blindness." I don't do criminal law, so I don't know how applicable it is or in what circumstances it is applicable. But I just ran a quick google search, and came across a 2003 P2P case in which the court ruled on "willful blindness":


"Madster owner John Deep had been arguing that the encryption feature of his service prevented him from knowing exactly what users were trading over the network. However, the court ruled that "willful blindness is knowledge in copyright law."

In its decision, the court panel stated that "one who, knowing or strongly suspecting that he is involved in shady dealings, takes steps to make sure that he does not acquire full or exact knowledge of the nature of those dealings is held to have criminal intent."

Wonder how many other drug users (like Bonds) have been caught by police and said..............I didn't know it was crack, pcp, marijuana, heroin, etc., my dealer didn't tell me what was in it.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by cougarfreak

Wonder how many other drug users (like Bonds) have been caught by police and said..............I didn't know it was crack, pcp, marijuana, heroin, etc., my dealer didn't tell me what was in it.

Heh. The lawyer shoots me down. However, I'd say that these drugs, as opposed to one or two steroid-containing supplement out of dozens, are a different ball game for this discussion.

[Radii]

I really, really like that Rob Neyer article.

And I'm much more worried about the state of baseball than I am worried about Barry Bonds and what he did or didn't know. If this kind of story broke in the NFL, we'd be upset at the players b/c the NFL has a good solid drug testing policy with good, solid penalties for doing the drugs. I still have an issue with Julius Peppers getting a 4 game suspension the first time he's found with ephedra in his body while Crackhead Quincy's record isn't even made public on the first test, but I at least understand the reasoning and I can respect it.

Gaseball's testing plan is very weak right now, and was non-existant a few years ago, it makes the entire game laughable. MLB has no recourse, no leg to stand on to defend its integrity after the fact, because the rules have been a joke up until now.

[Ben E Lou]

Upon further thought, if I were sitting on a jury where the judge instructed me in "willful blindness," I might be a strong candidate for jury nullification, depending on the exact set of circumstances.

[Ksyrup]

Has David Boston's trainer been caught up in any of this stuff? I remember reading a strange article about his conditioning last year (magnesium drips and odd stuff like that), and how Boston required SD to allow him to have the guy stay with him during summer camp and stuff. It was bizarre. Someone on the "cutting edge" of training must certainly be getting some scrutiny in the wake of BALCO.

[rkmsuf]

Uh, ok. This is what you have to say to a Federal Grand Jury. You are quite a peach.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bonds told the grand jurors that he had given Anderson a $20,000 bonus and bought him a ring after the 73-home run season. He also bought the trainer a ring to commemorate the Giants' 2002 World Series appearance. When a juror asked why the wealthy ballplayer hadn't bought "a mansion" for his trainer to live in, Bonds answered:

"One, I'm black, and I'm keeping my money. And there's not too many rich black people in this world. There's more wealthy Asian people and Caucasian and white. And I ain't giving my money up."

[damnMikeBrown]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Is this a Libertarian question wondering why the government makes steroids illegal, or a question about the facts? If it is a question as to why they have been made illegal, I can't answer that.

As for facts, steroids are illegal both to distribute and possess. I am unsure about whether THG is technically illegal, since no one knew about it, and it could not have been specifically banned. Since Anderson and Conte are being pursued for a conspiracy to distribute it, I assume there is some generic law prohibiting substances of a certain type, which would make possession of them illegal as well (and THG would fall under the definition of anabolic steroids). The testosterone cream is definitely a steroid, and thus illegal for Bonds to possess.

Further, since Bonds was apparently involved in getting these substances to other players, that makes him part of the conspiracy to distribute them.

DISCLAIMER: This is the law as I understand it from reading many articles on the topic. If someone has specific knowledge that the law is substancially different, I apologize in advance.

Ok, a couple important points here. What they are calling Testosterone cream may or not contain actual testosterone. Yes, if that was the case, it would be a scheduled drug. There are several other ways to exogenously introduce testosterone into the body however, and it is, until January, completely legal.

Welcome to the world of pro-hormones. You may thing "Andro", but that is like thinking car and picturing a Model-T. What is being produced now, and the effectiveness is on par with black market alternatives.

4-ad is a steroid pre-cursor. It converts to testosterone. The best application method is transdermal....it was not covered in the law in '90 or '91 that made a bunch of steroids scheduled drugs. The law only specifically named a bunch of 'roids that were being used and tested. That left an ENOURMOUS amoung of steroids that were not being used, nor being tested, to be developed.

It goes like this...an entrepeneur says "I think I can make a steroid"..he goes to VIDA (the book 'o love), looks up its chemical structure, sends it off to China, and presto...a few months later you have a completely "new" steroid that is not being tested for because it didn't exist before.

All of this is moot if they were actually using real test, however. Likely, they were, but the transdermal thing is sorta silly for real test. Transdermal would decrease the efficacy of test against injection. Transdermal is, however, the best method to use 4-ad.

[KWhit]

Did you guys see that Bonds was taking Clomid to mask the steroids?

Those of you who haven't had trouble trying to have a child may not know what this is, but it is a drug given to women that causes them to produce more eggs to aid in fertility.

Crazy.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Upon further thought, if I were sitting on a jury where the judge instructed me in "willful blindness," I might be a strong candidate for jury nullification, depending on the exact set of circumstances.

Todd

[damnMikeBrown]

Clomid doesn't mask steroids. It is taken as a way to get test production back up quickly after a cycle of 'roids. It's also taken by porn stars, because it causes a large amount of ejaculate. There ya go Fritz.