Is it Tom Brady or Bill Belichick?

maximus · 01-23-2005, 06:12 PM

What makes the Patriots so good?

I know both the HC and the QB need each other but looking back at Bill Belichicks' past seasons as HC at Cleveland he wasn't so successful. He was 36-44 in five seasons. In his first season he was 5-11 with Bledsoe starting all the games. In his second season for the Patriots he was 11-5 with Brady starting 14 games.

You also have Romeo Crennel (Defensive Coordinator) who's been with the Patriots since 2001 & Charlie Weis (Offensive Coordinator) whos' been with the Patriots for nine years.

Logan · 01-23-2005, 06:20 PM

Both. (sorry to take the 5th).

maximus · 01-23-2005, 06:24 PM

It's just that this Patriot team has win all over it. It's not very direct but very subtle. They play with a great amount of confidence and it really shows.

Joe · 01-23-2005, 06:55 PM

its the defense

Anthony · 01-23-2005, 06:56 PM

it's the defense, so since Bellicheck is a defensive minded coach i'm gonna say he's the reason.

Desnudo · 01-23-2005, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximus

What makes the Patriots so good?

I know both the HC and the QB need each other but looking back at Bill Belichicks' past seasons as HC at Cleveland he wasn't so successful. He was 36-44 in five seasons. In his first season he was 5-11 with Bledsoe starting all the games. In his second season for the Patriots he was 11-5 with Brady starting 14 games.

You also have Romeo Crennel (Defensive Coordinator) who's been with the Patriots since 2001 & Charlie Weis (Offensive Coordinator) whos' been with the Patriots for nine years.

It's a combination of factors. They don't win without Brady and they don't win without Bill. Though I believe supporting talent is the huge difference. They don't get many accolades outside of a few players, but top to bottom the Patriots actually have an incredible amount of individual talent. The coach just does an amazing job of gettting the most out of great players. There's a saying in soccer that "talent tells," meaning that talent, in the long run, usually wins over tactics.

Yossarian · 01-23-2005, 07:09 PM

Its the O and D co-ordinator.

just watch the drop off next year...

Greyroofoo · 01-23-2005, 07:37 PM

well it was bilicheck and not brady that beat the Colts last week

Joe · 01-23-2005, 07:38 PM

so... how many yards did bill pass for?

j51 · 01-23-2005, 08:00 PM

A ridiculously clutch kicker and a copious amount of luck.

Havok · 01-23-2005, 08:19 PM

Bellicheck = a genius

Sun Tzu · 01-23-2005, 08:42 PM

Sorry Havok, that name has already been taken. Please select another.

Galaril · 01-23-2005, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximus

It's just that this Patriot team has win all over it. It's not very direct but very subtle. They play with a great amount of confidence and it really shows.

It is odd yto me how they have been winning so much over the past 4-5 years. When you look at this team on paper they don't look that great. I mean geez they have had a wide out playing nickel back for two months. They remind me alot of the old montana 49ers The intangibles really help a team like the pats. They seem to take advantage of opportunities.

Greyroofoo · 01-23-2005, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George W Bush

so... how many yards did bill pass for?

Bill didn't tackle anyone, kick any balls, or make any first downs either. Whats your point?

Desnudo · 01-23-2005, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galaril

It is odd yto me how they have been winning so much over the past 4-5 years. When you look at this team on paper they don't look that great. I mean geez they have had a wide out playing nickel back for two months. They remind me alot of the old montana 49ers The intangibles really help a team like the pats. They seem to take advantage of opportunities.

They don't have a lot of big names, but they do have great talent.

Honolulu_Blue · 01-23-2005, 09:04 PM

Tom Brady.

SirFozzie · 01-23-2005, 09:06 PM

It's C) All of the Above. The Pats front office built this team, and the players EXECUTE. It's all of the Pats.

Havok · 01-23-2005, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Sorry Havok, that name has already been taken. Please select another.

guru???

ISiddiqui · 01-23-2005, 11:50 PM

Frankly, I'm going to wait to answer this question in exactly one year when Weis and Crennel are gone. I want to see how much they had to do with this (probably a decent deal).

Cap Ologist · 01-23-2005, 11:57 PM

Just think about the depth the Pats will have next year in the secondary if Law and Poole return without too much damage to their "current" ratings.

DaddyTorgo · 01-24-2005, 12:00 AM

Law is all but gone. I think that's as good as done. As for Poole, I'm not sure what his contract status is.

Sharpieman · 01-24-2005, 12:28 AM

I think its both, but Brady gets way too much praise and Belichick gets way too little.

cthomer5000 · 01-24-2005, 12:34 AM

I have to think it's Bellicheck. It's not just Tom Brady, it's the performance of every player on the damned team. I have little doubt they are the best-coached and most well-prepared team out there. It always appears that everyone always follows out their assignment, or makes the correct read. This has to be the coaching staff.

Next year will be a true test with Weis and Crennel (likely) gone.

ISiddiqui · 01-24-2005, 12:42 AM

The reason I'm not willing to give all the praise to Belichick is because I remember the Cleveland years. Perhaps it was a bad situation for him, but he wasn't that good at all with the Browns.

Eaglesfan27 · 01-24-2005, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

The reason I'm not willing to give all the praise to Belichick is because I remember the Cleveland years. Perhaps it was a bad situation for him, but he wasn't that good at all with the Browns.

Coaches get better with experience. That being said, I think it wasn't all Belichick (sp?) either. I think it's the entire New England organization. That being said, I think it will be difficult to find two coordinators as good as they have had in the past few years.

Darkiller · 01-24-2005, 03:45 AM

Not taking anything away from Belichick's fantastic run with the Patriots...but people seem to forget that he was a flop when he was a head-coach in Cleveland.

What he is doing with New England is very, very good...but before calling him a "genius" : let's remember he hasn't always won...

cthomer5000 · 01-24-2005, 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkiller

Not taking anything away from Belichick's fantastic run with the Patriots...but people seem to forget that he was a flop when he was a head-coach in Cleveland.

What he is doing with New England is very, very good...but before calling him a "genius" : let's remember he hasn't always won...

I wouldn't say he was a complete flop in Cleveland. He did make the playoffs and win a game (against the Patriots) at one point.

Leonidas · 01-24-2005, 04:27 AM

I wouldn't hold Belichick's days in Cleveland against him. He was only 38 and it was the very first time he was ever head coach of anything. That, plus the fact he was working for an owner more concerned with how to get his team out of town than winning games made it pretty hard for any coach to have succeeded there. Belichick himself admits he screwed up the Cleveland gig.

I think like any other career, it takes time to learn the trade. Very, very rarely do heach coaches or baseball managers succeed in their first time as the man. Which is unfortunate with the current mentality in the NFL of canning guys who don''t get instant results. This is one reason I respect Dan Rooney so much in Pittsburgh for sticking with Cowher. He realizes there's nobody in the market he can hire any better than Cowher so why make the typical knee jerk reaction and can him just because of one or two bad seasons.

Fritz · 01-24-2005, 06:05 AM

7 year ago my Aunt Sissy from Sandy Hook went for drinks with Belichick and she said his breath smelled liked canned tuna and he kept saying pull my finger

amdaily · 01-24-2005, 08:24 AM

Here's an article originally from an Ohio paper about some of the changes he has made since the Cleveland days: http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/sports/fo...0680254.htm?1c

rkmsuf · 01-24-2005, 08:29 AM

Brady played a tremendous game last night.

I give equal credit but I'll say that the players as a whole are much, much better than people want to give credit for.

QuikSand · 01-24-2005, 08:32 AM

It's the football equivalent of a perfect storm. Disciplined coach who seems to motivate well. Coordinators who get a lot out of their talent. A front office that makes excellent decisions in marshalling its limited resources. Specific players who respond well to the leadership and pressure situations they face. And an undeniable team chemistry that has so many guys willing to take on "for the team" roles and accept slots as cogs in a greater system.

I think it's especially remarkable to see a team like this put together in the modern era of free agency -- probably the first of its kind since the great Packer teams of the 1960s.

albionmoonlight · 01-24-2005, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

I'll say that the players as a whole are much, much better than people want to give credit for.

It's kind of funny. When we see the T.O.s and Keyshawns of the world, we look down our noses at them and complain that they are more into self promotion than winning.

But when we see a team of players who don't self-promote and showboat but just keep winning, we assume that they are not really all that good.

It kind of makes egregious self-promotion a little more understandable.

rkmsuf · 01-24-2005, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

It's kind of funny. When we see the T.O.s and Keyshawns of the world, we look down our noses at them and complain that they are more into self promotion than winning.

But when we see a team of players who don't self-promote and showboat but just keep winning, we assume that they are not really all that good.

It kind of makes egregious self-promotion a little more understandable.

That's a big part of it. Good point.

01-23-2005, 08:19 PM	#11
Havok College Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Florida	Bellicheck = a genius __________________ Maniacal Misfitz - We're better than you and we know it!

01-23-2005, 08:42 PM	#12
Sun Tzu Pro Starter Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: In the thick of it.	Sorry Havok, that name has already been taken. Please select another. __________________ I'm still here. Don't touch my fucking bacon.

01-23-2005, 09:04 PM	#16
Honolulu_Blue Hockey Boy Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Royal Oak, MI	Tom Brady. __________________ *Steve Yzerman*: 1,755 points in 1,514 regular season games. 185 points in 196 postseason games. A First-Team All-Star, Conn Smythe Trophy winner, Selke Trophy winner, Masterton Trophy winner, member of the Hockey Hall of Fame, Olympic gold medallist, and a three-time Stanley Cup Champion. Longest serving captain of one team in the history of the NHL (19 seasons).

01-23-2005, 09:06 PM	#17
SirFozzie Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: The State of Insanity	It's C) All of the Above. The Pats front office built this team, and the players EXECUTE. It's all of the Pats. __________________ Check out Foz's New Video Game Site, An 8-bit Mind in an 8GB world! http://an8bitmind.com

01-23-2005, 11:50 PM	#19
ISiddiqui Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Decatur, GA	Frankly, I'm going to wait to answer this question in exactly one year when Weis and Crennel are gone. I want to see how much they had to do with this (probably a decent deal). __________________ "A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams

01-23-2005, 06:20 PM	#2
Logan Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: NYC	Both. (sorry to take the 5th).

01-23-2005, 06:24 PM	#3
maximus Banned Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Where the system is screwed	It's just that this Patriot team has win all over it. It's not very direct but very subtle. They play with a great amount of confidence and it really shows.

01-23-2005, 06:55 PM	#4
Joe Pro Starter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Minneapolis	its the defense

01-23-2005, 06:56 PM	#5
Anthony Banned Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Astoria, NY, USA	it's the defense, so since Bellicheck is a defensive minded coach i'm gonna say he's the reason.

01-23-2005, 07:09 PM	#7
Yossarian High School Varsity Join Date: Jul 2003	Its the O and D co-ordinator. just watch the drop off next year...

01-23-2005, 07:37 PM	#8
Greyroofoo Pro Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Alabama	well it was bilicheck and not brady that beat the Colts last week

01-23-2005, 07:38 PM	#9
Joe Pro Starter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Minneapolis	so... how many yards did bill pass for?

01-23-2005, 08:00 PM	#10
j51 Mascot Join Date: Oct 2002	A ridiculously clutch kicker and a copious amount of luck.

01-23-2005, 11:57 PM	#20
Cap Ologist College Prospect Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Flower Mound, TX	Just think about the depth the Pats will have next year in the secondary if Law and Poole return without too much damage to their "current" ratings.

01-24-2005, 12:00 AM	#21
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	Law is all but gone. I think that's as good as done. As for Poole, I'm not sure what his contract status is.

01-24-2005, 12:28 AM	#22
Sharpieman Greatly Missed. (7/11/84-06/12/05) Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Palo Alto, CA	I think its both, but Brady gets way too much praise and Belichick gets way too little.

01-24-2005, 12:42 AM	#24
ISiddiqui Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Decatur, GA	The reason I'm not willing to give all the praise to Belichick is because I remember the Cleveland years. Perhaps it was a bad situation for him, but he wasn't that good at all with the Browns. __________________ "A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams

01-24-2005, 03:45 AM	#26
Darkiller FOF2 Guy Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Paris, France	Not taking anything away from Belichick's fantastic run with the Patriots...but people seem to forget that he was a flop when he was a head-coach in Cleveland. What he is doing with New England is very, very good...but before calling him a "genius" : let's remember he hasn't always won... __________________ FOF2 lives on / Continue to support the best game ever ! - Owner of the San Francisco 49ers in FOF2 - Charter member of the IHOF and owner of the Paris Musketeers franchise (FOF2004) - Chairman of the IHOF Hall of Fame - Athletic Director of the Brigham Young Cougars in TCY FOF Legend: Hall of Fame QB Brock Sheriff #5, one of the most popular player in Front Office Football history.

01-24-2005, 04:27 AM	#28
Leonidas College Benchwarmer Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: East Anglia	I wouldn't hold Belichick's days in Cleveland against him. He was only 38 and it was the very first time he was ever head coach of anything. That, plus the fact he was working for an owner more concerned with how to get his team out of town than winning games made it pretty hard for any coach to have succeeded there. Belichick himself admits he screwed up the Cleveland gig. I think like any other career, it takes time to learn the trade. Very, very rarely do heach coaches or baseball managers succeed in their first time as the man. Which is unfortunate with the current mentality in the NFL of canning guys who don''t get instant results. This is one reason I respect Dan Rooney so much in Pittsburgh for sticking with Cowher. He realizes there's nobody in the market he can hire any better than Cowher so why make the typical knee jerk reaction and can him just because of one or two bad seasons. __________________ Molon labe Last edited by Leonidas : 01-24-2005 at 04:28 AM.

01-24-2005, 06:05 AM	#29
Fritz Lethargic Hooligan Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: hello kitty found my wallet at a big tent revival and returned it with all the cash missing	7 year ago my Aunt Sissy from Sandy Hook went for drinks with Belichick and she said his breath smelled liked canned tuna and he kept saying pull my finger __________________ donkey, donkey, walk a little faster

01-24-2005, 08:24 AM	#30
amdaily College Prospect Join Date: Nov 2003	Here's an article originally from an Ohio paper about some of the changes he has made since the Cleveland days: http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/sports/fo...0680254.htm?1c

01-24-2005, 08:29 AM	#31
rkmsuf Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2001	Brady played a tremendous game last night. I give equal credit but I'll say that the players as a whole are much, much better than people want to give credit for. __________________ "Don't you have homes?" -- Judge Smales

01-24-2005, 08:32 AM	#32
QuikSand lolzcat Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Annapolis, Md	It's the football equivalent of a perfect storm. Disciplined coach who seems to motivate well. Coordinators who get a lot out of their talent. A front office that makes excellent decisions in marshalling its limited resources. Specific players who respond well to the leadership and pressure situations they face. And an undeniable team chemistry that has so many guys willing to take on "for the team" roles and accept slots as cogs in a greater system. I think it's especially remarkable to see a team like this put together in the modern era of free agency -- probably the first of its kind since the great Packer teams of the 1960s.

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