Is It Me?

[Anthony]

ok, you tell me if i'm right or wrong:

our group is starting to transition from young strapping bachelors to married men (starting with me 2 years ago). some of us who aren't married will be engaged guys (or soon to be) joining our "membership". however, there's still the core of the group who are single. we're all in our mid-to-late 20's, prime of our lives, and the single guys are living it up. trips to Vegas once a year, going out drinking several times a week, and about once a week or once every other week many of us will have a video game nite. i take part in the video game nites as much as possible, but obviously as a married guy i can be expected to go out drinking only so much - about more than half than what i used to when i was a bachelor.

so there's the dynamic of our group, one by one we're getting married, and the pool of single guys are dwindling by the year - as is the case with any group of friends.

i've long been one of the more outspoken members of our circle (go figure). i give credit where it's due and i call out guys when i see something wrong (thus, my online "personae" of Hell Atlantic is not much different than my actual self). Recently yet another one of us got married (11/04). This guy has cheated on his then g/f for years, even while he was engaged. obviously he's of a weaker will and moral fortitude than many. now, let me tell you about this single friend of mine. he's got the good job, starting taking care of his appearance, adopted a "skirt chaser" personality in recent years. nutshell: he's a normal unattached american male in his 20's. it's safe to assume that as a bachelor legally he's permitted to do things a married man can't. no shocking news here.

so here's my gripe:

our hard core bachelor just invited us to go to Vegas with some of his female friends. he also invited that newlywed friend of mine in the email. now, knowing the kind of guy the newlywed is - do you really think it's proper to invite him to the City of Sin? i've never been there, mind you, but i'm no spring chicken, i know what the deal is w/ Vegas (even though the place has moved to be more family-oriented than ever). this is akin to inviting a recovering alcoholic to a bar. why place that tempation and stress on a guy? i was like "what exactly is a married guy gonna do in Vegas with a bunch of single guys?". the hard core bachelor friend of mine isn't really a guy's guy - he's not into sports whatsoever and i've called him out for not being able to do male-bonding activities (spare me the corny joke posts dealing with 'male-bonding activities' please). he doesn't gamble. just goes to clubs and drinks and tries to pick up girls. i know i wouldn't want to be in that environment and my friends have now learned better than to invite me to Vegas outings. so i just commented on perhaps inviting a newly married guy with a bad track record of fidelity is the best option.

or am i just overreacting and is it all just totally cool to be a bachelor and try to get your married friends to do things that involve single girls.

[Fritz]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

ok, you tell me if i'm right or wrong:

didn't read your post, but you are likely wrong.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Fritz

didn't read your post, but you are likely wrong.

ok, so you are gay? question answered.

[rkmsuf]

Well I'm sure your friend would feel bad if he wasn't even invited.

It's up to the married dude to set his own boundaries. That's not your job.

[Fritz]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

ok, so you are gay? question answered.

no, just waiting for your $10,000 check before I let you blow me.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Fritz

didn't read your post, but you are likely wrong.

Gold.

[Klinglerware]

Vegas is for everyone, even the kiddies! (Or that's what their marketing people were tellling me in the mid 90s.)

[rkmsuf]

So basically it is you.

[cuervo72]

I think your friend is just taunting you! Are you going to take that from him?

[JonInMiddleGA]

I tend to agree with rkmsuf on this I think.

I'm not seeing any reason not to invite the newlywed guy along for the trip, other than the fact that he's married. I'd probably have been offended/hurt/pissed if my crowd omitted me from something solely for that reason.

Now, that said -- I think the guy prolly needs his head examined if he actually goes on the trip (unless he's really got his act together with regard to his wedding vows), but that's a call he deserves a chance to make for himself. If he _doesn't_ deserve that chance, well, I'm not sure exactly why you'd be inviting him in the first place, because that seems pretty close to designating him an asshole.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Well I'm sure your friend would feel bad if he wasn't even invited.

It's up to the married dude to set his own boundaries. That's not your job.

so let's say if you were a recovering drug addict who had a history of relaspes you would want to be invited to a party where there was gonna be drugs?

i'm trying to see if i'm being the nag, or if i'm doing the right thing by trying to be a positive influence on my friends and let them see that things have to change somewhat because the single guys can't pretend some of us have wives. there should be ways for everyone to hang out and it not have to include me or any married guy sitting on the sidelines with drinks in hand watching the bachelors hook up.

[Anthony]

let's steer this discussion back on topic. the topic isn't "is Vegas kid friendly".

edit: time/post bug. should be after Jon's post.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

(Or that's what their marketing people were tellling me in the mid 90s.)

{shrug} My kid, soon to turn 7, ranks Vegas second only to Orlando, FL as his favorite place on earth, after just a single trip there.

I wouldn't want to try to entertain a young child there for a solid week, but there's more than enough things to make a very full & fun day (and night) for kids for at least 3 days, especially if you've got some sort of event filling up most of the nighttime hours.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

so let's say if you were a recovering drug addict who had a history of relaspes you would want to be invited to a party where there was gonna be drugs?

i'm trying to see if i'm being the nag, or if i'm doing the right thing by trying to be a positive influence on my friends and let them see that things have to change somewhat because the single guys can't pretend some of us have wives. there should be ways for everyone to hang out and it not have to include me or any married guy sitting on the sidelines with drinks in hand watching the bachelors hook up.

I think you are overstating your influence.

People make choices. You can't be the world's babysitter.

Now if you want to make a case you should pull your friend aside prior to the trip and talk about this subject I'd be all for it. Otherwise I'd treat him with the same respect as any other friend and not "censor" or "protect" him. That ain't doing anyone any favors.

Everyone has married and single friends in this world. You would like to thing the married folk got married for a reason but if they didn't good luck helping them all find their way in the world.

[Klinglerware]

Didn't mean to steer the thread in that direction--my comment really just meant "if Vegas is good enough for a kid, it's good enough for your married friend"...

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I tend to agree with rkmsuf on this I think.

I'm not seeing any reason not to invite the newlywed guy along for the trip, other than the fact that he's married. I'd probably have been offended/hurt/pissed if my crowd omitted me from something solely for that reason.

Now, that said -- I think the guy prolly needs his head examined if he actually goes on the trip (unless he's really got his act together with regard to his wedding vows), but that's a call he deserves a chance to make for himself. If he _doesn't_ deserve that chance, well, I'm not sure exactly why you'd be inviting him in the first place, because that seems pretty close to designating him an asshole.

ahhhhh...that's the thing man. highly unlikely he's got his act together. we're talking about someone who took out "marriage insurance" at his reception hall. the insurance was that he'd get his money back if there was a chance the wedding never happened.

my question is not so much "what can a married guy do in Vegas" - it's more "why should our single friends invite a marreid guy with a shady history when it comes to being faithful to Vegas just so he can be tempted and watch all the single guys have their "fun"?

keep in mind - i'm the party animal of the group. and i'm the last guy who wants to admit the party is over. but times, they do change and you have to acknowledge that.

[Tigercat]

You either don't support the newlywed guy's choices or you don't worry about him, its a simple as that. If you choose not to support him as someone who is getting married(along with other faithful married guys in your group and such) you confront him along with not putting him in positions to further damage his marrage. But if you are inclined to stay out of his buisness, stay out of his buisness when it comes to your friend gatherings too. Let him run his own life. But you can't let a friend hurt his marrage at one point and then decide that just because hes doing it in close proximity to you that thats bad.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

I think you are overstating your influence.

People make choices. You can't be the world's babysitter.

Now if you want to make a case you should pull your friend aside prior to the trip and talk about this subject I'd be all for it. Otherwise I'd treat him with the same respect as any other friend and not "censor" or "protect" him. That ain't doing anyone any favors.

Everyone has married and single friends in this world. You would like to thing the married folk got married for a reason but if they didn't good luck helping them all find their way in the world.

point noted. very good post.

[SunDancer]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

{shrug} My kid, soon to turn 7, ranks Vegas second only to Orlando, FL as his favorite place on earth, after just a single trip there.

I wouldn't want to try to entertain a young child there for a solid week, but there's more than enough things to make a very full & fun day (and night) for kids for at least 3 days, especially if you've got some sort of event filling up most of the nighttime hours.

Interesting. Isn't Vegas starting to move back towards an "Adults-Only" trend right now?

Anyways,
I think that hes in control in himself. Dont you have single women everywhere? Vegas may have a rep, but don't think the the women in your place are less "flirty".

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Didn't mean to steer the thread in that direction--my comment really just meant "if Vegas is good enough for a kid, it's good enough for your married friend"...

no prob. once i've came to my conclusion then free discussion can commence.

[SunDancer]

HA,
Where exactly will you go in Vegas? Stay on the Strip?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Tigercat

You either don't support the newlywed guy's choices or you don't worry about him, its a simple as that. If you choose not to support him as someone who is getting married(along with other faithful married guys in your group and such) you confront him along with not putting him in positions to further damage his marrage. But if you are inclined to stay out of his buisness, stay out of his buisness when it comes to your friend gatherings too. Let him run his own life. But you can't let a friend hurt his marrage at one point and then decide that just because hes doing it in close proximity to you that thats bad.

well, i wouldn't have him as a friend if i didn't worry about him. and i don't want to make this just about my newlywed friend with prior "commitment issues". i'm talking in general. do you or do you not agree that single guys should try to not necessarily turn into family guys themselves, but keep in mind that our activities just can't possibly involve going out to clubs to try to pick up girls?

i'm not trying to impose my morals on any of my friends, but i just think it's bad form to essentially say "nevermind your marriage, hang out with us and watch us pick up girls". i had another thread a few days ago where i said "i still got it" cuz some girl approached me and i had to turn her away. i loved the attention and by golly it was a shame to turn down effortless vag (effortless vag is vag that just falls in your lap without you even trying). i've cut down on my hanging out at bars solely to prevent putting myself in those situations. not that i'd break down and cheat, mind you, but you still don't want to play with fire just because you don't intend to get burnt.

i told my friends i don't mind at all going to bars to hang with the guys and drink beer and watch sports. those are activities where the single guys aren't in "hunt-mode" and we can just be ourselves. it's when they want to get all dolled up and go to dance clubs that i've quickly pulled out of doing.

[JHandley]

HA, I see where you're coming from, and I think it's a noble intention. However, back to your analogy of inviting a drug addict to a drug filled party, it's been my experience if the person wants to do drugs, no amount of trying to steer them clear will help. It is up to that person to make a personal decision to clean up their life. Intervention only helps in making the person see what damage they are doing to their life and to the people they love. It's still their choice to take action.

I've also always held the belief that cheating has really very little to do with having sex. Much like rape has very little to do with sex. I've found that people cheat for one of two reasons. Either they want to see if they can get away with it, or they want to be caught. Obviously, I don't know anything about your friend and his new bride, but as a general rule, I find it very hard to believe he's cheating because he can't get any at home. It's more likely that he either likes the adventure of "getting away with it" or that he is unhappy being married and is hoping to get caught, thus ending the relationship.

Either way, it's his choice to accept the invitation. You said that your friends have learned not to invite you on their escapades. They learned this because you told them you didn't want to go, so inviting you was a waste of time. This guy hasn't made that clear.

Edit: I just want it noted that I got interupted during this post, so that's why it looks like I'm just repeating what everyone else said

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by SunDancer

HA,
Where exactly will you go in Vegas? Stay on the Strip?

i'm not going bro. i've never been there. i used to tell my friends that i'd like to go to Vegas first with my wife and then i'd go with them once the wife is out of the way. but now i'm wondering out loud exactly what the hell i'd do down there that i wouldn't do here in good ole NYC.

becuase neither my wife or i has been to Vegas before we want to go together first. i've travelled a lot when i was younger and she didn't go anywhere so there arent many places she'd like to go that i haven't been to. in the interest of having a place we'd both get to experience together for the first time i've long refrained on going to Vegas. but, like i said the more i think about it the more i see i just wouldn't have as good a time as a bachelor. i'm not a gambler (i only do Roulette and some black jack) and i'm certainly not into those gay shows, so that really leaves a lot of options out when trying to have things to do that doesn't involve Vegas clubs.

from what i'm reading i'm getting the feeling that indeed i may be overreacting and shouldn't try to get in anyone's way. i wasn't trying to be anyone's mother, just trying to do what i thought i good friend would do and steer my friends into doing things that both single and married guys could do together.

[AnalBumCover]

Geez, there's more to Vegas than just gambling, alcohol, and sex.....



[cue crickets]

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

I tend to agree with JIMGA and rkmsuf. I only have one question - can I send Arlie with you guys? I really need a weekend to myself.

[cartman]

I can't believe it hasn't been pointed out yet, but...

what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by JHandley

HA, I see where you're coming from, and I think it's a noble intention. However, back to your analogy of inviting a drug addict to a drug filled party, it's been my experience if the person wants to do drugs, no amount of trying to steer them clear will help. It is up to that person to make a personal decision to clean up their life. Intervention only helps in making the person see what damage they are doing to their life and to the people they love. It's still their choice to take action.

I've also always held the belief that cheating has really very little to do with having sex. Much like rape has very little to do with sex. I've found that people cheat for one of two reasons. Either they want to see if they can get away with it, or they want to be caught. Obviously, I don't know anything about your friend and his new bride, but as a general rule, I find it very hard to believe he's cheating because he can't get any at home. It's more likely that he either likes the adventure of "getting away with it" or that he is unhappy being married and is hoping to get caught, thus ending the relationship.

Either way, it's his choice to accept the invitation. You said that your friends have learned not to invite you on their escapades. They learned this because you told them you didn't want to go, so inviting you was a waste of time. This guy hasn't made that clear.

Edit: I just want it noted that I got interupted during this post, so that's why it looks like I'm just repeating what everyone else said

thank you JH. i mostly agree with your point. i consider myself a guy's guy, so i wanted to make sure my intentions were looking like that of a concerned friend and not a nagging whiner. judging by what looks to be the previlaing sentiment here i think it's be i refrain from voicing my displeasure to my friends over their choice of activities and who they invite to partake in those activities.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by cartman

I can't believe it hasn't been pointed out yet, but...

what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.

i think it'd be bad form for a married guy in our group to cheat in front of any of us. i can keep a secret with the best of them, but i wouldn't want to carry that burden. if i ever was the type to cheat on my wife i'd do it in private, so that only i would carry that guilt on my conscience. i would really hate to witness infidelity among my friends and have to essentially look their wives in the eyes and lie to her.

[Fritz]

you could look her in the eye and tell her, then give her the big HAbone.

[rkmsuf]

You can't go wrong using this board as your compass.

Makes life like shooting fish in a barrel.

[SunDancer]

Originally Posted by Farrah Whitworth-Rahn

I tend to agree with JIMGA and rkmsuf. I only have one question - can I send Arlie with you guys? I really need a weekend to myself.

I'll come down and keep you company.

[gottimd]

Originally Posted by AnalBumCover

[cue crickets]

[cartman]

of all people HA you should realize this:

When faced with a dilemma, all you have to do is ask yourself "What would Dean Houston do?". Once you figure this out, all you need at that point is the number of a bail bondsman and an attorney,

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

i think it'd be bad form for a married guy in our group to cheat in front of any of us. i can keep a secret with the best of them, but i wouldn't want to carry that burden. if i ever was the type to cheat on my wife i'd do it in private, so that only i would carry that guilt on my conscience. i would really hate to witness infidelity among my friends and have to essentially look their wives in the eyes and lie to her.

If a married friend cheated on his wife in front of me I would have to question his friendship by placing that type of burden on me.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by dangarion

If a married friend cheated on his wife in front of me I would have to question his friendship by placing that type of burden on me.

it's only a matter of time with the "newlywed". it was a complete shock when he told us he was engaged.

he told us he was engaged right after he got off the phone with some girl he met when we went up to Boston for a weekend during a Yankees/Red Sox ALCS game (the one where Pedro threw Don Zimmer).

edit: but here's the thing, dan, with my group of friends it's like funny he's not the most faithful guy. everyone cracks jokes about him being that way (he hasn't cheated yet as a married man), like it's something cool. so they're creating this environment where it's not shameful to cheat on one's wife.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

it's only a matter of time with the "newlywed". it was a complete shock when he told us he was engaged.

he told us he was engaged right after he got off the phone with some girl he met when we went up to Boston for a weekend during a Yankees/Red Sox ALCS game (the one where Pedro threw Don Zimmer).

edit: but here's the thing, dan, with my group of friends it's like funny he's not the most faithful guy. everyone cracks jokes about him being that way (he hasn't cheated yet as a married man), like it's something cool. so they're creating this environment where it's not shameful to cheat on one's wife.

I'd probably have a tough time with any of my friends that acted that way. It's one thing to act like a guy and "talk the talk" but it's another thing to really egg another friend to do it, and by the way you are explaining they have no respect for him or his marriage (I'm assuming because of his former unfaithfulness in dating relationships).

[cthomer5000]

what will he do in Vegas? be entertained by you, the life of the party.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by dangarion

I'd probably have a tough time with any of my friends that acted that way. It's one thing to act like a guy and "talk the talk" but it's another thing to really egg another friend to do it, and by the way you are explaining they have no respect for him or his marriage (I'm assuming because of his former unfaithfulness in dating relationships).

you assume correctly.

put it this way. his last name is Vos. his nickname after he got married was D-Vos. (get it?...har dee har har).

they don't egg him on in terms of encouraging him, more like it's just accepted it's a matter of time, not if. which is why i'm saying i didn't think it's right for single guys to include him in in Vegas trips - who would want to be responsible for ruining a marriage? granted based on prior history it looks like he'll do it with or without the help of his friends, i just i know i wouldn't want to be known as the catalyst. if i was single and organizing the trip i could see myself telling him to maybe sit this one out.

but i'm taking the advice of the clear majority of this thread and will keep my sentiments to myself going forward.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

what will he do in Vegas? be entertained by you, the life of the party.

i'm not going unfortunately. an underlying theme of this thread was that i didn't think Vegas is worth it for a married guy surrounded by his bachelor friends.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

i'm not going unfortunately. an underlying theme of this thread was that i didn't think Vegas is worth it for a married guy surrounded by his bachelor friends.

Perhaps I'm just too permissive of a wife, but I don't understand this way of thinking. Just because there's a ring on your finger doesn't mean you can't go out with the guys, get stupid drunk, and hang out with other girls.

Of course I fully expect the same freedom.

[JonInMiddleGA]

HA - I've probably just gotten lost along the way somewhere but ...

You're married (or attached or "not prowling" or whatever) and you're not going.
But were you invited?
And were any of the other married guys invited? (whether they're going or not)

That's the part I'm kinda honed in on here -- it isn't whether the guy decides to go
(I probably wouldn't, you wouldn't, etc.) that I'm seeing at question, but whether he should be invited.

Among any group of friends that I've been a part of, the invitation would be the critical thing to avoid any problems -- either all the married guys of equal standing in the group get invited OR none of the married guys get invited. Anything else courts some hard feelings IMO, maybe substantial hard feelings.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Farrah Whitworth-Rahn

Perhaps I'm just too permissive of a wife, but I don't understand this way of thinking.

FWIW, I don't think you're being all that unusually permissive, or at least not uniquely so.

I've been to Vegas alone several times since getting married. My wife has a very BTDT thing about the town, whereas I consider it pretty much paradise.
As long as my going doesn't entail her being forced to go, I can take off as I see fit.

By the same token, she takes off when possible for things she truly loves, such as an antique auction tonight down in Alabama. She's gone alone at times, she's gone with friends (like this weekend). I'm equally content to let her go do things she loves as long as they don't require me to do something that I'd enjoy about as much as a root canal.

I won't claim this is the majority of marriages, but I believe it's more common that a lot of people might suspect (I know several other couples who operate on the same basic premise).

[SunDancer]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

FWIW, I don't think you're being all that unusually permissive, or at least not uniquely so.

I've been to Vegas alone several times since getting married. My wife has a very BTDT thing about the town, whereas I consider it pretty much paradise.
As long as my going doesn't entail her being forced to go, I can take off as I see fit.

By the same token, she takes off when possible for things she truly loves, such as an antique auction tonight down in Alabama. She's gone alone at times, she's gone with friends (like this weekend). I'm equally content to let her go do things she loves as long as they don't require me to do something that I'd enjoy about as much as a root canal.

I won't claim this is the majority of marriages, but I believe it's more common that a lot of people might suspect (I know several other couples who operate on the same basic premise).

That sounds like a good solution.

I am guessing that as long as you know your boundaries and are going just to have a good time with your friends (and not other people of the opposite sex that you might come across), it sounds like its all fair.

Though, I must prefer a weekend in Vegas then an antique show.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by Farrah Whitworth-Rahn

Perhaps I'm just too permissive of a wife, but I don't understand this way of thinking. Just because there's a ring on your finger doesn't mean you can't go out with the guys, get stupid drunk, and hang out with other girls.

Of course I fully expect the same freedom.

Of course, I don't think Arlie will mind if you get stupid drunk and hang out with other girls.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Of course, I don't think Arlie will mind if you get stupid drunk and hang out with other girls.

Are you sassing me? You knew what I meant.

[SunDancer]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Of course, I don't think Arlie will mind if you get stupid drunk and hang out with other girls.

Only if the other girls are hot though.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SunDancer

Only if the other girls are hot though.

Or at least photogenic.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Or at least photogenic.

pix pls! kthx!

[korme]

Vegas, baby, Vegas!


I think you are being a very good friend for your concern, HA.