Big Mac's secret sauce

[rafini]

Canseco: Bush had to know about steroids

ESPN.com news services

After months of talking about naming names in a tell-all book, retired slugger Jose Canseco is about to do just that.
The New York Daily New published details of the former slugger's book, which is still in the editing stages, in Sunday's editions.
Canseco writes that he personally injected Mark McGwire with the drug and that he saw McGwire and Jason Giambi inject each other, according to the paper.
McGwire, who has long denied steroid use, said in a statement to the paper: "I have always told the truth and I am saddened that I continue to face this line of questioning. With regard to this book, I am reserving comment until I have the chance to review its contents myself."
Giambi's agent, Arn Tellem, took issue with Canseco's credibility.
"This book, which attacks baseball and many of its players, was written to make a quick buck by a guy desperate for attention, who has appeared on more police blotters then line-up cards in recent years, has no runs, no hits and is all errors," Tellem told the Daily News.
Canseco writes that President Bush "had to have been aware" of rampant steroid use on the Texas Rangers when he owned the club in the early 1990s, the Daily News reported.
Canseco also claims he introduced the performance enhancers to Rafael Palmeiro, Ivan Rodriguez, and Juan Gonzalez when he joined the Rangers in 1992.
The White House had no comment on Canseco's specific allegation, but did say the President called on leagues and players unions to eradicate steroid use in his 2004 State of the Union address.
The book is due in bookstores Feb. 21.

[Suicane75]

There were 37 things I thought this thread might be about. Cansecos book was not 1 of them.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

So Canseco & Palmero took Viagra toghther??? And Bush knew about this???

[LloydLungs]

I really thought this thread was going to be about the "I'D HIT IT" McDonald's dollar menu guy.

[korme]

NOT PUDGE!!!!!!!!!!!

[markprior22]

I was at the game when McGwire hit # 62. Even though I'm a Cubs fan, I am first and foremost a baseball fan and was so excited to be present at an event like that. I guess I was naive and enjoying the moment too much to admit something had to be up. As the years passed, I've accepted that the whole "homerun explosion" was/is a complete farce. Not just McGwire, but Sammy, Bonds and a bunch of others. It really pisses me off that this "good thing" couldn't be true. I am a huge baseball fan and will continue to follow the game but it probably won't ever be the same for me. I think that, as far as spending money goes, I will probably skip the MLB games for a while and take my son to Peoria to watch the Cubs A team. Those kids play baseball at a decent level and for $ 9.00 or so, you can sit in the first row and enjoy a "clean" game.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by rafini

Canseco writes that he personally injected Mark McGwire ... and that he saw McGwire and Jason Giambi inject each other.

gay and gay

[Deattribution]

This thread would have 30+ post if it weren't named so poorly.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by rafini
Canseco writes that he personally injected Mark McGwire ... and that he saw McGwire and Jason Giambi inject each other.

Nothing wrong with a little male bonding.

[Sharpieman]

Originally Posted by markprior22

I was at the game when McGwire hit # 62. Even though I'm a Cubs fan, I am first and foremost a baseball fan and was so excited to be present at an event like that. I guess I was naive and enjoying the moment too much to admit something had to be up. As the years passed, I've accepted that the whole "homerun explosion" was/is a complete farce. Not just McGwire, but Sammy, Bonds and a bunch of others. It really pisses me off that this "good thing" couldn't be true. I am a huge baseball fan and will continue to follow the game but it probably won't ever be the same for me. I think that, as far as spending money goes, I will probably skip the MLB games for a while and take my son to Peoria to watch the Cubs A team. Those kids play baseball at a decent level and for $ 9.00 or so, you can sit in the first row and enjoy a "clean" game.

Actually, minor league baseball isn't immune to steriod use, if its in the majors, it has to be in the minors, so the game isnt that decent.

[SunDevil]

Regardless of where the steroids are. I have been to a number of minor league games, and must say I get more excited and feel more like a kid again when I am at a stadium watching minor league baseball then when I go see a major league team. Exceptions are the Red Sox.

[DaddyTorgo]

actually the steriod use in the minors is minimal compared to that in the majors because the minors has a very very stringent testing policy.

[Ragone]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

actually the steriod use in the minors is minimal compared to that in the majors because the minors has a very very stringent testing policy.

By Stringent he means once a year.. and after that you are home free to bulk up on the roids

[DaddyTorgo]

awwww geez. do i hafta go find the minors testing program details??

[Ragone]

Just agree with me that the minors program is probably very easy to get around.. and we won't need to go into it

[SunDevil]

I read an article maybe 4 or 5 months ago during the baseball season, saying that the minor league steroid policy really did not work to prevent use, with numerous stories of officials not being able to find or hunt down players during the offseason to test them and numerous other failings of the tests. But I read that it is working in the sense that players are thinking twice about trying to get away with it.

[SunDevil]

I agree its easy to get around

[DaddyTorgo]

Minor league baseball
Each minor leaguer is subject to as many as four unannounced tests per year, in-season and out-of-season. In addition, there can be testing for reasonable cause if a player is suspected of illegal drug use. The tests are for performance enhancing drugs such as steroids and some steroid precursors and pro-hormones, as well as street drugs, such as marijuana and cocaine. The first time a player tests positive for steroid use, he is suspended for 15 games. Penalties escalate until the fifth violation, when a player is permanently banned from minor league baseball. All suspensions are without pay.


from http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dw...ing.55c69.html

[Ragone]

Ok.. up to 4 a year.. and how many minor leaguers are there? during the season when they are bouncing around on a bus from town to town.. you think all these tests are monitored by league officials? :P

[DaddyTorgo]

true. but it's better than the policy they have in place in the majors. Not that that is a very difficult thing.

[Ragone]

Like i said earlier.. not like thats saying much

you do realize a player only needs to play something like 2 years in the majors to qualify for a retirement pension.. so the allure to bulk/roid up to get those 2 years in is high

[markprior22]

Originally Posted by Sharpieman

Actually, minor league baseball isn't immune to steriod use, if its in the majors, it has to be in the minors, so the game isnt that decent.

I don't recall seeing any cartoon like muscle bound players or players hitting an ungodly amount of home runs.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by rafini

Giambi's agent, Arn Tellem, took issue with Canseco's credibility.
"This book, which attacks baseball and many of its players, was written to make a quick buck by a guy desperate for attention, who has appeared on more police blotters then line-up cards in recent years, has no runs, no hits and is all errors," Tellem told the Daily News.

How long do you think it took Tellem to come up with that no hits, all errors line?

[Swaggs]

Where is the "Easy Mac's secret sauce" spoof thread?

[rkmsuf]

DO IT!

[Draft Dodger]

wait, you think a guy goes from


to this



by using unnatural means?
really?

[WSUCougar]

Regardless of any other truths or opinions that come out concerning Mark McGwire, Jose Canseco has zero credibility. None, zilch, nada.

[rkmsuf]

If someone starts talking about Big Mac's all beef patties I'm out of here.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

Regardless of any other truths or opinions that come out concerning Mark McGwire, Jose Canseco has zero credibility. None, zilch, nada.

I would have said nil, zot, zippo.

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I would have said nil, zot, zippo.

Must be a regional thing.

[Ragone]

Those guys he implicated all of course immediately denied the usage of steroids..

It should be interesting to see if any of them try and sue canseco.. the publishing company.. But i get the feeling everyone he implicated probably is guilty.

I don't take what canseco says as the whole truth.. as clearly he has a agenda, and probably needed the money. But Mlb is kidding itself if they just dismiss this as the ranting of a bitter ex player

[Suicane75]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't it pretty much a given that Canseco was juiced when he was in his prime, i mean everyone could tell. MLB didn't give a fuck then so fuck em. They've allowed these big oafs to tarnish the record books and didn't give a single shit as long as the money was coming in. I don't give a shit if Canseco is only 10% truthfull, they all know who is using and fuck em for not stepping up, fuck em all.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Where is the "Easy Mac's secret sauce" spoof thread?

You'd have to ask my girlfriend about it. She's currently the only one who knows where it is, and she's not too keen on giving it away.

(prays she won't read this)

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

You'd have to ask my girlfriend about it. She's currently the only one who knows where it is, and she's not too keen on giving it away.

(prays she won't read this)

Its not a secret if your napkins, bath tub and her know about it

[Easy Mac]

nah, napkins clog the drain.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

nah, napkins clog the drain.

Very true....so I have heard.

[Arles]

Mark McGwire's stats and Canseco timeline:

1987 - 49 HRs
1988 - 32 HRs
1989 - 33 HRs
1990 - 39 HRs
(Canseco injects McGwire with steroids)
1991 - 22 HRs
1992 - 42 HRs
1993 - 9 HRs
1994 - 9 HRs
1995 - 39 HRs

Yeah, I can see a definite power boost from that. There are only 4 seasons in McGwire's career where he hit more HRs than his rookie season. He strikes me as a natural power hitter who (after three seasons of injury) started to take better care of his back and had a nice career.

[Arles]

Posted this on another forum, figured I'd dola here with it:

ONE OF these days, Mark McGwire is going to face the questions that every other accused baseball steroid cheat has faced, and will face until it all gets resolved.

But before that, McGwire needs to face one other question that is even more important than the others:

When did you become a made man?

McGwire is untouchable, exempt, a sacred cow. Suggest that this scandal in any way brushes against him, and be prepared to face the consequences.

Why?

My guess is saving the sport after the strike gets him some leeway. You think if some drug scandle in hockey came out implicating Wayne Gretzky and Jari Kurri that Wayne wouldn't get more leeway? There are other reasons that follow ...

Find a substantial difference between Bonds' career arc and McGwire's

Sure, and it's not all that hard. McGwire had 49 HRs in his rookie season and hit over 31 HRs in each of his first 4 seasons (ave 38.25). Now, let's look at Bonds. He hit over 30 HRs (33) just once in his first 6 seasons. In his first four, he averaged 21. Seems like one of these guys was a natural power hitter while the other needed "an edge" to become one.

Seven years later, Sosa is so smeared, the dirt carried all the way from Chicago to Baltimore.

OK, in Sosa's first five seasons (used 5 pro-rated instead of 4 because one didn't have many ABs), he averaged 18.2 HRs.

Nobody ever believed Giambi, and yesterday he acknowledged he had told the truth to the BALCO grand jury. Which means he'd lied to reporters the previous spring.

In Giambi's first four seasons (pro-rated for ABs), he averaged 20.2 HRs.

Another example of how lies are the fabric that weaves this story together. With that in mind, nobody should be untouchable. So far, only one major figure is.

It would be nice to know why.

Maybe I'm missing something. But if you look at how all these other guys started (around 15-20 HRs for their first 4-5 seasons) and how they suddenly jumped 20-25 HRs midway through their career (right about the time steroids hit), it isn't hard to put the pieces together for some steroid use. Of course, when a player starts with 49 HRs and averages 38 a season before steroids are even on the table, it becomes a harder sell that he got his power from juice.

[Tekneek]

Was steroid use illegal during this time? Were these guys breaking existing criminal law? I know they weren't breaking baseball law.

[Swaggs]

Does anyone actually belive that Jose Canseco, Ken Caminitti, and Jason Giambi were the only ones taking steroids?

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Does anyone actually belive that Jose Canseco, Ken Caminitti, and Jason Giambi were the only ones taking steroids?

Certainly not, but I think that we have on two ways of determining whether they were or not. One is second hand comments and the other is their stats. Players like Bardy Anderson, Caminitti, Giambi and Bonds had double digit swings (for Bonds it was 19) in their AB/HR ratios. This tells me that something may have been up to change someone like Bonds that was about 1 HR every 22 ABs early in his career to being 1 ever 6 later. For McGwire, his ratio was pretty consistent. He was about 11 in 1987, 11 again in 1992 and topped out at around 7.5. That's a change of around 3-4 AB/HR. IMO, if you take out McGwire's injured seasons of 1991 and 1994, there is no real statistical evidence of him juicing - especially when you look at the numbers for the other guys.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Arles

Certainly not, but I think that we have on two ways of determining whether they were or not. One is second hand comments and the other is their stats. Players like Bardy Anderson, Caminitti, Giambi and Bonds had double digit swings (for Bonds it was 19) in their AB/HR ratios. This tells me that something may have been up to change someone like Bonds that was about 1 HR every 22 ABs early in his career to being 1 ever 6 later. For McGwire, his ratio was pretty consistent. He was about 11 in 1987, 11 again in 1992 and topped out at around 7.5. That's a change of around 3-4 AB/HR. IMO, if you take out McGwire's injured seasons of 1991 and 1994, there is no real statistical evidence of him juicing - especially when you look at the numbers for the other guys.

While 11 to 7.6 might not seem like a big jump, you need to consider the age of McGwire at the time

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Danny Drickman

While 11 to 7.6 might not seem like a big jump, you need to consider the age of McGwire at the time

It's almost non-existent when you look at the difference in time periods. 49 HRs in 1988 would be about the same as 56 HRs in 1998 (Rob Neyer just did a recent study on this). Plus, it's not all that uncommon for power hitter to have very good seasons in their mid 30s. Look at Mantle. In his early 20s, he averaged 1 HR every 18-20 ABs. When he was 33, he hit one every 13.3 ABs. When he was 35, he hit one every 12.8 ABs. I don't think anyone is accusing Mantle of juicing. So, McGwire going from 11 at 24 to 7.6 at the age of 35 seems to fit that profile.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Arles

It's almost non-existent when you look at the difference in time periods. 49 HRs in 1988 would be about the same as 56 HRs in 1998 (Rob Neyer just did a recent study on this). Plus, it's not all that uncommon for power hitter to have very good seasons in their mid 30s. Look at Mantle. In his early 20s, he averaged 1 HR every 18-20 ABs. When he was 33, he hit one every 13.3 ABs. When he was 35, he hit one every 12.8 ABs. I don't think anyone is accusing Mantle of juicing. So, McGwire going from 11 at 24 to 7.6 at the age of 35 seems to fit that profile.

McGwire hit 49 in 87, an unusual year (for the 80s) when it came to home run hitting. I recall people saying "the ball was juiced" that year and all of that--even Boggs hit 24 that year.

And of course, McGwire has admitted to using Androstenedione, a testosterone booster banned in most major sports. Looking in retrospect on Caminiti's injury proneness, who knows about McGwire injury problems...

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

McGwire hit 49 in 87, an unusual year (for the 80s) when it came to home run hitting. I recall people saying "the ball was juiced" that year and all of that--even Boggs hit 24 that year.

But he went on to hit 32+ for the next three seasons as well. It wasn't like his 49 was a Brady Anderson or Boggs-type season that was out of character. As an FYI, Bonds only hit 25 in 87 (551 ABs).

And of course, McGwire has admitted to using Androstenedione, a testosterone booster banned in most major sports.

This is a great point. Should we penalize an athlete for using a substance deemed legal by the FDA and the MLB? I really don't see how you can - any player could have legally used Creatine or Andro during the 90s (and many did).

Looking in retrospect on Caminiti's injury proneness, who knows about McGwire injury problems...

McGwire has back problems in the early 90s (91, 93 and 94), but he was fine after 1994. Since most of his weight (and power) increase occurred in the 95-98 time frame, I can't see how the injuries and steroids would be related. For guys like Canseco and Caminiti, their injuries occured 5-6 seasons after they started steroids.

[Swaggs]

A few thoughts:

It is tough to say what is natural progression for a hitter versus potential steroid use and I'm not really sure what to look for when considering it.

To me, there are kind of two routes to look at. There are the guys who had one or two abnormal power season, like Brady Anderson and even Barry Larkin and Ryne Sandberg had.

Then there are the guys who were regulars for a few years, like Steve Finley, Bret Boone, and Garrett Anderson, who suddenly just got "it."

I'm sure there are players in both categories throughout history, but does one seem more suspicious (as far as steroid use) than the other? There could be many explanations to power increases like new hitting coaches, more aggressive training routines (w/ and w/o steroids), being asked to fill a different role.

[Arles]

Swaggs, I think those are very good questions. I've followed Steve Finley's career pretty close and seen many interviews with him. He attributes his increase in power to two things. First, his role change from a No. 1 or 2 hitter to a middle of the order guy. If you look early in his career he was more of a contact guy (.330 - .350 OBP, only 50-60 Ks, a lot more SBs). Then, starting in 96, he became more of a power hitter and he said his swing changed with the San Diego hitting coach. Instead of striking out 50 times, he was striking out 90+ times and hitting more homers. He was also stealing fewer bases. His second reason was that he said he started taking care of his body better and getting more into flexibility. That helped him get more power as well. There was an article about him a while back on this and it was pretty interesting. At any rate, I would think that these items you mentioned would have more of an effect.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Arles

McGwire has back problems in the early 90s (91, 93 and 94), but he was fine after 1994. Since most of his weight (and power) increase occurred in the 95-98 time frame, I can't see how the injuries and steroids would be related. For guys like Canseco and Caminiti, their injuries occured 5-6 seasons after they started steroids.

I wouldn't say he was completely fine after 94. McGwire's games played versus team games played:

1995: 104/144
1996: 130/162
1997: 156/162
1998: 155/163
1999: 153/161
2000: 89/162
2001: 97/299

McGwire admitted to have started on creatine in 1994 and andro in 1997. Perhaps he started on the andro in order to heal his body faster (much like the Bonds rumor on how he got started on steroids), and it seems to have helped in that 97-99 period. His body finally gave out by 2000, whether it was due to advancing age, or the deleterious long-term effects of andro or anything else he was taking.

Not sure why McGwire is considered untouchable--after all, he readily admitted to taking a chemical that contributes to muscle growth (andro), a substance banned by almost every sport (and which the FDA finally started cracking down on in 2004). I'm also not sure why Canseco is getting killed over his credibility on this one, our esteemed sports columnist-writing and reporting community regularly repeats rumor and accusation re steroid use, often on the basis of hearsay, with mind-numbing regularity. In my mind, Canseco is no better or no worse regarding credibility on this matter.

[ctmason]

I think we all know that Big Mac's Secret Sauce (besids the thousand island dressing) was his use of Jay Kordich's Juiceman II Juice Extractor.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

His body finally gave out by 2000, whether it was due to advancing age, or the deleterious long-term effects of andro or anything else he was taking.

I think the fact that he was 37/38 had more to do with the lower number of games in 2000 and 01 than some long-term ailment. Not many players make a full season at 37.

Not sure why McGwire is considered untouchable--after all, he readily admitted to taking a chemical that contributes to muscle growth (andro), a substance banned by almost every sport (and which the FDA finally started cracking down on in 2004).

But it was not illegal nor banned from baseball. How can he be penalized for taking something not banned or illegal? Anyone could have taken Andro or creatine (and many did).

I'm also not sure why Canseco is getting killed over his credibility on this one, our esteemed sports columnist-writing and reporting community regularly repeats rumor and accusation re steroid use, often on the basis of hearsay, with mind-numbing regularity. In my mind, Canseco is no better or no worse regarding credibility on this matter.

Because you have to question Canseco's motives. He denied steroid use publically all the way through the 90s. Then he retires because he feels he is blackballed from the majors. He also desperately needs money and suddenly this "come clean" book comes out. It makes just as much sense that he would make some of this up as it does he is saying the truth. For all we know he did these actions with another teammate and subbed Mac's name in there to sell more books. Heck, he even implicates Clemens (whom he even admits he never witnessed using) and Bush. It's obvious he was trying to sell books. There have been four different A's players, LaRussa and Sandy Alderson that have said McGwire didn't do steroids. Weiss even worked out with McGwire for three seasons and said he never spent any time with Canseco outside of the game. Why should we believe Canseco over Weiss, Steinbeck, LaRussa and Alderson?