No Limit (Tournament) Hold'em betting rule?

AnalBumCover · 02-07-2005, 09:40 PM

Need some clarification guys. This is a general rule, which may differ from some of your own house rules.

Example: Blind levels are 50/100. UTG calls the big blind. Middle position calls. Late position raises all-in, 150 to go (note, this raise is not equal to the BB). Both blinds call the all-in. UTG wants to raise, say to 300, to isolate.

Can he?

AnalBumCover · 02-07-2005, 09:41 PM

dola.

We do have in place a rule that a raise must equal the last bet.

RPI-Fan · 02-07-2005, 09:44 PM

I've actually encountered a very similar situation, though in a NL cash game.

My poker-savvy friend and myself basically decided that the under-raise doesn't affect the minimum raise value... it remains at 100 (equal to the BB).

So I would definitely yes, the re-raise is definitely Ok.

cartman · 02-07-2005, 09:48 PM

not sure if I completely understand here. Was the all-in of the late position short of the big blind? If so, I don't think that the UTG can raise, since the action stops when BB declares a call. However, if the all-in was more than the big blind, then he could raise, since UTG would be the last to declare.

AnalBumCover · 02-07-2005, 09:49 PM

I always thought that an all-in bet, if it is not equal to the minimum raise value, is not considered a full raise.

By that assumption, UTG's last act was "call" with no full raise following. So he could not re-raise.

AnalBumCover · 02-07-2005, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cartman

not sure if I completely understand here. Was the all-in of the late position short of the big blind? If so, I don't think that the UTG can raise, since the action stops when BB declares a call. However, if the all-in was more than the big blind, then he could raise, since UTG would be the last to declare.

The LP all-in raise is 100+50.

digamma · 02-07-2005, 09:53 PM

I read an article on this recently. They quoted Eric Seidel as saying you can re-raise, if the all-in move is a raise that is more than half the minimum raise. If you play by those rules, the raise in your game should be allowed.

Edit: Upon your clarification, I'm not sure since the all in is exactly half of the minimum raise.

cartman · 02-07-2005, 09:55 PM

Ok, so the all in was more than the big blind, but less than a full "legal" raise?

If that's the case, I think that the betting is still open, because you have to make a fold or call decision, and because of that, raise should be an option as well. It was due to a lack of chips that the raise wasn't a full amount, but the intention to raise was clearly there, so a side pot is started with any raises that go above the all-in amount.

AnalBumCover · 02-07-2005, 10:14 PM

I just found this in our "official" home tournament rulebook.

Quote:

The minimum bet is the larger of the size of the big blind and the size of the last bet or raise during the current betting round.

Quote:

An all-in raise which is less than the minimum bet as defined above, does not qualify as a raise, ie. the last raiser, and anyone that called the raise, cannot re-reraise, they can only call or fold (unless someone who still had the right to raise re-raises).

Feel free to interpret as you see it.

ABC

RPI-Fan · 02-07-2005, 10:23 PM

According to those rules, seems like a clear-cut illegal re-raise.

Pumpy Tudors · 02-07-2005, 10:25 PM

UTG didn't raise the big blind, though. UTG called the big blind. He should still have the option to re-raise.

Glengoyne · 02-07-2005, 10:37 PM

I think ABC has the right of it. I remember the second part about an all-in raise of less than the minimum bet not counting as a "Raise" from Official rules lists before. I remember it clearly because I didn't really understand why that would be the case. The minimum bet/raise rule is a staple in most Home Games I play in. Though some houses do allow small raises so that players on a draw or sitting with "ify"can limit their potential/probable losses.

robbgmaier · 02-09-2005, 09:32 PM

for what it's worth, party poker and poker stars no limit tournies will not allow a reraise by an original raiser or caller of an original raise after an all-in raise that does not meet the legal raise requirement. So if it's 50 and 100 blinds, two calls and next player goes all in for 175 total, those original callers can't raise again unless someone in front of them makes it 200 or more total.

so what the guys above me just said

02-07-2005, 09:41 PM	#2
AnalBumCover College Starter Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: La Mirada, CA	dola. We do have in place a rule that a raise must equal the last bet. __________________ ABC's Game Giveaway list

02-07-2005, 09:44 PM	#3
RPI-Fan Pro Starter Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Troy, NY	I've actually encountered a very similar situation, though in a NL cash game. My poker-savvy friend and myself basically decided that the under-raise doesn't affect the minimum raise value... it remains at 100 (equal to the BB). So I would definitely yes, the re-raise is definitely Ok. __________________ Quis custodiets ipsos custodes?

02-07-2005, 09:48 PM	#4
cartman Death Herald Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Le stelle la notte sono grandi e luminose nel cuore profondo del Texas	not sure if I completely understand here. Was the all-in of the late position short of the big blind? If so, I don't think that the UTG can raise, since the action stops when BB declares a call. However, if the all-in was more than the big blind, then he could raise, since UTG would be the last to declare. __________________ Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint

02-07-2005, 09:49 PM	#5
AnalBumCover College Starter Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: La Mirada, CA	I always thought that an all-in bet, if it is not equal to the minimum raise value, is not considered a full raise. By that assumption, UTG's last act was "call" with no full raise following. So he could not re-raise. __________________ ABC's Game Giveaway list

02-07-2005, 09:53 PM	#7
digamma Torchbearer Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: On Lake Harriet	I read an article on this recently. They quoted Eric Seidel as saying you can re-raise, if the all-in move is a raise that is more than half the minimum raise. If you play by those rules, the raise in your game should be allowed. Edit: Upon your clarification, I'm not sure since the all in is exactly half of the minimum raise. Last edited by digamma : 02-07-2005 at 09:54 PM.

02-07-2005, 09:55 PM	#8
cartman Death Herald Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Le stelle la notte sono grandi e luminose nel cuore profondo del Texas	Ok, so the all in was more than the big blind, but less than a full "legal" raise? If that's the case, I think that the betting is still open, because you have to make a fold or call decision, and because of that, raise should be an option as well. It was due to a lack of chips that the raise wasn't a full amount, but the intention to raise was clearly there, so a side pot is started with any raises that go above the all-in amount. __________________ Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint

02-07-2005, 10:23 PM	#10
RPI-Fan Pro Starter Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Troy, NY	According to those rules, seems like a clear-cut illegal re-raise. __________________ Quis custodiets ipsos custodes?

02-07-2005, 10:25 PM	#11
Pumpy Tudors Bounty Hunter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Pittsburgh, PA	UTG didn't raise the big blind, though. UTG called the big blind. He should still have the option to re-raise. __________________ No, I am not Batman, and I will not repair your food processor.

02-07-2005, 10:37 PM	#12
Glengoyne Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Fresno, CA	I think ABC has the right of it. I remember the second part about an all-in raise of less than the minimum bet not counting as a "Raise" from Official rules lists before. I remember it clearly because I didn't really understand why that would be the case. The minimum bet/raise rule is a staple in most Home Games I play in. Though some houses do allow small raises so that players on a draw or sitting with "ify"can limit their potential/probable losses.

02-09-2005, 09:32 PM	#13
robbgmaier College Prospect Join Date: Oct 2001	for what it's worth, party poker and poker stars no limit tournies will not allow a reraise by an original raiser or caller of an original raise after an all-in raise that does not meet the legal raise requirement. So if it's 50 and 100 blinds, two calls and next player goes all in for 175 total, those original callers can't raise again unless someone in front of them makes it 200 or more total. so what the guys above me just said

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