Stereotype:race and tipping

[Fritz]

Here in Hampton Roads Virginia, black people have an awful reputation as poor tippers.

I am curious,
1) is this a widespread stereotype?
2) is there any good basis for this stereotype? If so, why do you think this is the case.
3) does the stereotype extend to any other racial/ethnic groups.

The question is in reaction to a conversation I overheard. While I understand that this topic might be inflammatory, I certainly do not mean for it to be.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Fritz

Here in Hampton Roads Virginia, black people have an awful reputation as poor tippers.

I am curious,
1) is this a widespread stereotype?
2) is there any good basis for this stereotype? If so, why do you think this is the case.
3) does the stereotype extend to any other racial/ethnic groups.

The question is in reaction to a conversation I overheard. While I understand that this topic might be inflammatory, I certainly do not mean for it to be.

Before I moved down here to Hampton Roads, I came from Northern Virginia. I had many friends that worked as servers through High School, College, etc... This stereotype is very much alive there as well...

From my discussions I've had, this stereotype is so widespread because.. if you ask those involved (I have never been a server)... "it's true"... anecdotally, there appears to be at least some evidence that African Americans are prone to tipping less... I have heard similar things about Hispanic guests also..

I'd be curious as to whether any studies have ever been done on this...

(I've definately heard this in Hampton Roads FWIW.. Including at a restaurant in Williamsburg that my g/f worked at)

[JeeberD]

Yes, yes it is widespread. And for the most part I have found the sterotype to be true in my ownpersonal experience. Of course, white trash and mexicans (not hispanics, but people from mexico who speak very little english, order tons of food, then tip 5%) are also bad tippers.

Of course, the stereotype isn't always true.

[rafini]

I don't really have a comment on the question, but I live in Va Beach, where are at?

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Yes, yes it is widespread. And for the most part I have found the sterotype to be true in my ownpersonal experience. Of course, white trash and mexicans (not hispanics, but people from mexico who speak very little english, order tons of food, then tip 5%) are also bad tippers.

Of course, the stereotype isn't always true.

And don't think this is just a white boys rantings. Our black servers feel the same way as well...

[QuikSand]

I agree it's a widespread stereotype, one that (like many) probably tends to confuse elements of race and class.

[Fritz]

rafini - Newport News

---

My only direct exposure to this stereotype came while i managed a bar. I ran a $.01 draft night, and the kids from Hampton Univ. found out about it and started to drive up. For those who may not know, Hampton is is an expensive private Black University.

The kids had a great time, but didn't tip well at all. So poorly I ended up cancelling the night. I wasn't selling food, was losing money on beer, and my staff wasn't making any money either.

The college students from other nearby places were not great tippers either. So I don't think my experience lends much weight in either direction.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I agree it's a widespread stereotype, one that (like many) probably tends to confuse elements of race and class.

Yup. Add that to the fact that, as a culture, we can be a bit more prone to living beyond our means, and that's where it really kicks in.

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by Fritz

Here in Hampton Roads Virginia, black people have an awful reputation as poor tippers.

I am curious,
1) is this a widespread stereotype?
2) is there any good basis for this stereotype? If so, why do you think this is the case.
3) does the stereotype extend to any other racial/ethnic groups.

The question is in reaction to a conversation I overheard. While I understand that this topic might be inflammatory, I certainly do not mean for it to be.

1) I can confirm that it is a very wide stereotype throughout the resturant industry, from my experience.
2) In my person experience, the stereotype is not founded.
3) This stereotype does extend to other racial groups, but I believe the root cause is actually financial rather than racial.


In my own table waiting days, I would always be the guy who would step up to take a table that fit the stereotype. Sometimes I was burned, but a few times it really paid off. In my experience, you never really know how someone is going to tip, so I would *TRY* to treat everyone the same way.

[cuervo72]

sachmo brings up an interesting point - I believe that many servers size up their patrons, and adjust their service according to their stereotypes.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I agree it's a widespread stereotype, one that (like many) probably tends to confuse elements of race and class.

I might also throw age in there as well.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by digamma

I might also throw age in there as well.

Yep...I think more mature folks will on the whole receive better service than younger ones because the servers feel they will tip better.

[Fritz]

so far I am impressed that this thread has gone 12 deep without any whackos pulling it apart. bravo

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I agree it's a widespread stereotype, one that (like many) probably tends to confuse elements of race and class.

That was my first thought as well. You're typically going to get a smaller tip from people who can't afford to tip as well as others. I'd be more interested to hear even anecdotal evidence about whether seemingly "well off" blacks/ hispanics, etc., still tip less than others.

I know from my own personal experience, it wasn't until I was making good money that I started tipping 20% minimum. I would generally go with 10-15%, and occasionally, I admit, go below that depending on what was in the bank account that week. But that was during school or right after I got out.

[Arles]

College kids stink as tippers, regardless of race. But I think that Quik's argument on financial class is a good one. I've done limited work for bars/restaurants (and have had numerous friends that have been more involved), but the general theme is that people in the middle to upper middle class tend to be the best tippers on average - regardless of other factors. When a friend of mine used to work at a restaurant outside the university area, he said the best tippers were guys from Raytheon that came down for lunches (no real difference between white, black and hispanic in that group). They were better than the wealthier professors and high-end "celebrities" on average.

His hypothesis was that many of them probably worked through college at some kind of service job and were more appreciative of his efforts because they could relate.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Fritz

I ran a $.01 draft night ... The kids had a great time, but didn't tip well at all.

On penny draft night, I always make it a point to tip 100%, rules of thumb be damned. I drink five beers, I'll just leave the whole dime and won't even ask for change, I don't care.

I do see your point

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by digamma

I actually think it works on both ends. I think there is a stereotype that the elderly aren't particularly good tippers, because they are used to tipping 10% or whatever was acceptable 25 years ago and haven't adjusted their habits.

Bingo. The elderly do tend to tip less, just like high school kids. College kids aren't terrible, but those high school kids drive me nuts...

[Blackadar]

From my experiences, it's much more class than race. I just don't think some people can calculate 15%.

*EXCEPT*

*STEREOTYPE ALERT*

A group of professional, black women - usually on lunch. They're overall not great tippers anway, but for whatever reason, they are generally AWFUL tippers to white women. They'll tip to any other groups, but not white girls. I've seen it many, many times.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Yep...I think more mature folks will on the whole receive better service than younger ones because the servers feel they will tip better.

I actually think it works on both ends. I think there is a stereotype that the elderly aren't particularly good tippers, because they are used to tipping 10% or whatever was acceptable 25 years ago and haven't adjusted their habits.

[Fritz]

The theories about clas sand tipping are interesting.


If I read this article < http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl.../analysis.html > correctly, the "black middle class" is the largest economic segment of their population. (which I was not expecting).

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by digamma

I actually think it works on both ends. I think there is a stereotype that the elderly aren't particularly good tippers, because they are used to tipping 10% or whatever was acceptable 25 years ago and haven't adjusted their habits.

Ok, I'll accept this. But I also agree with the stereotype that Arles pointed out, which annoyed my wife and I post-college and pre-kids.

Now...what I want to know is why and how has the definition of what is "acceptable" for a tip evolved? Service then should be roughly equivalent to service now, yes? How did we go from 10%, to 15%, to 18%, and now close to 20%?

[QuikSand]

From the NPR link:

- - -
The study found that 63 percent of blacks and 30 percent of whites didn't understand that the standard restaurant tip in the United States is 15 to 20 percent. The difference between how blacks and whites view tipping has serious ramifications for restaurants, including lawsuits and lost profits, Williams reports.
- - -

Once agaqin... I still think there is a substantial class element here, that goes beyond race. But the stat is pretty interesting, taken at face value.

[QuikSand]

fucking time stamp bug

[flere-imsaho]

NPR did a story on this a while ago, and cited a study that has some facts concerning the issue. I don't think it's the final word, but it's interesting fodder. Here's the link.

[Fritz]

from a link off that PBS site

"All Things Considered, November 10, 1999 · Robert speaks with Charles Thompson, an African American man that has accused the Miami restaurant "Thai Toni" of unfairly adding gratuity to his check because of his race. Thompson and his wife Theresa White, an African American couple from Miami, Florida dined October 23 at "Thai Toni." Thompson says when they received their check, he found that the gratuity had already been added. When he checked with a white couple sitting nearby, he noticed that the same had not been done to their check. He complained to the owner, Hiromi "Toni" Takarada, who responded that he did that because "blacks don't tip well." The state of Florida is now suing "Thai Toni" for deceptive and unfair trade practices. "

[digamma]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Ok, I'll accept this. But I also agree with the stereotype that Arles pointed out, which annoyed my wife and I post-college and pre-kids.

Oh, I certainly agree it exists on the younger end as well.

[QuikSand]

Incidentally, here is the study referenced in the NPR bit. In case you'd rather not have your news filtered through Juan Williams.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

From my experiences, it's much more class than race. I just don't think some people can calculate 15%.

*EXCEPT*

*STEREOTYPE ALERT*

A group of professional, black women - usually on lunch. They're overall not great tippers anway, but for whatever reason, they are generally AWFUL tippers to white women. They'll tip to any other groups, but not white girls. I've seen it many, many times.

Yeah, that was something my buddy Jesse said as well. There was once instance where a group of black and hispanic women use to come in for lunch. If he waited their tables he would get a good tip. If a friend of his (pretty white girl) waited on them, she often didn't get that much.

We had a discussion about this a few years back and I remember him saying how frustrating it was to tell the good tippers for non-regulars. There would guys dressed poorly that looked like they could barely afford their meal but would give him a 30% tip (he was a bartender) for the conversation. There were also wealthy guys from downtown rolling up in BMers that would barely tip 10%.

I have to think that personal experience matters. I wan't a great tipper in college, but I dated a waitress (before Farrah ) and saw the crap she dealt with. Ever since then, I've gone out of my way to reward good service and be fair overall. I also have some friends (same financial class) that bitch and moan about a 15% tip and routinely slide in 5-10% when they think people aren't looking.

[Joe]

whats a tip?

[KWhit]

The stereotype is alive and well down here in GA, too. From my limited experience, it seems to be true.

I worked in a high-end restaurant. Theoretically, everyone who came into the place should have been upper-upper-middle class or higher. However, it seemed that black people tended to tip me less. Maybe they just tip white servers less??? And maybe white patrons tip black servers less??? Not sure. Europeans, however, were the worst.

[Fritz]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Incidentally, here is the study referenced in the NPR bit. In case you'd rather not have your news filtered through Juan Williams.

thanks, Quik.

[sooner333]

You mean 20% is normal now, I was thought 15% was the status quo. And I will agree that college kids are bad tippers, I'm not that bad, but I mean, If I'm sitting down to a 7 dollar meal, I'll leave a buck. I guess that's 15%, but still, it's just a dollar. Also, what would be an appropriate tip on ridiculously low price bar night (whether that be penny or open bar)?

[wade moore]

FWIW, I feel this is tied more to socio-economic class than race as well...

The overall thought I have is one that most of the good server's I have known have gone by - If you give good service to everyone, you're going to get more tips in general...

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Fritz

rafini - Newport News

Williamsburg

[Fritz]

Originally Posted by sooner333

Also, what would be an appropriate tip on ridiculously low price bar night (whether that be penny or open bar)?

when using a coupon or getting a discount, you should generally tip on the undiscounted value.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by sooner333

You mean 20% is normal now, I was thought 15% was the status quo. And I will agree that college kids are bad tippers, I'm not that bad, but I mean, If I'm sitting down to a 7 dollar meal, I'll leave a buck. I guess that's 15%, but still, it's just a dollar. Also, what would be an appropriate tip on ridiculously low price bar night (whether that be penny or open bar)?

I have always used the "cab fare" rule of thumb. For ordinary service on a small bill (under ten bucks) I tip a dollar plus the breakage. If my bill for a cup or coffee and a danish was only $2.40, I will leave a $1.60 tip.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by KWhit

The stereotype is alive and well down here in GA, too. From my limited experience, it seems to be true.

I worked in a high-end restaurant. Theoretically, everyone who came into the place should have been upper-upper-middle class or higher. However, it seemed that black people tended to tip me less. Maybe they just tip white servers less??? And maybe white patrons tip black servers less??? Not sure. Europeans, however, were the worst.

For ease of calculation, I just do 20% of the check, then round the entire bill up or down to the nearest whole number (makes my checkbook entries easier). If service was better or poorer than average, than I would adjust to the nearest higher or lower dollar or half-dollar.

[Draft Dodger]

can't really comment on the race thing, as there are no minorities in NH. I can tell you that my mother is a bad tipper, but she's poor, so I think that might have something to do with it.

I remember when I was younger, I went to lunch with a friend and his mom - his mother put our waitress through the wringer and, I felt she did a good job coming through. I was MORTIFIED to see her calculate the tip at the end - if I remember she figured 10% exactly (as in, to the penny), before tax, of course, and I think she had also taken off money for her soup or drink that she didn't like...and left the tip all in change. after she left, I had to sneak a couple of bucks onto the table...I was thoroughly embarrassed. I have no qualms about leaving a bad tip if the service sucks, but really get annoyed with people who stiff good service.

[Huckleberry]

It's insane that the standard tip percentage can even theoretically go up. WTF? How does that make sense?

More importantly, why is it a percentage? Is it really more difficult to bring me a $25 plate than it is to bring me a $10 plate?

Dumb.

And for the record I tip according to what they deserve. I generally tip 15-20%. Routinely go as high as 40% for great service. If you suck, you will get a smaller tip than if you're good. Being nice to my kids, who are well-behaved, gets you a bump. Never noticing my water is empty gets you a deduction.

If you're rude and/or just awful with your service, you will get a $1 tip. I don't want you thinking I just forgot the tip.

[Fritz]

Most important, blacks were about half as likely as whites to say that the customary restaurant tip in the United States is 15 to 20 percent of the bill (37.4 percent for blacks, and 71.2 percent for whites).

15-20%, bucko.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Incidentally, here is the study referenced in the NPR bit. In case you'd rather not have your news filtered through Juan Williams.

Interesting study. It's an eye opener.

My whole take on the "conclusions" of the study is this...

LEARN THE F**KING NORMS OF THE COUNTRY!

If *in general* blacks don't tip, I wouldn't want to serve them. It ain't racism, it's a fact. If guys in blue shirts and chinos didn't generally tip, I wouldn't want to serve them either.

[wade moore]

http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/for...hlight=tipping sheds some light on the European thing if I remember - in many European countries apparently they do not use the same model of tipping that we use...

[digamma]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Incidentally, here is the study referenced in the NPR bit. In case you'd rather not have your news filtered through Juan Williams.

Seems to throw away the class comparison with a single sentence...that the results are "at least marginally significant" after controlling for age, sex, education, income, etc.

The learned behavior of tipping the study focuses on also would seem to be correlated to class--the piece notes that tipping disparity diminishes with increased dining frequency--but the study doesn't explore this relationship.

[Draft Dodger]

I'd also like to say that while I'm a good tipper, I don't like the fact that we do tip. I feel it's really less about rewarding good service and become a way for us to subsidize restaurant's payroll expenses. If I really think about it, I get a little annoyed that a server is paid almost nothing by the restaurant - all that responsibility is on the customer. Wish it wasn't that way, and I wonder, with all these big "neighborhood" chains if someday, someone isn't going to come up with a no-tipping gimmick...

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

It's insane that the standard tip percentage can even theoretically go up. WTF? How does that make sense?

More importantly, why is it a percentage? Is it really more difficult to bring me a $25 plate than it is to bring me a $10 plate?

Dumb.

Not dumb. You didn't think this over very well.

If you're paying $25 a plate, you usually have a greater expectation of good service. To accommodate that, the waitstaff will have less assigned tables so they can pay more attention to each table. Go to a place where it's $50-$75 a plate and your staff may have as many as 3 tables, or a group of 3 staff assigned to 3 tables, etc.

Go to a 5 star restaurant and you'll see there may be more staff than tables!

In addition, the time it takes to eat in a high-dollar restaurant is significantly higher than in a low dollar one. Eating at $50 a plate is an "event" and takes time, not an eat-and-run like at TGIFridays. So you have less patron turnover.

So if you had a "flat" dollar amount, your servers would actually make *considerably* less money in a high dollar restaurant - due to overall number of tables and patron turnover - than in a lower, large-volume restaurant.

Therefore, it's a %.

[Huckleberry]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Not dumb. You didn't think this over very well.

If you're paying $25 a plate, you usually have a greater expectation of good service.

No I don't. I expect good service everywhere. 5-star restaurant, Whataburger, wherever.

Originally Posted by Blackadar

To accommodate that, the waitstaff will have less assigned tables so they can pay more attention to each table. Go to a place where it's $50-$75 a plate and your staff may have as many as 3 tables, or a group of 3 staff assigned to 3 tables, etc.

Go to a 5 star restaurant and you'll see there may be more staff than tables!

You're convincing me I'm right. Now it turns out that not only are the plates more expensive, but the waitstaff's job is easier at fancier restaurants. Why should I be tipping them more again? I can see tipping the same amount. Less work but divided among more people.

Originally Posted by Blackadar

In addition, the time it takes to eat in a high-dollar restaurant is significantly higher than in a low dollar one. Eating at $50 a plate is an "event" and takes time, not an eat-and-run like at TGIFridays. So you have less patron turnover.

Right, and I already paid for the event. Talk to your employer about your wage.

Originally Posted by Blackadar

So if you had a "flat" dollar amount, your servers would actually make *considerably* less money in a high dollar restaurant - due to overall number of tables and patron turnover - than in a lower, large-volume restaurant.

Therefore, it's a %.

You forgot the other option. Based on quality of service and time served. If I'm at a table longer I will certainly be willing to tip more.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Fritz

The theories about clas sand tipping are interesting.


If I read this article < http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl.../analysis.html > correctly, the "black middle class" is the largest economic segment of their population. (which I was not expecting).

Well, if you define middle class as $25,000-$50,000 household income, yeah. It would have *never* occurred to me to define "middle class" in that manner. I would have thought something more along the lines of $45K to $80K.

[hhiipp]

So if you had a "flat" dollar amount, your servers would actually make *considerably* less money in a high dollar restaurant - due to overall number of tables and patron turnover - than in a lower, large-volume restaurant.

So why is it our duty to supplement their income, if they could make more money at a Bob Evans than at a $50-$75 why is it our fault they don't choose to work for Bob Evans?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by KWhit

The stereotype is alive and well down here in GA, too. From my limited experience, it seems to be true.

I worked in a high-end restaurant. Theoretically, everyone who came into the place should have been upper-upper-middle class or higher.

This goes back to my living-beyond-our-means comment about black cutlutre, I would think. It is highly likely that you had black customers who couldn't really afford to be there in the first place.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

1) I can confirm that it is a very wide stereotype throughout the resturant industry, from my experience.
2) In my person experience, the stereotype is not founded.
3) This stereotype does extend to other racial groups, but I believe the root cause is actually financial rather than racial.


In my own table waiting days, I would always be the guy who would step up to take a table that fit the stereotype. Sometimes I was burned, but a few times it really paid off. In my experience, you never really know how someone is going to tip, so I would *TRY* to treat everyone the same way.

I think 3 is key. When I was a poor college student, I was a horrible tipper. When I was a poor intern, I was a horrible tipper. Now that I'm doing better financially, I'm a very good tipper. I think the biggest driving force in general is socioeconomic class. Of course, there are exceptions of people in higher socioeconomic classes still tipping badly (I'll never forget when I was a valet and Charles Barkley stiffed me on a tip!) and people in lower socioeconomic classes tipping well.