are pro football sims too complicated

waltwal · 03-05-2005, 07:12 PM

i remember when fof first came out 1999( i think). i really enjoyed playing it altho it did have some limitations. but as editions have progressed i have found the game very tedious to play. when i read about some guy who has a doctorate in quantum math being hired by some pro team to handle their salary cap i begin to understand why i don't enoy either fof or tpf. i like the idea of a gm game that sims into the future but i simply do not understand the workings of the salary cap and it is too complicated to take the time to learn.

i really enjoy the workings of pro baseball however. i primarily play online ootp.i find that the financial workings of baseball add to the game and do not make it a mathematical mightmare. i wonder if it is possible to put out a pro football sim that would have a financial structure like baseball. that is you have say an 85 million salary cap. you have players under contract but there is no bonus stucture that you have to deal with. you still are limited by your finances on hand and the cap but you don't have to figure out all the workings of the salary cap. i think it would add up to more trading and a game that would allow you to focus on all the various aspects of being a gm except having to deal with the complex issues of the actual football salary cap.

now i am sure there are many players that enjoy fof as it is presently setup and really want to delve into the inner workings of the cap which is why it would make sense to produce a game that would have both a simpler as well as the more complex salary structure of actual nfl football.

i for one prefer a game that would go lighter on the salary cap workings and much heavier on the actual coaching of the game but still retain the workings of a gm game. i just don't want to feel like i am taking a test in doctoral math analysis everytime i play the game.

Chubby · 03-05-2005, 07:40 PM

sounds like you should be playing madden as a sim.

The NFL IS about the cap, much more so than other sports.

Zippo · 03-05-2005, 07:45 PM

I agree and I think all text sim games should have a more simple mode for newbies similar to what puresim did with the 2004 game.

sovereignstar · 03-05-2005, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltwal

are pro football sims too complicated

No, no they aren't. This is the first time I've heard this one and I really hope that Jim would use his time on more important things than a customizable financial system.

cthomer5000 · 03-05-2005, 08:21 PM

gstelmack · 03-05-2005, 08:54 PM

I don't understand what's so hard about the cap. FOF has a simplified version of the NFL cap (no RFAs, no roster bonuses, no injury settlements, etc). Your cap hit is the salary each year, plus a prorated bonus (bonus divided by number of years). Cap goes up a bit each year. Releasing a player accelerates his bonus penalty.

And yes, playing the cap IS much of the game.

BrianD · 03-05-2005, 08:58 PM

It really isn't that complicated to learn. I didn't understand much about the salary caps before I started playing FOF, but I learned fairly quickly while playing.

Start out by just worrying about the current season. At the start of each season, get the best talent you can while staying under the cap. After you do that for a few seasons, you'll get a feel for planning multi-year contracts and eventually you will feel pretty comfortable with the financial system.

It will probably take a little while, and you may not have much success right away, but the basic workings of the financial systems really aren't that hard. Mastering them takes a bit more work, but that is where the fun comes in.

jamesUMD · 03-05-2005, 09:19 PM

no comment whatsoever

Buccaneer · 03-05-2005, 09:31 PM

Quote:

lighter on the salary cap workings and much heavier on the actual coaching of the game

I strongly prefer just the opposite.

Young Drachma · 03-05-2005, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

I strongly prefer just the opposite.

Same here. I never coach my games and truly prefer the GM/Team President role to that of the on-the-field coach.

Suicane75 · 03-05-2005, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

I strongly prefer just the opposite.

Have you ever seen some of the decisions made in the game? This is an area that FOF is still sorely lacking in, it's almost horrid.

sovereignstar · 03-05-2005, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Have you ever seen some of the decisions made in the game? This is an area that FOF is still sorely lacking in, it's almost horrid.

Settle down, Snowball, or I'll go get the taser.

Cap Ologist · 03-05-2005, 09:52 PM

I'd be out of a job if they did away with the cap.

Suicane75 · 03-05-2005, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

Settle down, Snowball, or I'll go get the taser.

It's your fault.

JimboJ · 03-05-2005, 10:05 PM

I prefer the in-game coaching elements too. I'd like to see an option where you could just play the role of head coach, and let the CPU handle the GM functions. I still want a career sim - I just don't want to have to make all the decisions myself.

For example, I (as a coach) would set up a profile of how much I value each position. Suppose I decide I need a new middle linebacker. I ask my GM how much we can afford for that position, and he gives me a salary amount that will fit within the cap and a list of players available at the amount, based on the current market. Then I make the final decision on which player to sign, or maybe to wait and draft a player instead. The GM would then work out the contract details.

Buccaneer · 03-05-2005, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Have you ever seen some of the decisions made in the game? This is an area that FOF is still sorely lacking in, it's almost horrid.

Yes I have. The financial and roster management decisions I have seen by some owners in IHOF have been nothing short of brilliant.

SunDancer · 03-05-2005, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltwal

i remember when fof first came out 1999( i think). i really enjoyed playing it altho it did have some limitations. but as editions have progressed i have found the game very tedious to play. when i read about some guy who has a doctorate in quantum math being hired by some pro team to handle their salary cap i begin to understand why i don't enoy either fof or tpf. i like the idea of a gm game that sims into the future but i simply do not understand the workings of the salary cap and it is too complicated to take the time to learn.

i really enjoy the workings of pro baseball however. i primarily play online ootp.i find that the financial workings of baseball add to the game and do not make it a mathematical mightmare. i wonder if it is possible to put out a pro football sim that would have a financial structure like baseball. that is you have say an 85 million salary cap. you have players under contract but there is no bonus stucture that you have to deal with. you still are limited by your finances on hand and the cap but you don't have to figure out all the workings of the salary cap. i think it would add up to more trading and a game that would allow you to focus on all the various aspects of being a gm except having to deal with the complex issues of the actual football salary cap.

now i am sure there are many players that enjoy fof as it is presently setup and really want to delve into the inner workings of the cap which is why it would make sense to produce a game that would have both a simpler as well as the more complex salary structure of actual nfl football.

i for one prefer a game that would go lighter on the salary cap workings and much heavier on the actual coaching of the game but still retain the workings of a gm game. i just don't want to feel like i am taking a test in doctoral math analysis everytime i play the game.

I felt the same way about getting the first CM game, with the whole player movement (both financially and the legalities-nationalities, work permits), but I've managed to learn about (and in my view, it's alot tougher to learn then the NFL Cap). That game is just awesome now, I love to mirco-manage (isn't that the whole point of the text sim market).

jbmagic · 03-06-2005, 01:31 AM

i mess up the first time i got to the offseason in FOF 5.1c.

i resign a lot of my players and now i am so close to next year salary cap, it saying i need so much money under salary cap for the amatuer draft.

i didnt know there was a rule you need to be under a certain amount for the salary cap going into the amatuer draft.

i guess its a learning experience so far.

but still loving FOF. Awesome game

MIJB#19 · 03-06-2005, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Yes I have. The financial and roster management decisions I have seen by some owners in IHOF have been nothing short of brilliant.

Translation:
"Norm Rizzo, why the [PEEP] did you have to come back for another season!?"

Tekneek · 03-06-2005, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

This is the first time I've heard this one and I really hope that Jim would use his time on more important things than a customizable financial system.

Personally, I would like the ability to turn the salary cap off and go back to the pre-salary cap way of things. I would enjoy it, but I would not say it should be a priority.

jamesUMD · 03-06-2005, 08:45 AM

I personally play FOF because it's the closest simulation that there is when it comes to mirroring the NFL. You can coach and watch every play you want to in Madden and then let the cpu sign players for you. That's not what this game has ever been about.

I personally would not mind if there was no ability to coach at all. I think that it's just one more thing that Jim has to put a ton of hours into, which detracts from other features that I would like to see.

waltwal · 03-06-2005, 11:24 AM

well madden is definitely not the answer for me. i want to be a gm but i also want to be a coach and plan out the game so to me it seems that a game or more games should not always give you the same format. if putting time into customizing a game would hurt the overall development of the game that might be a bad thing. but there are other people capable and possibly willing to put out a pro football game (i am fairly sure we will see a new tpf game). i would just like to see a game that simplifies the salary cap structure to more like what baseball has and then put added emphasis on the coaching side of the game.

bear in mind that i have read enough posts in the past to know that many want a total gm experience based on real pro foootball and that is great but for some this can be a tedious experience.

i strongly feel that THE pro football sim game still does not exist. that goes for college football as well.

Tekneek · 03-06-2005, 11:36 AM

Baseball does not have a salary cap, so by saying you want a salary cap structure like baseball you mean football without a salary cap...? Am I following this correctly?

Anthony · 03-06-2005, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Same here. I never coach my games and truly prefer the GM/Team President role to that of the on-the-field coach.

ditto.

Airhog · 03-06-2005, 12:53 PM

I think this guy in on the right track. Who says that this Genre is only big enough for one type of Sim? If enough people want a game like that, it will eventually happen.

KWhit · 03-06-2005, 12:57 PM

While I somewhat agree with you Airhog, I don't think the text sim community is large enough to support too many games. I wish it was, but it seems to me that there aren't very many of us.

waltwal · 03-06-2005, 03:07 PM

that is correct-baseball does not have a salary cap. ootp allows the player to set up a simple salary cap that includes the total amount under contract in a given year but does not get involved in bonus money. i would prefer to play under that method and get more involved in coaching

EagleFan · 03-06-2005, 04:34 PM

How does bonus money suddenly turn cap management into rocket science? On the contract negotiation screen it shows you just how much cap hit there is each year inbcluding the bonus.

Not to be mean, but I get this picture of what seems to be most high school kids anymore working retail and needing to see what the cash register says as the only way to know how much change to give back. "That'll be 2.76" "Why did you give me 3.01?" "It's only 2.76."

waltwal · 03-06-2005, 11:10 PM

i am hardly a high school kid, coached football for 27 years and have a masters degree. can u just accept the fact that i want a simple way of dealing with contracts so that a future game can concentrate more on the coaching aspect of the game.

as i said in an earlier post i have no problem with anyone wanting the more complex system of dealing with finances. i just would like to see a game that gives us the option of a simpler system. while you may be right that the contract situation in fof is simpler than i make it out to be i still liked the older game that had a simpler system.

i think the issue for me may be that i prefer a game that would be really deep on the coaching side and a little lighter on the gm side.

jamesUMD · 03-07-2005, 06:40 AM

Quote:

"That'll be 2.76" "Why did you give me 3.01?" "It's only 2.76."

Classic!

Cap Ologist · 03-07-2005, 06:44 AM

I doubt that the game will ever transition to one based more around coaching. It is called Front Office Football, not Coaching Staff Football.

CraigSca · 03-07-2005, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltwal

i am hardly a high school kid, coached football for 27 years and have a masters degree. can u just accept the fact that i want a simple way of dealing with contracts so that a future game can concentrate more on the coaching aspect of the game.

as i said in an earlier post i have no problem with anyone wanting the more complex system of dealing with finances. i just would like to see a game that gives us the option of a simpler system. while you may be right that the contract situation in fof is simpler than i make it out to be i still liked the older game that had a simpler system.

i think the issue for me may be that i prefer a game that would be really deep on the coaching side and a little lighter on the gm side.

It's my guess that people are taking exception to your initial post. To want less of the finance-side and more of the coaching-side is fine. However, to call working with the salary cap in FOF "something that requires a test in doctoral math analysis" is ridiculous. Working with the cap is pretty cut and dried in the game.

That being said, I'll restate that I have no problem with you wanting to deal less with the financial aspects and more with the in-game. I really doubt anyone's going to find the perfect sim out there, no matter what the genre. If you want it done the way you want it, you may have to write it yourself

.

mhass · 03-07-2005, 08:21 AM

waltwal also has the option of signing players without bonuses. You may night sign as many, but there's nothing that says you HAVE to use signing bonuses in FOF.

Bee · 03-07-2005, 09:32 AM

Like many others that have already replied, I prefer the salary cap issues, etc to doing any coaching in the game. There are games out there that concentrate more on coaching I believe (isn't there something called Action PC Football or something like that where coaching and play design is much more the focus of the game? And isn't there something called MicroLeague Football that also concentrates and play design and coaching? I don't really keep up with the coaching games since that's not where my interest lies).

FOF concentrates (not surprisingly) on the front office decision making in football not the coaching aspects of football. I'd be surprised and disappointed if that were to change in future versions.

HomerJSimpson · 03-07-2005, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bee

Like many others that have already replied, I prefer the salary cap issues, etc to doing any coaching in the game. There are games out there that concentrate more on coaching I believe (isn't there something called Action PC Football or something like that where coaching and play design is much more the focus of the game? And isn't there something called MicroLeague Football that also concentrates and play design and coaching? I don't really keep up with the coaching games since that's not where my interest lies).

FOF concentrates (not surprisingly) on the front office decision making in football not the coaching aspects of football. I'd be surprised and disappointed if that were to change in future versions.

Neither of those games are career sims, nor do they have any financials at all. I would love a game more coach-oriented and took the GM stuff out of the players hands, but alas there just will never be enough call for that.

HomerJSimpson · 03-07-2005, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wade moore

I don't understand why Madden in coach only mode does not fulfill these desires?

It never works very well. I have fought with it a good bit.

wade moore · 03-07-2005, 11:04 AM

I don't understand why Madden in coach only mode does not fulfill these desires?

Bee · 03-07-2005, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wade moore

I don't understand why Madden in coach only mode does not fulfill these desires?

Can you design plays in Madden? If so, that would seem to be a good option. Again, it's another game that really doesn't interest me much so I don't know much about it.

Warhammer · 03-07-2005, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

Settle down, Snowball, or I'll go get the taser.

Why do you call him Snowball?

Chubby · 03-07-2005, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bee

Can you design plays in Madden? If so, that would seem to be a good option. Again, it's another game that really doesn't interest me much so I don't know much about it.

Sorta. There's preset routes that you use so it's not like making plays frmo scratch but pretty close.

03-05-2005, 08:54 PM	#6
gstelmack Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Cary, NC	I don't understand what's so hard about the cap. FOF has a simplified version of the NFL cap (no RFAs, no roster bonuses, no injury settlements, etc). Your cap hit is the salary each year, plus a prorated bonus (bonus divided by number of years). Cap goes up a bit each year. Releasing a player accelerates his bonus penalty. And yes, playing the cap IS much of the game. __________________ -- Greg -- Author of various FOF utilities

03-05-2005, 09:19 PM	#8
jamesUMD High School JV Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Baltimore, MD	no comment whatsoever __________________ HailtotheRedskins!

03-05-2005, 10:05 PM	#15
JimboJ High School Varsity Join Date: Aug 2003	I prefer the in-game coaching elements too. I'd like to see an option where you could just play the role of head coach, and let the CPU handle the GM functions. I still want a career sim - I just don't want to have to make all the decisions myself. For example, I (as a coach) would set up a profile of how much I value each position. Suppose I decide I need a new middle linebacker. I ask my GM how much we can afford for that position, and he gives me a salary amount that will fit within the cap and a list of players available at the amount, based on the current market. Then I make the final decision on which player to sign, or maybe to wait and draft a player instead. The GM would then work out the contract details. Last edited by JimboJ : 03-05-2005 at 10:09 PM.

03-06-2005, 08:45 AM	#21
jamesUMD High School JV Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Baltimore, MD	I personally play FOF because it's the closest simulation that there is when it comes to mirroring the NFL. You can coach and watch every play you want to in Madden and then let the cpu sign players for you. That's not what this game has ever been about. I personally would not mind if there was no ability to coach at all. I think that it's just one more thing that Jim has to put a ton of hours into, which detracts from other features that I would like to see. __________________ HailtotheRedskins!

03-06-2005, 11:24 AM	#22
waltwal H.S. Freshman Team Join Date: Jan 2002	reply well madden is definitely not the answer for me. i want to be a gm but i also want to be a coach and plan out the game so to me it seems that a game or more games should not always give you the same format. if putting time into customizing a game would hurt the overall development of the game that might be a bad thing. but there are other people capable and possibly willing to put out a pro football game (i am fairly sure we will see a new tpf game). i would just like to see a game that simplifies the salary cap structure to more like what baseball has and then put added emphasis on the coaching side of the game. bear in mind that i have read enough posts in the past to know that many want a total gm experience based on real pro foootball and that is great but for some this can be a tedious experience. i strongly feel that THE pro football sim game still does not exist. that goes for college football as well.

03-05-2005, 07:40 PM	#2
Chubby Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Syracuse, NY	sounds like you should be playing madden as a sim. The NFL IS about the cap, much more so than other sports.

03-05-2005, 07:45 PM	#3
Zippo High School JV Join Date: Jan 2004	I agree and I think all text sim games should have a more simple mode for newbies similar to what puresim did with the 2004 game.

03-05-2005, 08:58 PM	#7
BrianD Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Appleton, WI	It really isn't that complicated to learn. I didn't understand much about the salary caps before I started playing FOF, but I learned fairly quickly while playing. Start out by just worrying about the current season. At the start of each season, get the best talent you can while staying under the cap. After you do that for a few seasons, you'll get a feel for planning multi-year contracts and eventually you will feel pretty comfortable with the financial system. It will probably take a little while, and you may not have much success right away, but the basic workings of the financial systems really aren't that hard. Mastering them takes a bit more work, but that is where the fun comes in.

03-05-2005, 09:52 PM	#13
Cap Ologist College Prospect Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Flower Mound, TX	I'd be out of a job if they did away with the cap.

03-06-2005, 01:31 AM	#18
jbmagic Pro Starter Join Date: Apr 2004	i mess up the first time i got to the offseason in FOF 5.1c. i resign a lot of my players and now i am so close to next year salary cap, it saying i need so much money under salary cap for the amatuer draft. i didnt know there was a rule you need to be under a certain amount for the salary cap going into the amatuer draft. i guess its a learning experience so far. but still loving FOF. Awesome game

03-06-2005, 11:36 AM	#23
Tekneek Pro Rookie Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: USA	Baseball does not have a salary cap, so by saying you want a salary cap structure like baseball you mean football without a salary cap...? Am I following this correctly?

03-06-2005, 12:53 PM	#25
Airhog Captain Obvious Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Norman, Oklahoma	I think this guy in on the right track. Who says that this Genre is only big enough for one type of Sim? If enough people want a game like that, it will eventually happen. __________________ Thread Killer extraordinaire Yay! its football season once again!

03-06-2005, 12:57 PM	#26
KWhit Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Conyers GA	While I somewhat agree with you Airhog, I don't think the text sim community is large enough to support too many games. I wish it was, but it seems to me that there aren't very many of us.

03-06-2005, 03:07 PM	#27
waltwal H.S. Freshman Team Join Date: Jan 2002	reply that is correct-baseball does not have a salary cap. ootp allows the player to set up a simple salary cap that includes the total amount under contract in a given year but does not get involved in bonus money. i would prefer to play under that method and get more involved in coaching

03-06-2005, 04:34 PM	#28
EagleFan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Mays Landing, NJ USA	How does bonus money suddenly turn cap management into rocket science? On the contract negotiation screen it shows you just how much cap hit there is each year inbcluding the bonus. Not to be mean, but I get this picture of what seems to be most high school kids anymore working retail and needing to see what the cash register says as the only way to know how much change to give back. "That'll be 2.76" "Why did you give me 3.01?" "It's only 2.76."

03-06-2005, 11:10 PM	#29
waltwal H.S. Freshman Team Join Date: Jan 2002	i am hardly a high school kid, coached football for 27 years and have a masters degree. can u just accept the fact that i want a simple way of dealing with contracts so that a future game can concentrate more on the coaching aspect of the game. as i said in an earlier post i have no problem with anyone wanting the more complex system of dealing with finances. i just would like to see a game that gives us the option of a simpler system. while you may be right that the contract situation in fof is simpler than i make it out to be i still liked the older game that had a simpler system. i think the issue for me may be that i prefer a game that would be really deep on the coaching side and a little lighter on the gm side.

03-07-2005, 06:44 AM	#31
Cap Ologist College Prospect Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Flower Mound, TX	I doubt that the game will ever transition to one based more around coaching. It is called Front Office Football, not Coaching Staff Football.

03-07-2005, 08:21 AM	#33
mhass High School Varsity Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Here	waltwal also has the option of signing players without bonuses. You may night sign as many, but there's nothing that says you HAVE to use signing bonuses in FOF. __________________ Now while I wasn't able to cut everyone I wanted to, I have cut a lot of you. - H.J.S.

03-07-2005, 09:32 AM	#34
Bee Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fairfax, VA	Like many others that have already replied, I prefer the salary cap issues, etc to doing any coaching in the game. There are games out there that concentrate more on coaching I believe (isn't there something called Action PC Football or something like that where coaching and play design is much more the focus of the game? And isn't there something called MicroLeague Football that also concentrates and play design and coaching? I don't really keep up with the coaching games since that's not where my interest lies). FOF concentrates (not surprisingly) on the front office decision making in football not the coaching aspects of football. I'd be surprised and disappointed if that were to change in future versions.

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