OT: Organized Protestors march against USA.

[Dutch]

2nd Anniversary of the invasion of Iraq.

The big one today was 45,000 in London (followed by Rome and Istanbul).

But as usual, the major factions in the organizers steering committee are the communists, the green party, and the socialists.

[Crapshoot]

Of course- everyone who opposes you must be. Those 70-80% who opposed you in Europe and in Asia must all be communists.

[Dutch]

I'm informing you that the organizers of these "events" are sponsored by the communist parties, socialist parties, and green parties, of Europe and North America.

I simply researched it after asking the question, "Who are these groups that are organizing these demonstrations?".

[-Mojo Jojo-]

Ipso facto, everyone who opposes the war is a communist.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by -Mojo Jojo-

Ipso facto, everyone who opposes the war is a communist.

Not at all, as I have said, I oppose the war--just that I oppose terrorism more.

Every single time they mention the organizer's name in the press release, there is a web-site with an "about" page of some sort. Every single organized protest from September 2001 till today has had massive affiliations with the communist and socialist parties of the world.

The people (young/students?) are generally unaware of the representation of the organizers. I don't see a problem with having it aired out in public. Then let people decide. I believe in full disclosure. The information is there, but it's apparently up to the individual to hunt for it.

It is my belief that journalists should be doing this for the people. The major producers of news (Reuters, AP, AFP) don't do it.

[-Mojo Jojo-]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Not at all, as I have said, I oppose the war

So, if you had been president we wouldn't have gone to war with Iraq?

[Danny]

You guys going to keep on trying to troll Dutch in this thread?

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Not at all, as I have said, I oppose the war--just that I oppose terrorism more.

Every single time they mention the organizer's name in the press release, there is a web-site with an "about" page of some sort. Every single organized protest from September 2001 till today has had massive affiliations with the communist and socialist parties of the world.

The people (young/students?) are generally unaware of the representation of the organizers. I don't see a problem with having it aired out in public. Then let people decide. I believe in full disclosure. The information is there, but it's apparently up to the individual to hunt for it.

It is my belief that journalists should be doing this for the people. The major producers of news (Reuters, AP, AFP) don't do it.

This is more reasonable - I agree. I think if you polled most of the protestors (and I've generally found that they arent always the smartest tools in the shed), most would have no clue of the source, and would disagree with the intentions of the communists and what not. That being said, I would argue that most of the opposition is still fairly heartfelt - especially amongst people who do actually oppose the war as it stands. Across the world, there is strong majority opposition to it - a point worth noting. Most will not protest about it- call them the silent majority here.

[sovereignstar]

Originally Posted by Danny Drickman

You guys going to keep on trying to troll Dutch in this thread?

Dude, just look at the first post. What'd you expect? The trading of great casserole dishes?

[-Mojo Jojo-]

Originally Posted by Danny Drickman

You guys going to keep on trying to troll Dutch in this thread?

This thread is a troll. Turnabout is only fair play...

[Tekneek]

We have several socialist elements in our own government. Why are "socialists" still portrayed as bad guys? We import a ton of items from China, yet "communists" are still boogeymen that we should fear?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

We have several socialist elements in our own government. Why are "socialists" still portrayed as bad guys? We import a ton of items from China, yet "communists" are still boogeymen that we should fear?

Missed the point. I'm talking about full-disclosure. We want that from our government right? Why not from our anti-government?

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Missed the point. I'm talking about full-disclosure. We want that from our government right? Why not from our anti-government?

I don't have a problem with that. I'm just not getting what is supposed to be frightening about it. I might not like socialism or communism, but our government doesn't mind either...really. We import the most from Canada (pretty much socialist) and China (communist), so our government is ok with that. We stand side-by-side with Britain, which is quite socialist, militarily. Our government is not worried about it at all.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by -Mojo Jojo-

This thread is a troll. Turnabout is only fair play...

Actually you are wrong here, this thread, title and topic are not trolling at all. he presented facts, those who came in attacking him for it are trolling, nothing more. You take what you want to take from anything you read here, so I have to ask:

Why do you WANT it to be a trolling thread? you just can't live without a fight with Dutch? or perhaps its an inferiority complex trying to show itself?

Only time will tell.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

I don't have a problem with that. I'm just not getting what is supposed to be frightening about it. I might not like socialism or communism, but our government doesn't mind either...really. We import the most from Canada (pretty much socialist) and China (communist), so our government is ok with that. We stand side-by-side with Britain, which is quite socialist, militarily. Our government is not worried about it at all.

There are all forms of government on the planet, surely my only recourse isn't to suggest we become hostile towards all others or that the USA become isolationists outright.

China can have whatever form of government they want.

But that doesn't change the fact that the communist parties and socialist parties of America and Europe are claiming to be concerned about US Soldiers in Iraq when the protest when there true objective is to get people to say, "What's so bad about communism?"

I am curious, who knew the communist parties were a major organizer of the anti-US protests in America and Europe since 2001?

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I am curious, who knew the communist parties were a major organizer of the anti-US protests in America and Europe since 2001?

It seems like I had read about that before, but I don't recall when/where/why. It shouldn't surprise anyone. Those sorts of organizations are always looking to join in on anything like that. Even religious organizations help organize events that they think might further their cause or swell their rank-and-file. It should be expected. Few gatherings of any significant size are really just random people showing up. There is always a "get out the masses" movement organized by some group, which is motivated by seeing it as an opportunity to recruit.

[clintl]

Originally Posted by Dutch

There are all forms of government on the planet, surely my only recourse isn't to suggest we become hostile towards all others or that the USA become isolationists outright.

China can have whatever form of government they want.

But that doesn't change the fact that the communist parties and socialist parties of America and Europe are claiming to be concerned about US Soldiers in Iraq when the protest when there true objective is to get people to say, "What's so bad about communism?"

I am curious, who knew the communist parties were a major organizer of the anti-US protests in America and Europe since 2001?

If you are going to assert that communists are the major organizers of the opposition to the war, prove it. Or a least post some kind of supporting reference. Nearly every person I know who is against the war (and I know quite a few) is not a communist. One of them who has participated in a demonstration is a Lutheran minister, and my understanding is that the demonstration he participated in was organized by churches. So are you going to go after Christian denominations opposed to the war, too?

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

It seems like I had read about that before, but I don't recall when/where/why. It shouldn't surprise anyone. Those sorts of organizations are always looking to join in on anything like that. Even religious organizations help organize events that they think might further their cause or swell their rank-and-file. It should be expected. Few gatherings of any significant size are really just random people showing up. There is always a "get out the masses" movement organized by some group, which is motivated by seeing it as an opportunity to recruit.

Very true. The Christian Conservative movement here in America would not be so politically powerful today if it weren't for its tenacious grassroots organizing over the years...

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Actually you are wrong here, this thread, title and topic are not trolling at all. he presented facts, those who came in attacking him for it are trolling, nothing more. You take what you want to take from anything you read here, so I have to ask:

Why do you WANT it to be a trolling thread? you just can't live without a fight with Dutch? or perhaps its an inferiority complex trying to show itself?

Only time will tell.

Well, it's a trolling thread in the same way a bunch of people claim every thread that flasch starts with an article disparaging towards conservatives is trolling or posts a rolleyes.

SI

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by clintl

If you are going to assert that communists are the major organizers of the opposition to the war, prove it. Or a least post some kind of supporting reference.

There is a difference between leaders and followers. I'm picking on the leaders (organizers) not the followers.

The organizers of the London protest (the largest protest on Saturday @ 45,000 people), the Stop the War Coalition, said they had tried but failed to deliver a letter to the U.S. Embassy insisting that Bush and Blair pull their forces out of Iraq.

Stop the War Coalition
http://www.stopwar.org.uk/new/involv.../committee.htm

Stop the War Coalition that organized the largest protests was founded on the 21st of September, 2001. There are plenty of communist and socialist and greens members in this outfit.

United for Peace and Justice is the biggest one I'm aware of. Here's their list of sub-groups that they notify to send demonstrators to specific points.

http://www.unitedforpeace.org/article.php?id=1879

There are are lot of communists, socialist, and green party members in there. I'd say enough to warrant them being called "major contributors".

Newsworthy or not? I say it is.

[clintl]

OK, that's better. However, there are also a lot of church groups on the list, as well as all sorts of other groups, so why didn't you say communists, socialists, green party members, and church goers? If you look at that second list, you could pick out members of almost every segment of society. Hardly persuasive that the movement is being driven by a few political groups with radical agendas.

[chinaski]

Why does it matter in any way who protests the Iraq war?

Im sure there are THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of Christians who have protested this war, absolutely way more than any so-called "Communists", so wheres your beef with them Dutch? You really come off like a 1950's crackpot with all this commie talk, its really weird.

[Bubba Wheels]

Turkey can protest all they want, they are done politically as far as we are concerned. When they denied the northern route into Iraq that cost many U.S. lives and also allowed sanctuary to many of the insurgents (many of whom are foreigners in Iraq like we are.) Turkey's biggest fear is that the new Kurdish independence inside Iraq will spill over and incite their own large Kurdish population. Too bad. Turkey picked the wrong side and lost. We owe them nothing.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Dutch

There is a difference between leaders and followers. I'm picking on the leaders (organizers) not the followers.

The organizers of the London protest (the largest protest on Saturday @ 45,000 people), the Stop the War Coalition, said they had tried but failed to deliver a letter to the U.S. Embassy insisting that Bush and Blair pull their forces out of Iraq.

Stop the War Coalition
http://www.stopwar.org.uk/new/involv.../committee.htm

Stop the War Coalition that organized the largest protests was founded on the 21st of September, 2001. There are plenty of communist and socialist and greens members in this outfit.

United for Peace and Justice is the biggest one I'm aware of. Here's their list of sub-groups that they notify to send demonstrators to specific points.

http://www.unitedforpeace.org/article.php?id=1879

There are are lot of communists, socialist, and green party members in there. I'd say enough to warrant them being called "major contributors".

Newsworthy or not? I say it is.

I still don't see what the problem is with people organizing with an eye on gaining more influence. Look at the Schiavo thread to see how the current leadership is completely beholden to a minority special interest group. The Christian Conservative movement has shown what organization can do in gaining political power--and I really don't begrudge other groups for their attempts to use the same blueprint...

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Turkey's biggest fear is that the new Kurdish independence inside Iraq will spill over and incite their own large Kurdish population. Too bad. Turkey picked the wrong side and lost. We owe them nothing.

The US government used to turn the cheek when Turkey wanted to go after Kurds. Are you saying that policy will change now?

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

The US government used to turn the cheek when Turkey wanted to go after Kurds. Are you saying that policy will change now?

Sure hope so. I'd arm the Kurds to the teeth, and if Turkey went after them I'd even supply the Kurds with air support. Course, that's just me.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

I'd arm the Kurds to the teeth, and if Turkey went after them I'd even supply the Kurds with air support. Course, that's just me.

Sponsor the PKK? Now, the US wouldn't do anything that would get themselves on the list of state-sponsors of terrorist groups, would they?

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Sponsor the PKK? Now, the US wouldn't do anything that would get themselves on the list of state-sponsors of terrorist groups, would they?

Maybe we can just give Turkey back to the Greeks, let them handle it.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Turkey can protest all they want, they are done politically as far as we are concerned. When they denied the northern route into Iraq that cost many U.S. lives and also allowed sanctuary to many of the insurgents (many of whom are foreigners in Iraq like we are.) Turkey's biggest fear is that the new Kurdish independence inside Iraq will spill over and incite their own large Kurdish population. Too bad. Turkey picked the wrong side and lost. We owe them nothing.

Probably helped their entry into the EU, though.

[flere-imsaho]

Another interesting fact:

The majority of Americans do not now support the war.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that the majority of Americans aren't Communists, Socialists or Green Party members.

As far as fair play goes, I'm sure the press will start talking about the affiliations of the organizers of these marches at about the same time they start talking about the affiliations of the organizers of abortion clinic protests and anti-gay marriage demonstrations.

Two points:

1. Like it or not, it's generally "fringe" groups that organize protests about divisive issues.

2. You're asking too much from our Press to actually tell us this.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by chinaski

Why does it matter in any way who protests the Iraq war?

Im sure there are THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of Christians who have protested this war, absolutely way more than any so-called "Communists", so wheres your beef with them Dutch?

Millions of Christians have supported efforts to stop terrorism, I'm not sure I know any communist parties that are supporting the war on terror. Do you? If so, I'd be glad to see some proof.

You really come off like a 1950's crackpot with all this commie talk, its really weird.

So people who dislike communism are crackpots now? Communism is something that is completely opposite of Democracy. It's also very real. We are not talking about space-aliens now. As pointed out above, multiple communist parties are organizing young-people and liberals (and whomever else they can get to protest) to get out and demonstrate their disgust with the USA's policies.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Millions of Christians have supported efforts to stop terrorism, I'm not sure I know any communist parties that are supporting the war on terror. Do you? If so, I'd be glad to see some proof.

Depends on whose war on terror. Does China's crackdown on Uighur terrorists count?

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Dutch

So people who dislike communism are crackpots now?

I don't think that's what he's saying. I think he's saying that people who think there are a whole bunch of communist conspiracies going on now are crackpots. Whether or not that's what you're doing is a subjective question, and I have no opinion on that, at the moment.

Communism is something that is completely opposite of Democracy.

Not really. Technically, in a communistic society everyone has an equal stake and equal say in the government. As such, the U.S.S.R., Cuba and China aren't really communistic societies. You're looking more at something like a kibbutz in Israel, but on a larger scale.

The opposite of Democracy is probably Totalitarianism, where the citizens have no say in affairs of state at all. I.e. the U.S.S.R., Cuba & China.

As pointed out above, multiple communist parties are organizing young-people and liberals to get out and demonstrate their disgust with the USA's policies.

Fine, but the point you're implicitly making is that were it not for these groups, people wouldn't come out to protest, and less people would be anti-war.

I don't find those points convincing. First of all, your own links show a variety of groups helping in the organization of anti-war demonstrations. Were the communists, et. al., not to exist, I believe one of these groups would be the lead organizers.

Secondly, given the fact that most protesters seem unaware of who is organizing these protests (a point I believe you do make), it seems being anti-war is a sentiment not necessarily driven by "party" affiliation (for lack of a better phrase).

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Another interesting fact:

The majority of Americans do not now support the war.

I do not support the war either, but I support the terrorists war on civlians even less. So to me, it's the lesser of two evils.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that the majority of Americans aren't Communists, Socialists or Green Party members.

I think I have tried to be clear that I am talking about the organizers, not the people who they are misleading.

As far as fair play goes, I'm sure the press will start talking about the affiliations of the organizers of these marches at about the same time they start talking about the affiliations of the organizers of abortion clinic protests and anti-gay marriage demonstrations.

I'm not familiar with the size of these protests. Are these massive organized efforts?

Two points:

1. Like it or not, it's generally "fringe" groups that organize protests about divisive issues.

2. You're asking too much from our Press to actually tell us this.

Point #1 - I agree.

Point #2 - They need to do better. It is my belief that the free press has a responsability to give us as much information as they legally can. I'd like to see the press do some investigative journalism and really find out who these organizers are.

[Bubba Wheels]

Communism is an economic system, Democracy is a political system. You are comparing apples to oranges with the two. We live in a Capitalistic Democracy (Constitutional Republic, to be semantic) and almost all Communist countries are Totalitarian (because according to Marx, when Government becomes obsolete all the happy workers join hands, sing 'Up With People" or something similar and the Government dissolves. Human nature being what it is, though, we see many examples of Communist governments dissolving after becoming obsolete right? More likely, those in power living like kings as the masses live in poverty awaiting rice-cookers from their benevolent government (like the Cubans) just will not want to leave.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Not really. Technically, in a communistic society everyone has an equal stake and equal say in the government. As such, the U.S.S.R., Cuba and China aren't really communistic societies. You're looking more at something like a kibbutz in Israel, but on a larger scale.

The opposite of Democracy is probably Totalitarianism, where the citizens have no say in affairs of state at all. I.e. the U.S.S.R., Cuba & China.

Exactly, a strong communistic system histrorically converts into dictatorships. A strong democracy does not. That's the main reason why I think we enjoy living in the US vs. those places.

Fine, but the point you're implicitly making is that were it not for these groups, people wouldn't come out to protest, and less people would be anti-war.

I've made no such point. I have suggested that these groups will organize protest any action or inaction the US makes. Many of these same groups protested during the Clinton admin as well. This is not about everybody's right to be anti-war or pro-war. As I have said, I am anti-war.

I don't find those points convincing. First of all, your own links show a variety of groups helping in the organization of anti-war demonstrations. Were the communists, et. al., not to exist, I believe one of these groups would be the lead organizers.

You are probably right, but as of right now, the large percentage of the groups look to have affiliations with communism, socialism, and greens.

Secondly, given the fact that most protesters seem unaware of who is organizing these protests (a point I believe you do make), it seems being anti-war is a sentiment not necessarily driven by "party" affiliation (for lack of a better phrase).

I agree completely. But I contest that if protestor's knew that the organizers were communists and anti-US groups, they might be less likely to want to be associated with them.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I think I have tried to be clear that I am talking about the organizers, not the people who they are misleading.

I'm not sure that it is that big of a deal to join a demonstration even if you don't completely agree with the people organizing them. You are demonstrating against an issue that matters to you yourself, and not necessarily in support of the agenda of whoever is organizing the protest.

It is well known that Operation Rescue has links to the white supremacist movement. Does that mean that rank and file people going out to the clinics to protest abortion are necessarily white supremacists? Of course not... they just care about abortion, and could care less what links the organizers may have.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Communism is an economic system, Democracy is a political system. You are comparing apples to oranges with the two. We live in a Capitalistic Democracy (Constitutional Republic, to be semantic) and almost all Communist countries are Totalitarian (because according to Marx, when Government becomes obsolete all the happy workers join hands, sing 'Up With People" or something similar and the Government dissolves. Human nature being what it is, though, we see many examples of Communist governments dissolving after becoming obsolete right? More likely, those in power living like kings as the masses live in poverty awaiting rice-cookers from their benevolent government (like the Cubans) just will not want to leave.

Well, it's all generalizations that can be broken down in the end. Now why would a bunch of groups that only care about an economic system be organizing political rallies across Europe and America? The communist parties are political, while there foundation is the economic idea of collective economy.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

I'm not sure that it is that big of a deal to join a demonstration even if you don't completely agree with the people organizing them.

I agree. My contention is that people are not aware and if they were, they would be less likely to want to be apart of it.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

I'm not sure that it is that big of a deal to join a demonstration even if you don't completely agree with the people organizing them. You are demonstrating against an issue you yourself believe in, and not necessarily in support of the agenda of whoever is organizing the protest.

It is well known that Operation Rescue has links to the white supremacist movement. Does that mean that rank and file people going out to the clinics to protest abortion are necessarily white supremacists? Of course not... they just care about abortion, and could care less what links the organizers may have.

Please support your accusation. I have never heard of a link between Operation Rescue and any white supremacist group before. Since most abortion clinics appear to be within the limits of bigger cities to begin with, why would white supremacists object to abortions amongst minorities as your charge would seem to imply. Don't recall Operation Rescue saying abortions for minorities is ok but not for whites. Sounds more like your charge stems from anti-Pro-Life group propaganda.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Well, it's all generalizations that can be broken down in the end. Now why would a bunch of groups that only care about an economic system be organizing political rallies across Europe and America? The communist parties are political, while there foundation is the economic idea of collective economy.

That is exactly why communist and Communist appear in print. Small c denotes the purely Marxist theory of economics which cannot possibly exist under real human nature. Hence all forms of real-life communism are spelled with the big C, Communism, as being some twisted form of the ideal always including the political aspect.

But you can then say that Communism is actually a combination that should be broken down into its two parts, communist economics coupled with totalitarian government. Marx allows for totalitarian government stating that this is the most efficient way to create the true communist state. But there is never any time limit given on that phase morphing into the final one. And a realist will tell you it not only won't, but couldn't happen given human nature. Those in power will never want to give it up. Period.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I do not support the war either, but I support the terrorists war on civlians even less. So to me, it's the lesser of two evils.

Yeah, I think we've had this argument before. I'm anti-war for a number of reasons, including a belief that our war in Iraq has not helped our war on terrorism, in fact, has probably hindered it. Like I said, though, I'm pretty sure we argued about that before, so let's just agree to disagree on this (tangential) point.

I think I have tried to be clear that I am talking about the organizers, not the people who they are misleading.

No, you've made it clear. The point I'm trying to make is that the majority of people who attend these marches aren't going to be swayed by a pro-communist message. I also find the idea that the communists are using the Iraq war as a recruiting tool hard to fathom. Clearly you feel differently.

Point #2 - They need to do better. It is my belief that the free press has a responsability to give us as much information as they legally can. I'd like to see the press do some investigative journalism and really find out who these organizers are.

Hey, you agree with Jon Stewart!

Anyway, I agree with you on Point #2 (as it applies to all organizers of rallies, protests, legislation, etc... - it's not just the left-wing that deserves attention). However, I'm just pointing out that this is rather unlikely to happen with our current 4th Estate.

[WussGawd]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I'm informing you that the organizers of these "events" are sponsored by the communist parties, socialist parties, and green parties, of Europe and North America.

I simply researched it after asking the question, "Who are these groups that are organizing these demonstrations?".

Um, yeah. Right.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by WussGawd

Um, yeah. Right.

One step forward, two steps back....oh, I mean, "Hi, Wussgawd!"

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Please support your accusation. I have never heard of a link between Operation Rescue and any white supremacist group before. Since most abortion clinics appear to be within the limits of bigger cities to begin with, why would white supremacists object to abortions amongst minorities as your charge would seem to imply. Don't recall Operation Rescue saying abortions for minorities is ok but not for whites. Sounds more like your charge stems from anti-Pro-Life group propaganda.

It's not really an accusation--Randall Terry, Operation Rescue's founder, is involved in the Christian Identity/Reconstructionist movement. The identity/reconstructionist people don't care about minority abortions but were moved by their concern that abortion was having an impact on the white birthrate.

Again, to Dutch's point about the rank-and-file not necessarily caring about the agenda of some of their organzers, most anti-abortion protesters aren't racists and only care about the abortion issue, I doubt if they really give a damn about the ideology of some of the more militant people in the movement...

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I agree. My contention is that people are not aware and if they were, they would be less likely to want to be apart of it.

Fair enough. I think a lot of people are aware of who is organizing the rallies (since they are usually the most vocal ones at said rallies), but are willing to tolerate the connection. At the more liberal colleges, most aren't naive and they know that the campus rabble-rousers (usally socialists/communists) probably have a hand in it. But yeah, I do agree that many don't appreciate the level of organization many of these groups actually have.

[Dutch]

Damnit, I joined the military to fight communists, I should've gone to college instead!

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Damnit, I joined the military to fight communists, I should've gone to college instead!

Funny, I joined the military to get my college education. I saw some Communists, both military (Soviet officers in Frankfurt) and civilian (lots of students in Frankfurt with big, red flags) but never had to fight any, thankfully!

[sterlingice]

Wow, it's definitely time to unsubscribe from this thread.

SI

[Bubba Wheels]

If you want to see a Communist today, just watch Hillary on TV.