Baseball Pickoff Success Rate (coach question)

Adamski47 · 04-01-2005, 12:56 PM

I am coaching JV baseball and we have a kid who is OBSESSED with trying to pick runners off of 1st, 3rd even 2nd base. The majority (and I do mean majority) of the time he throws the ball away only to create more problems.

Obviously, the other coach and myself have sat down with him and talked about how he needs to limit (or eliminate) his pickoff move but to no avail.

Hell, today at practice the kid even tried picking off a runner on 3rd in a drill working with catcher throw downs (and baiting etc).

Anyway, I am looking for some kind of statistic showing the success of pickoff attempts in MLB or even younger if possible. I just want to show this kid, who is a good tall young pitcher (just a freshman) that it's typically not worth the risk (especially with his move yikes!).

THANKS!

st.cronin · 04-01-2005, 12:58 PM

How about the next time he tries it, you pull him from the game? That ought to get his attention faster than any stat.

Adamski47 · 04-01-2005, 01:04 PM

We've done that, we've only had one scrimmage but we didn't let him out of the dugout after he did it twice in one inning and a third time trying to get a guy after a play as he was walking back to the mound when the baserunner on 2nd was no more than 2 feet off the bag.

Honestly, I think he thinks it's worth his while to keep trying. I mean, in practice, that's fine to work on to an extent but to do it in a game that bad numerous times, and then in a drill just proves he has some sort of (for lack of a better term) addiction to throwing to a bag.

st.cronin · 04-01-2005, 01:08 PM

It sounds like it might be a subconscious thing on his part, then. You've got to get his teammates involved - play the first basemen off the bag, tell him not to even make eye contact with the pitcher, that sort of thing.

Adamski47 · 04-01-2005, 01:14 PM

The time he threw to 3rd base the 3rd baseman was not on the bag and was not looking (obviously). Luckily our LF got to it before too much damage was done lol.

He threw it into thin air.

Static Cling · 04-01-2005, 01:23 PM

pickoff attempts and the success rate of those attempts really isn't something that is tracked, or easily found...I did find this little nugget though about a study Stats did back in 1990:

"One of the most interesting early work that STATS did was in counting pickoff throws. The research they did back in 1990 showed that one pickoff throw was enough to reduce base stealing success. More than one had no effect. It appears that first pickoff sends enough of a message, keeps the runner close enought that no others are needed. Of course, not many have picked up on this fact."

st.cronin · 04-01-2005, 01:24 PM

I think maybe this needs to be a dynasty.

stevew · 04-01-2005, 01:25 PM

Just tell him that you are gonna put him in a permanent vegetative state the next time that he tries a pickoff move.

samifan24 · 04-01-2005, 01:40 PM

I'd just tell him that he needs to focus on the control, location and quality of his pitches if he wants to keep runners off the basepaths. It sounds as though he's almost obsessed with picking guys off. If he placed more emphasis on pitching than pickoffs, it's likely that everyone involved would enjoy a better experience. That said, I doubt it will happen because it's JV ball and it sounds like you've got a very stubborn kid on your hands. Good luck.

stkelly52 · 04-01-2005, 02:06 PM

You could always let him know that you are on the verge of cutting him. If he can't follow your instructions then why waste the time on him?

stevew · 04-01-2005, 02:08 PM

Yeah, STKelly has the right idea. If hes gonna be a hard headed idiot, let him play RF or something. He's gotta learn his team cant lose just cause he wants to pick people off randomly. Just for reference sakes tho, how good is this kid? Like greater than K/ip and a 2k/bb ratio?

Huckleberry · 04-01-2005, 02:10 PM

The other coach and I

Karlifornia · 04-01-2005, 02:40 PM

Tell him that if he makes one more pickoff throw, then he doesn't get his steroids this season.

gstelmack · 04-01-2005, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

The other coach and I

He pick you off while posting?

st.cronin · 04-01-2005, 02:54 PM

Have the catcher shout at him after every pitch: "DO NOT MAKE A PICKOFF THROW!!"

Travis · 04-01-2005, 03:00 PM

Stats in this situation really wouldn't help or hinder your arguement, as every pitcher should have 2 or 3 moves, and you shouldn't necessarily be trying to actually pick the runner off every time you throw over.

Half the battle with pick off moves is to use a normal, slower move to just keep guys from taking liberties with their leadoffs, while saving your best move(s) for a time where it could be crucial to the game to try and get an actual out with the throw over.

When I was taught the thought process for pick offs (I was a RHP, so we were never going to have the move that lefties can have), 95% of the time, you're just reminding the runner that you're aware of him, but the most important thing is to make a solid throw to the target. If anything, having a very deliberate and precise move can make that runner figure he can take an extra step in his lead because he beat the throw easily, then you go for the out with your best move, but most of the time, they'll shorten their lead a bit and you don't have to worry much more.

Best thing that could happen to this guy is to have him get smoked by the guy batting so that he remembers that his attention should be on the hitter, not the runner. Short of that, keep him on a short leash, or even tell him that unless the catcher signals for a throw over, that he's not allowed to make a pick off move.

WSUCougar · 04-01-2005, 03:18 PM

Or you could try reverse psychology.

Tell him that you've seen the light and want to accomodate his pick-offery. Then make him practice that ridiculous fake-to-third-throw-to-first horse shit maneuver. Over and over and over. Then have his teammates suggest to him that MAN, does he ever look like a dork.

Case closed.

NEXT!

Travis · 04-01-2005, 03:27 PM

Heh, the good old fake to third, almost as good as having the 2B and SS spread out really wide, then having the CF sneak in for the pick off move at second. Gotta love little league

Building on what I said at the end of my earlier post, limit his pickoff moves to one's signalled by the catcher (who calls your games, the catcher or the coach thru the catcher?), with the most he (the pitcher in question) can do on his own is to step off the rubber and look the runner back.

If he throws a pickoff without a signal or steps off the rubber more than once on a baserunner, then he gets pulled. Go like that until he makes it through 4 or 5 outings without getting pulled, and give him a game to make his own decisions. If he reverts back to form, then he's under the previous rules for the rest of the year, but if he shows a bit more in the brain department and doesn't go overboard on his own, keep him going on his own.

04-01-2005, 01:40 PM	#9
samifan24 Pro Starter Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: NC	I'd just tell him that he needs to focus on the control, location and quality of his pitches if he wants to keep runners off the basepaths. It sounds as though he's almost obsessed with picking guys off. If he placed more emphasis on pitching than pickoffs, it's likely that everyone involved would enjoy a better experience. That said, I doubt it will happen because it's JV ball and it sounds like you've got a very stubborn kid on your hands. Good luck. __________________ "You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball...and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time." -Jim Bouton

04-01-2005, 02:06 PM	#10
stkelly52 College Benchwarmer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Seattle WA	You could always let him know that you are on the verge of cutting him. If he can't follow your instructions then why waste the time on him? __________________ Check out an undrafted free agent's attempt to make the Hall of Fame: Running to the Hall Now nominated for a Golden Scribe!

04-01-2005, 02:10 PM	#12
Huckleberry College Starter Join Date: Dec 2001	The other coach and I __________________ The one thing all your failed relationships have in common is you. The Barking Carnival (Longhorn-centered sports blog) College Football Adjusted Stats and Ratings

04-01-2005, 02:40 PM	#13
Karlifornia Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: San Jose, CA	Tell him that if he makes one more pickoff throw, then he doesn't get his steroids this season. __________________ Look into the mind of a crazy man (NSFW) http://www.whitepowerupdate.wordpress.com

04-01-2005, 03:18 PM	#17
WSUCougar Rider Of Rohan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Port Angeles, WA or Helm's Deep	Or you could try reverse psychology. Tell him that you've seen the light and want to accomodate his pick-offery. Then make him practice that ridiculous fake-to-third-throw-to-first horse shit maneuver. Over and over and over. Then have his teammates suggest to him that MAN, does he ever look like a dork. Case closed. NEXT! __________________ It's not the years...it's the mileage.

04-01-2005, 12:58 PM	#2
st.cronin General Manager Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: New Mexico	How about the next time he tries it, you pull him from the game? That ought to get his attention faster than any stat.

04-01-2005, 01:04 PM	#3
Adamski47 High School JV Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Chicago, IL	We've done that, we've only had one scrimmage but we didn't let him out of the dugout after he did it twice in one inning and a third time trying to get a guy after a play as he was walking back to the mound when the baserunner on 2nd was no more than 2 feet off the bag. Honestly, I think he thinks it's worth his while to keep trying. I mean, in practice, that's fine to work on to an extent but to do it in a game that bad numerous times, and then in a drill just proves he has some sort of (for lack of a better term) addiction to throwing to a bag.

04-01-2005, 01:08 PM	#4
st.cronin General Manager Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: New Mexico	It sounds like it might be a subconscious thing on his part, then. You've got to get his teammates involved - play the first basemen off the bag, tell him not to even make eye contact with the pitcher, that sort of thing.

04-01-2005, 01:14 PM	#5
Adamski47 High School JV Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Chicago, IL	The time he threw to 3rd base the 3rd baseman was not on the bag and was not looking (obviously). Luckily our LF got to it before too much damage was done lol. He threw it into thin air.

04-01-2005, 01:23 PM	#6
Static Cling n00b Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: NY	pickoff attempts and the success rate of those attempts really isn't something that is tracked, or easily found...I did find this little nugget though about a study Stats did back in 1990: "One of the most interesting early work that STATS did was in counting pickoff throws. The research they did back in 1990 showed that one pickoff throw was enough to reduce base stealing success. More than one had no effect. It appears that first pickoff sends enough of a message, keeps the runner close enought that no others are needed. Of course, not many have picked up on this fact."

04-01-2005, 01:24 PM	#7
st.cronin General Manager Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: New Mexico	I think maybe this needs to be a dynasty.

04-01-2005, 01:25 PM	#8
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	Just tell him that you are gonna put him in a permanent vegetative state the next time that he tries a pickoff move.

04-01-2005, 02:08 PM	#11
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	Yeah, STKelly has the right idea. If hes gonna be a hard headed idiot, let him play RF or something. He's gotta learn his team cant lose just cause he wants to pick people off randomly. Just for reference sakes tho, how good is this kid? Like greater than K/ip and a 2k/bb ratio?

04-01-2005, 02:54 PM	#15
st.cronin General Manager Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: New Mexico	Have the catcher shout at him after every pitch: "DO NOT MAKE A PICKOFF THROW!!"

04-01-2005, 03:00 PM	#16
Travis Pro Rookie Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Canada eh	Stats in this situation really wouldn't help or hinder your arguement, as every pitcher should have 2 or 3 moves, and you shouldn't necessarily be trying to actually pick the runner off every time you throw over. Half the battle with pick off moves is to use a normal, slower move to just keep guys from taking liberties with their leadoffs, while saving your best move(s) for a time where it could be crucial to the game to try and get an actual out with the throw over. When I was taught the thought process for pick offs (I was a RHP, so we were never going to have the move that lefties can have), 95% of the time, you're just reminding the runner that you're aware of him, but the most important thing is to make a solid throw to the target. If anything, having a very deliberate and precise move can make that runner figure he can take an extra step in his lead because he beat the throw easily, then you go for the out with your best move, but most of the time, they'll shorten their lead a bit and you don't have to worry much more. Best thing that could happen to this guy is to have him get smoked by the guy batting so that he remembers that his attention should be on the hitter, not the runner. Short of that, keep him on a short leash, or even tell him that unless the catcher signals for a throw over, that he's not allowed to make a pick off move.

04-01-2005, 03:27 PM	#18
Travis Pro Rookie Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Canada eh	Heh, the good old fake to third, almost as good as having the 2B and SS spread out really wide, then having the CF sneak in for the pick off move at second. Gotta love little league Building on what I said at the end of my earlier post, limit his pickoff moves to one's signalled by the catcher (who calls your games, the catcher or the coach thru the catcher?), with the most he (the pitcher in question) can do on his own is to step off the rubber and look the runner back. If he throws a pickoff without a signal or steps off the rubber more than once on a baserunner, then he gets pulled. Go like that until he makes it through 4 or 5 outings without getting pulled, and give him a game to make his own decisions. If he reverts back to form, then he's under the previous rules for the rest of the year, but if he shows a bit more in the brain department and doesn't go overboard on his own, keep him going on his own.

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