Pedro tells Red Sox they can keep his world series ring.

[Bearcat729]

http://www.nypost.com/sports/mets/44050.htm


PEDRO: SOX CAN KEEP RING

By MICHAEL MORRISSEY

April 7, 2005 -- He left Boston as a World Series champion, but Pedro Martinez didn't leave on good terms. Still upset with how management handled his free-agent courtship, the new Mets ace gave the ultimate diss to the Red Sox yesterday.

"If they want to keep the (World Series) ring, that's fine," Martinez told the Boston Herald.

Boston general manager Theo Epstein seemed more saddened than annoyed by the latest comments from Martinez, who often perceives something or someone is against him.

"It's his ring," Epstein said. "He earned it.

"He was a huge part of putting us in that position and a huge part of winning the World Series. He earned it, he deserved it, so that's all the comment I have."

After leaving the Sox for a better financial offer and more years with the Mets, Martinez revealed he felt jilted during his introductory press conference at Shea Stadium.

In yesterday's Herald, Martinez sounded concerned the Red Sox smeared him for the purposes of spin control.



"I can live with the business part of it, not being able to afford me, or thinking I'm not that good, but I cannot understand the part where you mistreat my name, or mistreat what I did for the city of Boston because they have to build another image of me," Martinez said from Cincinnati.

Epstein believed he had a good relationship with Martinez and said the Red Sox have nothing but good things to say about the diminutive righty, who won 117 games in Boston from 1998-2004.

"He was a dominant guy here," Epstein said. "Our franchise would not be in the position it's in today without his contribution.

"He's a Hall of Famer and did most of that with the Red Sox. So he's got a heck of a legacy with us, that's for sure."

[albionmoonlight]

My first thought is that this will prevent the Sports Guy from writing about anything interesting over the next couple of months.

[Ksyrup]

What exactly did the Sox say publicly about him? Or has Pedro been reading too many Peter Gammons articles and getting pissed about what sources say?

Seriously, I don't remember anything other than the obvious discussion about giving so many years and so much money to a guy who may be on the downside of his career. It's not like Epstein made some public comment (that I can remember) like he did recently about Kim, calling his signing a mistake at a press conference.

[EagleFan]

I guess the rumors are true? Pedro really is a woman.

[rkmsuf]

Be a man and give the ring to Nelson.

[WSUCougar]

Or give it to the Cardinals...we certainly earned it for Boston.

[SirFozzie]

Sorry Pedro feels disrespected by the BoSox, we still appreciate what he did here, and always will.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Bearcat729

April 7, 2005 -- He left Boston as a World Series champion, but Pedro Martinez didn't leave on good terms. Still upset with how management handled his free-agent courtship, the new Mets ace gave the ultimate diss to the Red Sox yesterday.

Translation: "Still upset that the Red Sox didn't offer him 2 billion dollars, a palace and a harem...."

[KevinNU7]

I DON'T CARE ANYMORE!

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

Or give it to the Cardinals...we certainly earned it for Boston.

This is the correct answer.

[Ksyrup]

Oh, c'mon, the Cardinals got their asses kicked. Yes, they didn't help things with their play and contributed to the losses, but what losing team doesn't? They could have played superb and still lost in 6 games. Sheesh.

[Crapshoot]

Pedro circa 1999 and 2000 was the greatest pitcher most of have seen or will see in our lifetimes - that kind of domination is unworldly. For 7 years, the Sox had a guy who was the best pitcher in baseball over that period. No matter what else happens, I for one always want Pedro to succeed - he should be appreciated for just how damn good he was.

[Subby]

Not that I didn't like Theo already, but his response is top-notch...I love this guy.

[Castlerock]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Pedro circa 1999 and 2000 was the greatest pitcher most of have seen or will see in our lifetimes - that kind of domination is unworldly. For 7 years, the Sox had a guy who was the best pitcher in baseball over that period. No matter what else happens, I for one always want Pedro to succeed - he should be appreciated for just how damn good he was.

The overwhelming majority of people agree (including, I believe, the Red Sox management). The Red Sox simply were not willing to risk the kind of money Pedro was looking for on someone who may be beginning to show the signs of age. Pedro may be dominant for years to come but the risk that he would not was simply too high.

I believe that Pedro simply wants respect. Unfortunately, the only way to show Pedro respect is with truckloads of cash. Nothing else matters. Anything short is disrespect. Listen to his tirade at his first Mets press conference if you have any doubt.

All of Boston appreciates how good he was and how special it was to watch him pitch. Pedro does not see that, though.

[DaddyTorgo]

agree with everything said here already. Pedro from 97-2000 was simply I have to believe the best pitcher I will ever see in my lifetime. In fact I think if you compare his stats for those seasons with some of the greatest pitchers in history they are comprable. And Boston will always love Pedro for being a part of the 2004 Red Sox. I will always appreciate him for what he did on the field for us. That being said...his act is real old, and I for one wasn't all that sorry to see him go as a result of that, regardless of what it does to the W-L record of the team.

[st.cronin]

We don't neccesarily know what went on behind the scenes. On the other hand, I think it's safe to say that Pedro is a bit daffy.

[Castlerock]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

We don't neccesarily know what went on behind the scenes. On the other hand, I think it's safe to say that Pedro is a bit daffy.

True and true.

[rkmsuf]

I seriously think the guy is crazy.

Nice job telling Ortiz to stay in Boston for 6 mil a year though because he was definately coming back and then bolt. It was a win/win for the Red Sox.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

We don't neccesarily know what went on behind the scenes. On the other hand, I think it's safe to say that Pedro is a bit daffy.

His quotes above indicate that he is upset with how Boston is treating his name publically:

Originally Posted by Pedro

"I can live with the business part of it, not being able to afford me, or thinking I'm not that good, but I cannot understand the part where you mistreat my name, or mistreat what I did for the city of Boston because they have to build another image of me," Martinez said from Cincinnati.

[SirFozzie]

In other words, we didn't offer him the money he thought he deserved

[LionsFan10]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Be a man and give the ring to Nomar.

Fixed that for you

[Desnudo]

Pedro believes contract negotiations should involve only him telling the team how much he wants and then the team agreeing. Anything else is an insult to his manhood.

[Swaggs]

Just speculating here, but I wonder if he is referring to all the "injury-risk" talk that went around prior to his signing? Maybe it was justified, maybe it was not, but I can see how he would be upset with people talking up his injury "proneness" while he is trying to get every possible dollar that he can.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Just speculating here, but I wonder if he is referring to all the "injury-risk" talk that went around prior to his signing? Maybe it was justified, maybe it was not, but I can see how he would be upset with people talking up his injury "proneness" while he is trying to get every possible dollar that he can.

that theory would prove that he is nothing but a big baby. throw more than 6 innings once in a while.

[Desnudo]

So far with the Mets, it looks like his standard line from last year. 6 innings, 3 ER, lots of Ks.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

So far with the Mets, it looks like his standard line from last year. 6 innings, 3 ER, lots of Ks.

Pretty soon someone from NY will say something and they'll get a taste of Pedro.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Translation: "Still upset that the Red Sox didn't offer him 2 billion dollars, a palace and a harem...."

Are those such unreasonable demands?

SI

[KWhit]

Pedro's an ass.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

My first thought is that this will prevent the Sports Guy from writing about anything interesting over the next couple of months.

That guy played himself out so hard and fast with his Boston obsession.

Do they still do those bad cartoons?

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

agree with everything said here already. Pedro from 97-2000 was simply I have to believe the best pitcher I will ever see in my lifetime.

I dunno, I think Maddux from 92-95 was just as good, if not better than Pedro. He got less K's, but his ERA and walks were better of a similar span

Maddux

   Year Ag Tm  Lg  W   L   G   GS  CG SHO  GF SV   IP     H    R   ER   HR  BB   SO  HBP  WP  BFP   ERA *lgERA *ERA+
   1992 26 CHC NL  20  11  35  35   9   4   0  0  268.0  201   68   65   7   70  199  14   5  1061  2.18  3.61  166
   1993 27 ATL NL  20  10  36  36   8   1   0  0  267.0  228   85   70  14   52  197   6   5  1064  2.36  4.05  171
   1994 28 ATL NL  16   6  25  25  10   3   0  0  202.0  150   44   35   4   31  156   6   3   774  1.56  4.26  273
   1995 29 ATL NL  19   2  28  28  10   3   0  0  209.7  147   39   38   8   23  181   4   1   785  1.63  4.23  259
                   75  29 124 124  37  11   0  0  946.7  726  236  208  33  176  733  30  14  3684  1.98
 
  Martinez
   Year Ag Tm  Lg  W   L   G   GS  CG SHO  GF SV   IP     H    R   ER   HR  BB   SO  HBP  WP  BFP   ERA *lgERA *ERA+
   1997 25 MON NL  17   8  31  31  13   4   0  0  241.3  158   65   51  16   67  305   9   3   947  1.90  4.21  221
   1998 26 BOS AL  19   7  33  33   3   2   0  0  233.7  188   82   75  26   67  251   8   9   951  2.89  4.61  160
   1999 27 BOS AL  23   4  31  29   5   1   1  0  213.3  160   56   49   9   37  313   9   6   835  2.07  5.07  245
   2000 28 BOS AL  18   6  29  29   7   4   0  0  217.0  128   44   42  17   32  284  14   1   817  1.74  4.97  285
                   77  25 124 122  28  11   1  0  905.3  634  247  217  68  203 1153  40  19  3550  2.16
 

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

I dunno, I think Maddux from 92-95 was just as good, if not better than Pedro. He got less K's, but his ERA and walks were better of a similar span

Maddux

   Year Ag Tm  Lg  W   L   G   GS  CG SHO  GF SV   IP     H    R   ER   HR  BB   SO  HBP  WP  BFP   ERA *lgERA *ERA+
   1992 26 CHC NL  20  11  35  35   9   4   0  0  268.0  201   68   65   7   70  199  14   5  1061  2.18  3.61  166
   1993 27 ATL NL  20  10  36  36   8   1   0  0  267.0  228   85   70  14   52  197   6   5  1064  2.36  4.05  171
   1994 28 ATL NL  16   6  25  25  10   3   0  0  202.0  150   44   35   4   31  156   6   3   774  1.56  4.26  273
   1995 29 ATL NL  19   2  28  28  10   3   0  0  209.7  147   39   38   8   23  181   4   1   785  1.63  4.23  259
                   75  29 124 124  37  11   0  0  946.7  726  236  208  33  176  733  30  14  3684  1.98
 
  Martinez
   Year Ag Tm  Lg  W   L   G   GS  CG SHO  GF SV   IP     H    R   ER   HR  BB   SO  HBP  WP  BFP   ERA *lgERA *ERA+
   1997 25 MON NL  17   8  31  31  13   4   0  0  241.3  158   65   51  16   67  305   9   3   947  1.90  4.21  221
   1998 26 BOS AL  19   7  33  33   3   2   0  0  233.7  188   82   75  26   67  251   8   9   951  2.89  4.61  160
   1999 27 BOS AL  23   4  31  29   5   1   1  0  213.3  160   56   49   9   37  313   9   6   835  2.07  5.07  245
   2000 28 BOS AL  18   6  29  29   7   4   0  0  217.0  128   44   42  17   32  284  14   1   817  1.74  4.97  285
                   77  25 124 122  28  11   1  0  905.3  634  247  217  68  203 1153  40  19  3550  2.16
 

People always overrate power pitchers. Not that Pedro wasn't sweet, mind, but as Todd Jones said in the Sporting News "0 for 4 is 0 for 4" whether the pitcher overpowers you or not.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

I dunno, I think Maddux from 92-95 was just as good, if not better than Pedro. He got less K's, but his ERA and walks were better of a similar span

Yep. The early-to-mid 90's Maddux has been the best span for a pitcher since Koufax in the 60's.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

that theory would prove that he is nothing but a big baby. throw more than 6 innings once in a while.

Actually, I believe it was posted by someone else on this site (trying to remember who) that Pedro had 2/3rds of his starts going 7+ innings, which is the same percentage as someone like Jason Schmidt.

[ISiddiqui]

A good way to compare is using ERA+

Maddux:
1992 - 166
1993 - 171
1994 - 273
1995 - 259

Pedro:
1997 - 221
1998 - 160
1999 - 245
2000 - 285

I'd give the edge to Pedro, but not by a lot.

[Easy Mac]

I think there's more to pitching than 1 stat.

[ISiddiqui]

ERA+ compares earned runs adjusting for era and park factors. So it's simply one stat. It takes into account other stats to normalize ERA, which in itself is a combination of Earned Runs and Innings Pitched.

It's like saying there is more to hitting than one stat in refering to OPS+. True, but OPS+ includes many stats.

[CentralMassHokie]

The original Boston Herald article was a complete hackjob by a paper that is pretty much become a tabloid. The headline talked about Pedro ripping Theo, then you read the article and the worst thing he said was that he just disagreed with the way the organization handled negotiations.

The Pedro/Boston relationship is an odd one. I still love the guy and think Theo made a grevious mistake not offering him 3 years, $40m during the exclusive negotiation period. There's a ton of evidence Pedro would have signed that and not even made it to the open market. He's no more of an injury risk than Schilling is at this point, and arguably less since he's never had a lower body injury, is younger, and is now a few years removed from his last significant injury.

And then, of course, all of the talk about Pedro never making it out of the 6th is ridiculous. He averaged 6.2 IPs per start in 2004, which was 1 out less than Schilling, and 2 outs more than Clement, the guy brought in to help replace him.

On the site I write for, I predicted that Pedro would win the NL CY (though it hasn't been posted yet). Watching his first outing, it looks like he may have a pretty outstanding year.

[mgadfly]

Nevermind

[Mr. Wednesday]

Well, it will certainly help him to mostly get away from the Yankees and I think completely get away from the Orioles -- both teams seemed to have figured him out in the last year or so.

In negotations, I think Theo got caught short by the escalation in the market this offseason.

[CentralMassHokie]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

A good way to compare is using ERA+

Maddux:
1992 - 166
1993 - 171
1994 - 273
1995 - 259

Pedro:
1997 - 221
1998 - 160
1999 - 245
2000 - 285

I'd give the edge to Pedro, but not by a lot.

This is a great comparison - Maddux and Pedro had the two best stretches of any pitchers, probably dating back to the dead ball era.

I'd actually give a hefty edge to Pedro, solely based on the fact that offense was up pretty extensively in the late 90s, and ERA+ isn't era-adjusted. If you look at BP's DT cards for both Maddux and Pedro, using the era-adjusted numbers for PRAA (pitcher-only runs above average), Maddux had his best years in '94 and '95 at 52 and 56 runs above average. Pedro's back to back seasons in '99 and '00 are 57 and 64!

For reference, Koufax's best season was '66, at 62 PRAA.

The best season I can find on record is Walter Johnson in '13 at a whopping 87 PRAA, though it's hard to compare 1913 to the 1990s.

[CentralMassHokie]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

Well, it will certainly help him to mostly get away from the Yankees and I think completely get away from the Orioles -- both teams seemed to have figured him out in the last year or so.

In negotations, I think Theo got caught short by the escalation in the market this offseason.

That's absolutely correct. Which is why he ended up paying astronomical sums for Varitek and Renteria.

I really didn't love Boston's offseason. I still think my boys are going to win the AL East, but that's only because the Yankees had a worse offseason.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

ERA+ compares earned runs adjusting for era and park factors. So it's simply one stat. It takes into account other stats to normalize ERA, which in itself is a combination of Earned Runs and Innings Pitched.

It's like saying there is more to hitting than one stat in refering to OPS+. True, but OPS+ includes many stats.

We've already played this game before. I thought the consensus that no one was happy with is that you can't just use a rate stat but that it is a decent single metric.

SI

[timmynausea]

I'd agree that Maddux and Pedro both had their extraordinarily dominant eras, but neither were head and shoulders above Randy Johnson over the past several years (aside from the year he was injured.) I point this out just because some people are saying best since Koufax or even best since deadball and etc. I mean, you might say that Randy Johnson from 1999-2002 comes in third after those two, but he's not far enough behind to be completely left out of the discussion, in my opinion.

[CentralMassHokie]

I looked at Johnson. He's been fantastic, but never reached the levels of Maddux or Pedro. Johnson's best PRAA season was 2002 at 52; his second best, 50 in 1997.

He's been very good (generally over 40 PRAA when healthy) for a very long time, but his peak just isn't as high as either Pedro or Maddux.

Cumulative PRAA:
97-00 Pedro: 209
63-66 Koufax: 203
92-95 Maddux: 192
99-02 Randy: 187

For reference,
12-15 W. Johnson: 273

As I mentioned before, even if you attempt to adjust for all-time, as PRAA does, you still can't compare apples to apples. The game was just too different.

[st.cronin]

One thing to keep in mind regarding Pedro vs. Maddux is that Maddux has consistently had good to very good defenses behind him. Pedro, being much more of a strikeout pitcher, pretty much makes the defense irrelevant.

It may be a small thing, but I'll take Pedro over Maddux.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by CentralMassHokie

The original Boston Herald article was a complete hackjob by a paper that is pretty much become a tabloid. The headline talked about Pedro ripping Theo, then you read the article and the worst thing he said was that he just disagreed with the way the organization handled negotiations.

The Herald needed to do something to spice things up in a city that barely reads it. Become a tabloid. Become conservative. Something...

[Castlerock]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

The Herald needed to do something to spice things up in a city that barely reads it. Become a tabloid. Become conservative. Something...

On my way home from work, there is always a guy handing out free Heralds. I never take one. It's still over-priced.

[CentralMassHokie]

The Herald is a joke.

The Globe Spots section is rapidly approaching that level, especially since they've got the online relationship with the Boston Dirt Dog, who's the worst thing to hit the Boston sports scene in a long time.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by CentralMassHokie

The Herald is a joke.

The Globe Spots section is rapidly approaching that level, especially since they've got the online relationship with the Boston Dirt Dog, who's the worst thing to hit the Boston sports scene in a long time.

The negativity in this town sucks.

I actually don't mind the Herald. The format makes up for much. I love the sports starting in the back and the size of it. Globe is a pain with all the folding.

[Swaggs]

Where does Clemens fit into this? He had a few years in Toronto that were unbelievable.