What Should We Do? (Serious Problem)

[Blackadar]

Ok, I'm going to try and give the Cliff's Notes version. I could literally write a book about my in-laws, but no one would believe it.

It's a situation revolving around my Wife's sister and her husband - I'll call them Dick and Jane. They have an 8 year old daughter - I'll call her Sallly.

Jane has recently (about 3 months ago) committed child abuse with a 16 year old foster child staying in their home. She then tried to kill herself and was hospitalized. She hasn't been charged by the police and it looked like the matter was going to get swept under the rug. Now a letter has surfaced (post-suicide attempt, written in March) which incriminates her further - it's no longer a he said/she said scenario.

Dick is pretty abusive - not physically, but mentally he's a real piece of work. He also wants to quit his job so he can go on the road as a sound man for a Christian rock band, so if he has his way he won't be around as much. The other problem is that he was accused of abuse back when he was Youth Minister of another church. It was swept under the rug, too - though he had to resign and leave that church. Again, there was no hard evidence and the cops weren't called. Now he's thinking of filing for divorce and custody. I really fear for the child (Sally) - she's 8 and with no Mom there, I can really see an abusive situation taking place.

The Mother-In-Law just recently divorced her husband and married his cousin. She's not a bad person, but she's manic/depressive and that's the whole environment that created this kind of thing. I know...my wife has had to work through some major issues.

Sally is left at M-I-L's house 3, 4 and even 5 days at a time with no notice from her parents (Dick and Jane). There seems to be very little affection between the parents and the kid. She's "home schooled" as well.

I am not close to my wife's family (for obvious reasons). I have a 5 year old Son and we're about 2 hours away from them (within the same state). It's a horrid situation. I not sure what - if anything - we should/can do.

Most of this is just venting, but if anyone has any good advice, feel free to share. Just a couple of other facts:

1. Dick probably would not want to give up Sally, especially if my wife asked. He once told her that he "married the wrong sister" and has tried to hit on her before (and been rebuffed).

2. If Sally went to public school, I'd talk to her principal. But she doesn't, so...

3. I could call Social Services, but I'm really afraid that may make things worse. Jane could go to jail - and maybe she deserves to, if she doesn't go to the hospital for mental treatment - and if Dick gets Sally alone, I feel the chances of sexual abuse are 50/50.

4. I would talk to their pastor, but he's supporting Dick (who makes nice-nice in the Church when he's not being accused of fondling 13 year old girls) and I'm not of the same religion.

I have no idea what to do...there's probably nothing I can do, and I feel so fucking helpless while this kid has her life destroyed.

[Raiders Army]

There are so many other variables out there, but from my point of view, if you know about the situation and do nothing, you are almost as much to blame as the ones who perform the acts. Depending on your situation, you might want to call Child Protective Services to see what they can do or see if they offer any advice.

[gstelmack]

That just sucks. I agree that as an outside parent, your options are limited here. But I'm hoping some of the other people on the board that deal more with these types of situations (SkyDog?) will have better advice. Sally, the 8-year-old, really deserves better than all of this.

[NoMyths]

If you put her odds at being sexually abused at 50/50, you absolutely need to involve Social Services, and/or seriously consider trying to gain custody of the child

[Karlifornia]

Geez, man. Sorry to hear about this situation. It's tough, but I feel that you have to get the child out of this situation any way possible. You may think that you're going to damage the child more by getting the parents as far removed as possible, but it's really worth it in the long run. The kid is going to grow up never knowing right from wrong otherwise.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

If you put her odds at being sexually abused at 50/50, you absolutely need to involve Social Services, and/or seriously consider trying to gain custody of the child

FYI, Social Services was notified when the abuse of the foster kid happened - and they haven't done a damn thing.

[Raiders Army]

I repeat, call Child Protective Services. Each state should have a website, and your report is confidential and is not subject to public release under the Open Records Act. The law provides for immunity from civil or criminal liability for innocent persons who report even unfounded suspicions, as long as your report is made in good faith. Your identity is kept confidential.

[Flasch186]

take in the kid. As of right now, on this path, her ENTIRE LIFE will be ruined. SO, what do you do? I say take in the kid and tell the parents that if they try to take her back you will absolutely let them....with the exposure of EVERYTHING that will come too. Perhaps then they'll undertsand that the kid needs to be raised in a stable environment.

perhaps its not that easy, but in my brain it is.

[gottimd]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Sally, the 8-year-old, really deserves better than all of this.

Indeed she does and this is a horrible situation. Its one thing to ruin your own life by making decisions. but to bring your kid down with you is absolutely nuts. So by calling Social Services, the one thing that is holding you back, is that you will get your S-I-L in trouble? I have never dealt with or heard of a situation like this, but would it be at all possible, if by some random chance, they both agreed to let Sally "go", for you and your wife to become her legal guardians, as it seems you have your head on straight. You would do this, in this instance, if I understand you correctly?

[Franklinnoble]

What sort of church does this Dick go to? (nice choice of pseudonyms, by the way)

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

take in the kid. As of right now, on this path, her ENTIRE LIFE will be ruined. SO, what do you do? I say take in the kid and tell the parents that if they try to take her back you will absolutely let them....with the exposure of EVERYTHING that will come too. Perhaps then they'll undertsand that the kid needs to be raised in a stable environment.

perhaps its not that easy, but in my brain it is.

WHAT?!? Kidnap the child? Uh, no - I'm not going to jail.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

What sort of church does this Dick go to? (nice choice of pseudonyms, by the way)

Southern Baptist / Baptist.

Also, everyone needs to remember that Social Services has already been involved. They aren't doing a damn thing - not even on the existing child abuse claim (which can be proved).

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Jane has recently (about 3 months ago) committed child abuse with a 16 year old foster child staying in their home. She then tried to kill herself and was hospitalized. She hasn't been charged by the police and it looked like the matter was going to get swept under the rug. Now a letter has surfaced (post-suicide attempt, written in March) which incriminates her further - it's no longer a he said/she said scenario.

After thinking about this for a second, I don't understand this part. The letter incriminates her abuse actions?

Also, do you have any evidence of what you think will happen? In my mind, if you do not, then it will be impossible to take the child away from her guardians. Sadly, the abuse will have to occur in order to take her away, especially if her parents (Dick) fight against it.

I understand your frustration and it sucks, but these things were put in place for a reason.

[wbatl1]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

WHAT?!? Kidnap the child? Uh, no - I'm not going to jail.

Well, at least you could have your car color and license plate on those cool boards above the highway

In all seriousness, this situation sucks. Is there anyone else related that you could go to to help you with whatever your action is?

[albionmoonlight]

If you do work out some "arrangement" wherin you take the child, make sure that you get legal custody. An "understanding" won't mean much if the biological parents come back into the picture in a couple of years.

I also agree that you need to call the state agency. They have their problems, but it is better than kidnapping the kid (illegal) and doing nothing.

I, too, am interested in what SkyDog has to say.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by wbatl1

Well, at least you could have your car color and license plate on those cool boards above the highway

In all seriousness, this situation sucks. Is there anyone else related that you could go to to help you with whatever your action is?

I'm not close to that side of the family at all. Again, for obvious reasons. There's not a single one that I feel I could "trust". There's a couple of decent people, but no one that I would count on to watch my back.

My wife is a bit different since she's "blood". But even then, I don't see anyone else beyond this little group able to exert any influence on the situation.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

What part about the "State Agency already involved and have done nothing" is everyone missing? I haven't called them personally...but I don't have any hard evidence at all.

What "State Agency?" There are a bunch of different State Agencies, just like there are a bunch of social services. Also, just trying to help.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

If you do work out some "arrangement" wherin you take the child, make sure that you get legal custody. An "understanding" won't mean much if the biological parents come back into the picture in a couple of years.

I also agree that you need to call the state agency. They have their problems, but it is better than kidnapping the kid (illegal) and doing nothing.

I, too, am interested in what SkyDog has to say.

What part about the "State Agency already involved and have done nothing" is everyone missing? I haven't called them personally...but I don't have any hard evidence at all. And no, I don't know if it's Social Services or Child Protection Services who has been contacted. I've never needed either so I tend to use them interchangably - which agency do foster kids come from?

I was thinking about finding their former church and contacting the pastor there - especially if Dick tries to file for divorce/custody. But many of these churches would rather just sweep things under the rug. After all, if Dick truly did commit child abuse and the pastor just let him walk away, he could be vulnerable to losing his job or getting sued. So I don't expect any help there, either.

[WrongWay]

Tell me about Dick's parents? My money would be on them to actually end up taking care of her.

Stick your head in the sand and Put your ear to the ground and watch this unfold. The Divorce will end in a Very nasting Custody hearing. This will completely devide parents and grandparents as they toss insults and accusations in court. In the end Dick will get majority custody with jane having visits. Dick will go on the road to tour with the band and leave Sally at home with his parents.

[wishbone]

My personal opinion is that issues should be resolved first by the family, then the church (where applicable, which is rare) then the government(generally least effective at being proactive). You have exhausted the first two and tried the third it sounds like. Your best bet is in developing a relationship with Sally and her family so that you are the natural choice to take custody when Dick goes to prison and Jane isn't able to cae for Sally. This way Sally knows life can be different and when the inevitable happens, there will be more relief than trauma.

If that's not possible, you may just have to watch as her life continues to spiral and try to help pick up the pieces later.

just my 2 cents

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by WrongWay

Tell me about Dick's parents? My money would be on them to actually end up taking care of her.

Stick your head in the sand and Put your ear to the ground and watch this unfold. The Divorce will end in a Very nasting Custody hearing. This will completely devide parents and grandparents as they toss insults and accusations in court. In the end Dick will get majority custody with jane having visits. Dick will go on the road to tour with the band and leave Sally at home with his parents.

Dick's Mom kicked him out when he was 15. Then he came to live with the M-I-L and met Jane there. Yes, it's almost incestual....

She just moved away (out of State). They are living in her old house. She's a weird old woman and I don't have any contact with her.

[stkelly52]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Southern Baptist / Baptist.

Also, everyone needs to remember that Social Services has already been involved. They aren't doing a damn thing - not even on the existing child abuse claim (which can be proved).

If they havn't done anything, then call again. And then call again. Then talk to their neighbors and see if you can get them to call again. Don't stop until the they finally get off of thier butt and does something. My siblings grew up in an abusive foster home. Someone called once, and then gave up. I wish that the person who reposrted it would have been willing to keep at it until something changed.

[Blackadar]

The only thing I can think of is to have the M-I-L start applying pressure to both Dick and Jane to give up Sally...with us as the natural choice.

Don't get me wrong. Sally is a good kid and all, but I'm not trying to "find" a daughter. I would take her in because she's related and she needs a good home and parents. I wouldn't feel resentment by taking her in, but it's not my goal in life.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by stkelly52

If they havn't done anything, then call again. And then call again. Then talk to their neighbors and see if you can get them to call again. Don't stop until the they finally get off of thier butt and does something. My siblings grew up in an abusive foster home. Someone called once, and then gave up. I wish that the person who reposrted it would have been willing to keep at it until something changed.

I probably should start (and keep) calling. Though with no hard evidence against Dick, it may make the situation far worse. I don't think he's abusing her now...without Jane around, it becomes a more likely scenario.

Oh, and the whole family (besides us) lives down the same dirt road...there are really no "non family" neighbors.

[Bee]

Just because social services haven't done anything to date doesn't mean contacting them is a waste of time. The more information they have on file, the better (especially when coming from various sources).

The other thing I didn't understand in your original post was this:

3. I could call Social Services, but I'm really afraid that may make things worse. Sally could go to jail - and maybe she deserves to, if she doesn't go to the hospital for mental treatment - and if Dick gets Sally alone, I feel the chances of sexual abuse are 50/50.

Why would the 8 year old go to jail? Or are you referring to the mother...Jane?

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Bee

Just because social services haven't done anything to date doesn't mean contacting them is a waste of time. The more information they have on file, the better (especially when coming from various sources).

The other thing I didn't understand in your original post was this:



Why would the 8 year old go to jail? Or are you referring to the mother...Jane?

Yea, sorry. Corrected the original post. Thx.

[Blackadar]

Finally, just to give you an idea of some of the In-Laws subjects I've had to deal with in almost 15 years of marriage...

Without getting into too much detail, naming names or anything else, we're talking physical violence, manic-depression, verbal abuse, intermarital infidelity (like screwing your daughter's husband - NOT ME!), child sexual abuse, bible thumping, attempted suicides, successful suicides, kidnapping, shooting other relatives, axing (no, that's not a misprint) other relatives and more.

Again, I'm not making any of that up, but I don't wish to disclose any details. It's too damned depressing.

[Franklinnoble]

What state do these people live in?

This is some backwater shit going on... If you have the means, hire an attorney. That might get results with CPS.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Finally, just to give you an idea of some of the In-Laws subjects I've had to deal with in almost 15 years of marriage...

Without getting into too much detail, naming names or anything else, we're talking physical violence, manic-depression, verbal abuse, intermarital infidelity (like screwing your daughter's husband - NOT ME!), child sexual abuse, bible thumping, attempted suicides, successful suicides, kidnapping, shooting other relatives, axing (no, that's not a misprint) other relatives and more.

Again, I'm not making any of that up, but I don't wish to disclose any details. It's too damned depressing.

can i get the movie rights?

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Finally, just to give you an idea of some of the In-Laws subjects I've had to deal with in almost 15 years of marriage...

Without getting into too much detail, naming names or anything else, we're talking physical violence, manic-depression, verbal abuse, intermarital infidelity (like screwing your daughter's husband - NOT ME!), child sexual abuse, bible thumping, attempted suicides, successful suicides, kidnapping, shooting other relatives, axing (no, that's not a misprint) other relatives and more.

Again, I'm not making any of that up, but I don't wish to disclose any details. It's too damned depressing.

In my family, it took a couple of years and constant Children and Family Services calls to finally get custody awy from my sister, but it finally did happen. The charges you are talking about are much worse than that situation, so it might not take as long. As others have said, make the calls and apply the pressure. Other than that, prayer and being there to do what you can is the limit of what you can do.

[Peregrine]

Tough situation. Some friends of mine had a very similar situation, with their in-laws family basically disintegrating because of drug use, prison, child abuse allegations, etc. In that case they ended up taking in and adopting the two kids (teenagers) in that family, though I'm pretty sure it was with the family's consent. If there's not consent, it makes it a lot harder. I think you definitely need to get involved if you can, but you don't want to crack up the situation worse. I'd get involved with any other relatives (MIL, etc) to try to present a united front if you can, that might help.

[General Mike]

shoot em all and let God sort em out.

[dawgfan]

Just to reiterate what stkelly52 and Bee have already said, keep calling CPS (or whichever state agency handles child protective services) again and again until they do something, and encourage your wife to do so as well and as often as possible.

It sucks, but the fact is that in many (if not all) CPS departments around the country the people working there are swamped by an overload of cases and the nature of the job combined with severe overwork results in rapid burnout and a revolving door of people working the job, so you have a mess of frequently over-burdened and inexperienced people manning these jobs.

I feel for your situation Blackie - your poor niece is in an awful situation. Like others have said, if you're 50% convinced that her dad will sexually abuse her, that right there is enough to do everything you can legally to get Sally out of that household. This situation is exactly why CPS agencies were created, and you need to hound them until they take action.

[MacroGuru]

I had the same Dilemna as you...but with one of my cousins.

My Aunt was an alcoholic as was her husband. He had also been reported on sexual abuse by the oldest cousin. (3 of them to this family, all girls)

The oldest seperated herself from the family completely, the other one ran away, and the youngest was left at home to dad's mercies.

My mom called Child Services, and continued to call....it took a while, but finally, somone went in, interviewed the youngest, and had her removed from the home.

My grandfather took her in for a bit, but the state said he was getting to old to take care of her, and she cycled through the system, but ended up back at the house...So she ran away.

State got involved again, and that point in time, I was was 25 years old, with a 3 year old daughter and a newborn son being asked to take in a 12 year old girl. I was going to do it, however, I figured I would get the oldest sister involved.

I called and hunted down the oldest sister. Talked to her about what I was going to do, and the oldest sister took it upon her to take her in.

Honestly, report it non stop to Department of Family and Child Services and just keep hounding them.

It's a big leap to raise someone elses child, but if you do, I admire you more than anything.

[sachmo71]

I have to agree with the calling Family Protective Services and give them all you know. Ignoring it won't fix it, and stepping in personally can cause all sorts of problems. Good luck, Blackie.


EDIT: The only thing you might try is to see if he will let her come stay with you guys for a while. Maybe if she's away from him, she might feel like talking to someone and maybe provide evidence to open a case against him. Bah...just a bad situation.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

I have to agree with the calling Family Protective Services and give them all you know. Ignoring it won't fix it, and stepping in personally can cause all sorts of problems. Good luck, Blackie.


EDIT: The only thing you might try is to see if he will let her come stay with you guys for a while. Maybe if she's away from him, she might feel like talking to someone and maybe provide evidence to open a case against him. Bah...just a bad situation.

Sachmo...I knew I liked you for a reason.

Actually, that's what my wife and I are trying to do...get her to come and stay for a couple of weeks while this whole thing gets settled.

My wife is also trying to get her M-I-L to present a united front.

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Sachmo...I knew I liked you for a reason.

Actually, that's what my wife and I are trying to do...get her to come and stay for a couple of weeks while this whole thing gets settled.

My wife is also trying to get her M-I-L to present a united front.

That sounds good, but I would personally try to keep it on the innocent side...make it seem like you are trying to do him a favor, or even that he is doing you a favor by letting her come stay with you. My concern with adding the M-I-L to the equation is that he may feel attacked, and go defensive. Maybe hold her in reserve? The bottom line is getting that girl out of there.

On a lighter note, thanks for the kind words.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Actually, that's what my wife and I are trying to do...get her to come and stay for a couple of weeks while this whole thing gets settled.

My wife is also trying to get her M-I-L to present a united front.

Outstanding - I hope it works out.

[Blackadar]

Thanks for the advice...I sort of put my foot down with my wife a few minutes ago.

I told her to tell the M-I-L that either she gets on board - NOW - and helps resolve the situation or I'm going to start calling DSS/Child Protection next week.

[RealDeal]

Flame away, but it is simply tragicomical to seek advice for an intimate family matter on a football text sim discussion board between threads on the merits of cat hunting and nfl draft predictions.

There are plenty of sites out there with serious people who actually know something about the serious issues you are raising. If you look at the history of this board, it's pretty clear that those serious, knowledgeable people are not here.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by RealDeal

Flame away, but it is simply tragicomical to seek advice for an intimate family matter on a football text sim discussion board between threads on the merits of cat hunting and nfl draft predictions.

There are plenty of sites out there with serious people who actually know something about the serious issues you are raising. If you look at the history of this board, it's pretty clear that those serious, knowledgeable people are not here.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by RealDeal

Flame away, but it is simply tragicomical to seek advice for an intimate family matter on a football text sim discussion board between threads on the merits of cat hunting and nfl draft predictions.

There are plenty of sites out there with serious people who actually know something about the serious issues you are raising. If you look at the history of this board, it's pretty clear that those serious, knowledgeable people are not here.

You're entitled to your opinion.

However, I've been part of this community since...1998? 1999? 2000? It's changed over the years, but in all my web-travels, I've found some of the most serious and intelligent people on the web here - on this board. Even if I don't always agree with them. There are a few outright morons too - who won't post on this thread or I already have on ignore.

Frankly, I trust the judgment of some of the people here more than most anyone else. It's been shown that judgment (and advice) to be sound time and time again. You have 200 posts since 2002. I've probably had 8,000-10,000 in the various incarnations of the Sideline and FOFC. I'd venture that I have much more experience evaluating the advice given here more than you.

However, you may be right - this may also need to be posted on a board devoted to such topics to perhaps get more "professional" advice.

[Ben E Lou]

Yeah, CPS offices generally suck. I've dealt with them more than once. If you actually want to make something happen (and are willing to go through some messy-ness to get there), the key is this: FIND DICK'S ABUSE VICTIM--not the church, the actual victim. If you can do that, then your path is clear. After finding the abuse victim:

1. Get Dick's abuse victim on the record with CPS, but better yet, the police.
2. Get ahold of the proof that exists of Jane's abuse, and take that to the police first, CPS second.
3. Get copies of the police investigations of Dick and Jane to CPS.
4. The three steps above should get Dick and Jane removed from the picture eventually, and open up custody of Sally to extended family. From what you've told us, you and your wife should be clear winners in the custody battle, if there even is one.

The situation sucks for Sally as it is, and the resolution will suck too. Being sexually abused by her father would be much, much worse, though. It could get messy. Grandma might put up a fight.

[RealDeal]

My apologies. I didn't realize that 10K posts on this board was evidence of good judgment. Carry on.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Yeah, CPS offices generally suck. I've dealt with them more than once. If you actually want to make something happen (and are willing to go through some messy-ness to get there), the key is this: FIND DICK'S ABUSE VICTIM--not the church, the actual victim. If you can do that, then your path is clear. After finding the abuse victim:

1. Get Dick's abuse victim on the record with CPS, but better yet, the police.
2. Get ahold of the proof that exists of Jane's abuse, and take that to the police first, CPS second.
3. Get copies of the police investigations of Dick and Jane to CPS.
4. The three steps above should get Dick and Jane removed from the picture eventually, and open up custody of Sally to extended family. From what you've told us, you and your wife should be clear winners in the custody battle, if there even is one.

The situation sucks for Sally as it is, and the resolution will suck too. Being sexually abused by her father would be much, much worse, though. It could get messy. Grandma might put up a fight.

I don't know how to find Dick's abuse victim. We don't even know the name nor location of the Church...never mind the name of the pastor at the time (who probably wouldn't give me any info). Probably the only way will be through Jane, if Dick decides to leave her. She might have it....or at least some contacts.

Unless you have some other idea on how to find Dick's alleged victim?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

I don't know how to find Dick's abuse victim. We don't even know the name nor location of the Church...never mind the name of the pastor at the time (who probably wouldn't give me any info). Probably the only way will be through Jane, if Dick decides to leave her. She might have it....or at least some contacts.

Unless you have some other idea on how to find Dick's alleged victim?

Hmmmm...without knowing the name or location of the church, it would be very, very difficult. You might feel dirty doing it (since you'd probably have to end up turning Jane in later on), but I guess Jane is your only "easy" option. The other option might be to steer a conversation with Dick in the direction you want it to go. If you volunteer with the Boy Scouts or any youth organization, you could ask him for "advice on some good group activities for kids" or something, then casually ask, "Hey, where were you a youth pastor, anyway?" If he was a youth pastor, the pastor probably won't talk, but I'll pretty much *guarantee* you that someone who felt "burned" when he resigned will talk.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by RealDeal

My apologies. I didn't realize that 10K posts on this board was evidence of good judgment. Carry on.

Not judgment...experience. Regarding the intelligence level of the board members here, I have vastly more experience regarding their judgment.

Your point about posting elsewhere is a good one. Your point about the users here isn't. Don't confuse the two.

[Subby]

Just wait til you hear noop's advice...

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Your point about posting elsewhere is a good one. Your point about the users here isn't. Don't confuse the two.

Agreed. This group generally knows when to be serious and when not to be serious, and don't take the fact that 99% of the time nothing serious is going on as evidence that we CAN'T be serious that other 1%. And there is a wealth of experience on this board as we're a pretty diverse group (as evidenced by all the political threads )

[Ben E Lou]

Question for Blacky:

Have you checked to see if your wife knows where he was a youth pastor? I'd be a little surprised if your wife didn't know that sort of detail about her sister's husband.