Atlanta Braves: Hall of Fame Discussion

[Easy Mac]

Since the original was an unequivocal success, this will continue for about the next 29 nights, more or less.

I'll give a poll of the 3 players I think are most likely to make the Hall of Fame. Of course, some (most) teams won't come close to the criteria for the hall, so most of the time it will be the 3 best career on the team. It should be an interesting discussion for some teams, pretty boring for others (See AZ). Also, as an added bonus, I may occasionally do more than 1 set of 3 players for a team. Very rare, there may be a couple of teams who have more than 3 guys who could be hall-worthy. So here we go. The poll choices will hopefully be obvious, but who knows.

John Smoltz: The one guy on the team who looks like he currently has at least a 50% chance of getting in. It all depends on how the next few years go. Had he continued to be a closer for the next 2-3 years, I would have said he's practically a lock for the hall. Currently retired from the bullpen and back in the rotation, he's currently on 170 wins and 154 saves. He's 38 years old, and he's got about 1 more season's worth of good baseball. I think he'll end up with about 20-25 more wins. In order for him to have even a realistic shot, he'd have to get either 200 wins or 200 saves, but preferably both. Missing 2000 and most of 2001 didn't help his chances, but without that injury ,he probably wouldn't be in this discussion. Unfortunately it looks like he'll stay out of the pen at all costs, so I doubt he'll make the hall. Add in the fact that he was often seen as the 3rd wheel of the Braves pitching throughout the 90's.

One thing that he has going for him is that he's a big game pitcher. He's got a career postseason ERA of 2.70 and a 14-4 record with 4 saves for a perennial underachieving playoff team. He's won a Cy Young, threw a gem of a game in game 7 of the World Series (only beaten by his idol Jack Morris). Plus he's the only non-trader of the big 3 pitchers.

I dunno, here I'll say fairly unlikely to make the Hall without a change of heart and being a closer, but I may vote yes just because I can't hate on my boy.

Chipper Jones: Arguably the best 3rd baseman of the last decade (we all saw what happened to Vinny C. after he left Coors), He should get in for fathering illegitmate children and withstanding drunk New Yorkers chanting Larry. Alas, the last year has been rough on old Chip. I think he would have had a very decent argument if he hadn't gotten bit by the injury bug, but it looks like that will be the norm for him from here on out. I think he's had a hall worthy career in my opinion, but I don't think it will last. He has a .303 average with 317 HR and a .937 OPS for his career. He has the whole MVP and bane of New York thing going for him though, so that can't hurt. I also think his D has gotten a bad rap and will adversely affect him. He was pretty much a feast or famine fielder, making the more difficult routing and the routine more difficult.

If he could somehow regain his health in the next 5-6 years, he's in the hall. That would put him around 400-450 home runs, over .300 average. I don't know if that will happen. Right now, if injuries continue to be a problem, I'd say No Hall... but in his prime he was the best real third baseman of the last 15 years... that has to count for something.

Andruw Jones: Sometime in the past month, something has clicked for this Jones. I don't know if he's finally matured or what, but I'll take it. He's looking to set a career high in HR, and he's just 28, so he has a few more years ahead of him. If he reaches 50 HR this year, he'll be sitting on 300 at the age of 28. Assuming he's in his prime now, and he'll play at least 9 more seasons (the length of time it took him to get to 300), he's looking at a Troy Glaus-like 600 HR. Very doubtful he'll get near there, but one can dream. He's also got a rep as one of the best fielders in the league. While most contend he's always been overrated, I actually think its the other way around. Center just always came easy to him. He's twice the fielder other "great" centers like Edmonds are. And while a smile won't get you into the hall, he's always smiling through the whole game.

Now the bad. He doesn't hit for average... he strikes out... he has no eye for the ball... he often plays like he doesn't give a damn. While he broke onto the scene in the 96 WS, he never has stepped up in a game that matters the past few years. Baseball reference compares him to Ruben Sierra at this age.

I think if he's finally figured out how to hit, and his fielding doesn't drop greatly, he has the best chance of the Braves to get into the Hall. If this season is just a fluke, then there is no chance. Right now, I'd say No Hall, but ask again in 3 and you may get a new answer.

Too soon:
Tim Hudson not likely unless he pulls of a Maddux-like string of 15 win seasons. A very fine pitcher, but I just don't see it happening. Julio Franco, just because I like throwing his name out every chance I get, and for the sheer freak of nature he is.

In Conclusion:
I still don't know how I'll vote. Unless the stars align pefectly, I don't know if any of the 3 will get in. I'd like to see them all, just so I can see more than just Maddux and Glavine in the hall from the 90's Braves... those are the 2 I don't want in. My mind says No hall for all, but I may vote for at least 1 of them.

Your thoughts.

[Karlifornia]

I think Andruw Jones has the talent to get there.

[Easy Mac]

He has the talent, but he's wasted so much of it. He was such a 5-tool player coming up... he should have put A-Rod to shame.

[Eaglesfan27]

I don't think any of them make it. You outlined the reasons very well. Smoltz just doesn't quite have the numbers. I think this is a fluke season for Andruw Jones and I expect to him revert to his previous pattern. Chipper could do it if he could somehow remain healthy.

[TLK]

Only Smoltz deserves to go.... one of the others might sneak in.

[Arles]

Andruw started so young, he will probably hit the magic number of HRs. He's averaged about 30 HRs a season and at 28, has 271. If he plays to 36 or 37, he will probably hit 500 HRs and 3000 hits - so he's in the Hall barring injury. I don't think Chipper will, because of his injuries. Smoltz has 170 wins, 154 saves and 2480 Ks. if he gets to 200 wins, I expect he will make it as well.

I just realized I voted yes for all three - when I really meant to vote for just Andruw and Smoltz.

[KWhit]

I think Smoltz makes it. Chipper & Andruw - no.

(And obviously Glavine and Maddux make it, but they're not Braves any more).

[Easy Mac]

Its always sad when you watch these guys while growing up, and you realize as good as they were, they aren't as great as they were. Good old Chuck Liebrandt, Steve Avery, Pendleton, Nixon, Galar(sp?)...

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by Arles

Andruw started so young, he will probably hit the magic number of HRs. He's averaged about 30 HRs a season and at 28, has 271. If he plays to 36 or 37, he will probably hit 500 HRs and 3000 hits - so he's in the Hall barring injury. I don't think Chipper will, because of his injuries. Smoltz has 170 wins, 154 saves and 2480 Ks. if he gets to 200 wins, I expect he will make it as well.

I just realized I voted yes for all three - when I really meant to vote for just Andruw and Smoltz.

I'll balance it by voting for Smoltz and Andruw.

[Easy Mac]

I also found it cool how the announcers were talking about Smoltz passing Jack Morris on the career strikeout list a couple of days ago, and how Morris was Smoltz's idol growing up... to think they went on to pitch arguably the greatest pitching game 7 in World Series history.... dammit this team this year deserves to be in the playoffs.

I'll be like a Red Sox's fan when we miss the playoffs... once the impossible happens, I won't know what to do.

[Draft Dodger]

I like Smoltz, but I just don't see it. Only cracked the 15 win point twice. The closer thing is cool, but he's nowhere near what Eckersley did. And your going to hear the "he wasn't even the best (or 2nd best) starter on his own team most years" argument a lot.

I think Chipper can do it, but he's going to need to be pushing 500 homers to get it, not at all a given.

Gut instinct says Andruw tires of the game long before he accumulates the numbers he needs to get in.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

... to think they went on to pitch arguably the greatest pitching game 7 in World Series history....

I still think that game does not get anywhere near enough credit among Great Games of All-Time. Dear lord, if the Yankees and Red Sox ever played a ten-inning, 1-0 game seven we would never hear the end of it (and the pitcher who went the distance for the shutout win would have been flown directly to Cooperstown by helicopter immediately after the game).

[clintl]

I think Chipper has the best chance of the three. Third base is an underrepresented position in the Hall, and I think Chipper's numbers stack up decently with those that are already there. Andruw Jones is no better as a hitter than Chili Davis was, and his defense isn't enough to bridge the gap needed to get to the Hall. Smoltz hasn't won enough games. Maybe if he can get to 225-230 wins, he'll have a chance.

[Easy Mac]

Smoltz won't get close. He's 38, will probably win 8-10 more this year, which would put him around 180. He'd need 45-50 more wins, that just won't happen.

[RendeR]

These three guys aren't even the best players the Braves have had, no way any of them reach the Hall of Fame.

[Neuqua]

Why the dislike for Glavine and Maddux?

[Logan]

I think Smoltz gets in primarily due to public perception making him a better pitcher than he actually is.

[ntndeacon]

I don't think Smotlz gets in, even with his time as a closer. I think to even get many votes he is at minimum going to need 200 wins. So many pitchers have over 200 wins though and are not thought Hall worthy. I can see him hanging on the ballot 5-8 years, but eventually fading off.
Chipper is a different story. Of the 3 mentioned, I think his credentials are the best. Someone mentioned that 3B is underrepresented. This is true, but the last couple that got in at the position, were such studs, it is going to make it hard on 3B to qualify. If he gets another 50 Hrs i think he is in.
Andruw has been a solid not great hitter for some time. but I think that his defensive prowess buys him a little leeway in terms of his final stats. I don't think the strikeouts are that big of a deal for him. Thereare a lot of members who struck out a lot. He does need to perform in some big games. (I am convinced that Homer in the WS got Fisk in)
So I say the Jones boys get in.

[timmynausea]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

Its always sad when you watch these guys while growing up, and you realize as good as they were, they aren't as great as they were. Good old Chuck Liebrandt, Steve Avery, Pendleton, Nixon, Galar(sp?)...

Don't forget Jeff Blauser. It's hard to believe Terry Pendleton won an MVP award. I sort of forgot about him. Ron Gant was my favorite out of the early 90's Braves.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by Neuqua

Why the dislike for Glavine and Maddux?

Glavine: A trader... you don't go to the division rival for a million or 2 more dollars... he was a PA whore and deserves the sucktitude he's had in NY.

Maddux: Once a Cub, always a Cub.

[braves31074]

Quit being such stat heads. Smoltz is a shoo-in. The guy has been a dominant starter and a dominant closer for 15 years. Of the Big 3, he is the only one who has retained the stuff he had in his 20s. Maddux is a HOFer but clearly isn't the same guy he was 10 years ago. Glavine is probably in, but he's at the end of his rope. Smoltz is still good for 15 wins a year. He's always had the best stuff of the three, as well. And, he's the best post season pitcher of the three. Andruw and Chipper have a lot of work to do to get in. Smoltz is in. Why should it matter if he gets to 200 wins? That's just a number. Besides, eh would been way over 200 wins if he'd a stayed a starter. He shouldn't be penalized because he went to a closer's role. Fifteen years of dominance is plenty.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by braves31074

Quit being such stat heads. Smoltz is a shoo-in. The guy has been a dominant starter and a dominant closer for 15 years. Of the Big 3, he is the only one who has retained the stuff he had in his 20s. Maddux is a HOFer but clearly isn't the same guy he was 10 years ago. Glavine is probably in, but he's at the end of his rope. Smoltz is still good for 15 wins a year. He's always had the best stuff of the three, as well. And, he's the best post season pitcher of the three. Andruw and Chipper have a lot of work to do to get in. Smoltz is in. Why should it matter if he gets to 200 wins? That's just a number. Besides, eh would been way over 200 wins if he'd a stayed a starter. He shouldn't be penalized because he went to a closer's role. Fifteen years of dominance is plenty.

yeah, I can totally see where Smoltz would get in over Glavine. Who cares about the extra 100 wins...

[ISiddiqui]

If Smoltz gets in, it is by the skin of his teeth. Glavine would get in far easier. It ain't about being stat heads, but recognizing that Glavine was the better pitcher. Smoltz may get pushed over for his closer role. If he stayed a starter, I don't think he would have made it.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

If Smoltz gets in, it is by the skin of his teeth. Glavine would get in far easier. It ain't about being stat heads, but recognizing that Glavine was the better pitcher. Smoltz may get pushed over for his closer role. If he stayed a starter, I don't think he would have made it.

If you took out 2002-2004 (not counting 01 - as he was injured) and replaced each of those season closing with an average year of his starting (14 wins, 190Ks), Smollz would have 207 wins and 2750 Ks had he not closed. Given how he started this season, it's very plausible that he would have ended 2005 with 215 wins and 2850 Ks. At which point, he would be in great shape for the hall - even if he didn't plan to play another 2-3 seasons (like he plans). I think if he ends up with 200 wins (30 more) and 2750 Ks (270 more) that he's a cinch given his 154 saves.

Plus, I would think dominating in two different aspects of the game as a pitcher (starting and closing) would get you slightly more noteriety than just being great at one.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I am going with Smoltz here. Back in the day when I had a beard I had an uncanny resemblence to John Smoltz. We looked so much alike that my mom happened to catch a Brave's game on TV some how and was so shocked at the resemblence that she had to call me to tell me about it and how it looked like I was pitching out there.

Anyway, based on that assessement, John Smoltz is clearly the handsomest man in baseball and is just far too pretty NOT to be in the Hall of Fame.

[Young Drachma]

Andruw Jones needs a change of scenary. He's been in Atlanta too long.

[TazFTW]

Julio Franco, Hall of Famer.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by TazFTW

Julio Franco, Hall of Famer.

If he plays until he's 50, he still won't get 3,000 hits..but you have to marvel at his ability to play this long.

Players like him, are the reason baseball needs a Hall of Fame and then a Hall of Distinction for fan favourites and other players that aren't quite HoF worthy in the same way.

[Buzzbee]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

If he plays until he's 50

Dude. He's already 50.

[Lathum]

I think one glaring mark that will be held over all there heads is the fact that they only won 1 world series, thats the kind of thing people remember. Unless they win another title there will be alot of "yeah they were all great players, but"

[RealDeal]

Andruw will get in because he started so young that even with only slightly above average performance he will end up with big career numbers.

[wbatl1]

Originally Posted by Buzzbee

Dude. He's already 50.

Today (or tomarrow) is his birthday, or what he claims is his birthday. He is supposably 47.

[clintl]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I think one glaring mark that will be held over all there heads is the fact that they only won 1 world series, thats the kind of thing people remember. Unless they win another title there will be alot of "yeah they were all great players, but"

That's not going to matter. Post season success can maybe push borderline players in, but lack of post season success is not going to be a blemish that keeps a player out. For an example, the Giants of the '60s had five future Hall of Famers on the roster at the same time for most of the decade.

[Ramzavail]

Jones is awesome, he will go.

Id like to see Smoltz go but I dont think he will.

Larry, screw him.

[Crapshoot]

None, though Smoltz has a reasonable arguement - and Jones could be. The problem with Jones is everyone expected him to be the next Willie Mays (hell, he was probably better defensively), and his failure to become the best as opposed to very good might hurt him.

[Barkeep49]

As long as this is bumped I think the Cox and Shurholtz are two other likely HOF from the current Braves.

[Crapshoot]

dola- that was referring to Andrew, not Chipper (though I admit I detest Chipper).

[Crapshoot]

Good point. Bobby Cox is probably the best manager of the last 50 years- far better than the overly hyped LaRussa.