Are botched call wins tainted in the minds of their fans?

[panerd]

I was just watching an interview with George Brett on the Saint Louis news and they brought up the 1985 World Series where Don Denkinger made an awful call in favor of the Royals which most Cardinal fans say cost us the world series. And it got me to thinking about how screwed I still feel about the game and how a lifelong Royal fan may not feel it was as honorable a victory as it would have been if they had won without the call. Can anyone explain the other side? I am talking about officaiting errors not Buckner type plays, which are definitely part of the game.

FYI: The reason this sits so close to home to me is not only have I been on the losing end of the '85 World Series but I have also watched my Mizzou Tiger football team get screwed by a 5th down and a kicked ball in two of the most infamous games of college football history?

Any Colorado Fans? Nebraska fans? Stanford fans? Marlins fans? That can explain the winning side?

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by panerd

I was just watching an interview with George Brett on the Saint Louis news and they brought up the 1985 World Series where Don Denkinger made an awful call in favor of the Royals which most Cardinal fans say cost us the world series. And it got me to thinking about how screwed I still feel about the game and how a lifelong Royal fan may not feel it was as honorable a victory as it would have been if they had won without the call. Can anyone explain the other side? I am talking about officaiting errors not Buckner type plays, which are definitely part of the game.

FYI: The reason this sits so close to home to me is not only have I been on the losing end of the '85 World Series but I have also watched my Mizzou Tiger football team get screwed by a 5th down and a kicked ball in two of the most infamous games of college football history?

Any Colorado Fans? Nebraska fans? Stanford fans? Marlins fans? That can explain the winning side?

Why Marlins fans?

[panerd]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Why Marlins fans?

Probably more Yankee fans with the Jeffrey Meier catch or the Knoblach missed tag, but I couldn't think of those off the top of my head. I said the Marlins because of the Bartman catch which most outsiders (not Cubs fans or Marlins fans) tend to agree probably cost the Cubs their confidence and the playoffs that year.

[Radii]

That stuff is part of the game. I don't feel bad when my team wins a game b/c of a blunder and I don't feel bad when my team loses a game b/c of a blunder. Not any better or worse than normal at least. That includes Bartman and the Cubs. It hurts like hell because of how close the Cubs came before losing, and thinking about that foul ball is a part of it, but would it not be as bad if that hadn't happened? I seriously don't believe so.

Though not bad calls, my favorite team in any sport, UNC basketball, has two national titles that were iced by mental mistakes by the opponent in the closing seconds. I'm still immensely proud of those two titles and can't imagine it'd be better if Michigan had put up a shot and missed instead of having Weber call the time out. And if Michigan had scored and won I don't think it'd feel worse knowing that the ref let Weber drag his pivot foot about 10 feet before he dribbled either.

[JimboJ]

I think the team that gets shafted by the call tends to dwell on it much more than the team that benefits from it. The team that benefits from it probably considers it just one step in the road to their championship, whereas the team that gets screwed considers it the one thing that prevented them from winning it all.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by panerd

I was just watching an interview with George Brett on the Saint Louis news and they brought up the 1985 World Series where Don Denkinger made an awful call in favor of the Royals which most Cardinal fans say cost us the world series. And it got me to thinking about how screwed I still feel about the game and how a lifelong Royal fan may not feel it was as honorable a victory as it would have been if they had won without the call.

Ahem. Here in Kansas City, we find it utterly fascinating that St. Louis fans seem to forget that Jorge Orta, who reached base on the aforementioned botched call, was thrown out on a failed sacrifice bunt and the REAL reason the Royals rally persisted was Jack Clark dropping an easy pop foul that gave the Royals an extra out. Oh, yeah, then there was this pesky thing called game seven. When winners are on the wrong side of a bad break, they pull together and overcome in. When winners are give a break in their favor, they pounce on it and take full advantage. The Royals took advantage, the Cardinals imploded like cry babies, witness Herzog's meltdown, John Tudor injuring himself beating up an electric fan and Walking Underwear taking a bat to a toilet when he got his ass handed to him in game seven with the whole thing on the line.

I guess what I'm saying is ... no, that wasn't a hollow victory. That was a bad call, but it wasn't the deciding factor. The Cardinals had plenty of opportunities to win following the call and they puked on every one of them.

Panerd, we can set aside our Royals-Cards rivalry and commisserate about our Tigers. I've pretty much accepted the Nebraska loss; it was a fluke more than a bad call. No matter what that Husker twerp says, he didn't kick the ball on purpose; he wasn't that good or that bright. It was a horrible break, but it shouldn't undermine what was a tremendous effort by Corby and the gang against the eventual national champs.

The Colorad game ... totally different. If I ever get the chance to kick Bill McCartney's ass, I'm taking. Rather than take the high road, that bastard has maintained for years that Colorado "deserved" the fifth down because the field was in bad shape. Please. IT WAS ASTRO TURF!!! What more do you want? I hate the Promise Keepers organization because McCartney is a big wig in that outfit and if they have a guy like that in the operation, it can't be very Christian. That was a correctable error. I'd like to think that if my team received a horrible benefit like that I would support a measure to correct it. The big difference between that and the Denkinger call is that there was no way for Missouri to recover. There was no second chance. That was the last play of the game.

In my mind, Missouri won that game and I have the t-shirt to prove it.

[Hammer755]

If I were a Marlins fan, I would feel worse about Eric Gregg's generous strike zone than I would Steve Bartman. Either way, I'm sure neither of their World Series wins taste any less sweet because of the way they got them.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by panerd

I said the Marlins because of the Bartman catch which most outsiders (not Cubs fans or Marlins fans) tend to agree probably cost the Cubs their confidence and the playoffs that year.

They do? I thought only Cubs fans were the ones to use that as an excuse.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by VPI97

They do? I thought only Cubs fans were the ones to use that as an excuse.

I honestly don't know of any Cubs fans that use this as an excuse. I hope this is largely an ESPN creation. Alex Gonzalez's error and Dusty Baker in general are much much more to blame for that game...

[Ragone]

You know if jack clark hadn't dropped that pop fly.. that call never would have happened.. so nah!

[Leonidas]

Lots of folks think Ohio State's win over Miami in the Fiesta Bowl was tainted, but as a Bucks fan I feel more lousy about Maurice Clarett than the interference call in that game. I thought it was the right call at the time and I have seen pictures since clearly showing the contact while the ball is in the air. And considering the fact OSU was supposed to be so "overrated" and Miami was just going to wipe the floor with them, which clearly did not happen, I do not feel that loss was dishonorable.

[CraigSca]

Jeffrey Maier. Hate that kid.