Regarding looting - Katrina

[Crapshoot]

Dola,
found this on another board- probably nothing, but interesting. Here we have two people "looting" or "finding" - from the same place. Why is one "looting" while the other is "finding" ?

http://news.yahoo.com/photo/050830/p...hxwaoma_photo1

http://news.yahoo.com/photo/050830/4...10208301530%3E

[Butter]

Considering the flood waters, perhaps they were just swimming around and happened to "find" the grocery store in a location that was unexpected.

I got nothin'.

[SackAttack]

It got mentioned here, too, I think. If I had to guess? The goods involved in the "finding" are essential to survival, while those involved in the "looting" aren't.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Dola,found this on another board-

Very likely because one is an AP photo/captioning, the other is AFP/Getty photo/captioning. I see where you're trying to go, but it doesn't really wash since different organizations have different rules/policies/standard form for this sort of thing.

And, since we're in a different thread, I don't feel nearly as much restraint about saying what I really think -- I think there's definitely a racial aspect to the coverage, if there wasn't, I believe it would be a getting MUCH more play in the national media. I believe it's consciously being downplayed in order to avoid exactly the insinuation you wanted to make.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Very likely because one is an AP photo/captioning, the other is AFP/Getty photo/captioning. I see where you're trying to go, but it doesn't really wash since different organizations have different rules/policies/standard form for this sort of thing.

And, since we're in a different thread, I don't feel nearly as much restraint about saying what I really think -- I think there's definitely a racial aspect to the coverage, if there wasn't, I believe it would be a getting MUCH more play in the national media. I believe it's consciously being downplayed in order to avoid exactly the insinuation you wanted to make.

Interesting. I thought about that jon - didnt know if different people had captioned it, though I guess that's likely. Do you want to expound on what you mean regarding the racial aspect ? Do you think they're downplaying it because the pictures we've seen are black, or are you coming at it from the other side ?

[WSUCougar]

Virtually all of the media images I have seen that - in my mind - represent looting involve black people. In some cases, joyous-looking individuals hauling off stuff that has no bearing on their survival or basic needs.

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

Virtually all of the media images I have seen that - in my mind - represent looting involve black people. In some cases, joyous-looking individuals hauling off stuff that has no bearing on their survival or basic needs.

Interesting thing about one of the looting videos that I saw...it was a loop. They showed the same 20 second clip three times with no sound. then they showed about 5 smaller clips in a row, and repeated them 3 times. I wasn't sure why, unless they were still editing it, but I thought it interesting.

And the old white guy outside was funny.

[Masked]

The population of New Orleans is about 2/3 black, 1/3 white. The wealth distribution is skewed in the opposite direction.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Interesting. I thought about that jon - didnt know if different people had captioned it, though I guess that's likely. Do you want to expound on what you mean regarding the racial aspect ? Do you think they're downplaying it because the pictures we've seen are black, or are you coming at it from the other side ?

Yes, I think the story is being downplayed & we're getting fewer images of it because many of the pictures would be of black looters.

But this is a city that is 67% black (as of 2000 Census) so the numbers would tend to dictate a higher number of black faces in any sort of photo taken in New Orleans before or after the storm.

But I don't believe that's how the media powers-that-be think the images would be perceived nor, in at least some cases, do I think they want to have to acknowledge that there's actually some minorities involved in the looting.

[Joe Canadian]

I'm glad someone brought this up... it's been pissing me off all day. I'm sorry but Katrina hit my city and I have no food, water, etc... and thats the only way to get it I'm going to go out "looting."

I understand that the areas affected have a higher percentage of black people living in them, and that probably accounts for what we're seeing on TV. But the media has been saying all day that these people have nothing, and that starvation and dehydration is going to be a huge problem, and at the same time put some negative conotation on this. It's called survival... and if we were seeing white people do this it would be called that.

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

I understand that the areas affected have a higher percentage of black people living in them, and that probably accounts for what we're seeing on TV. But the media has been saying all day that these people have nothing, and that starvation and dehydration is going to be a huge problem, and at the same time put some negative conotation on this. It's called survival... and if we were seeing white people do this it would be called that.

Unfortunately, much of the footage I have seen has very little to do with "survival" and has everything to do with taking advantage of a tragic disaster to make off with loot.

[jbmagic]

what bothers me is seeing some people just getting candy only on the footage.


i think its best for the Miltary to handle the food and water situations in an organized fashion.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

I'm glad someone brought this up... it's been pissing me off all day. I'm sorry but Katrina hit my city and I have no food, water, etc... and thats the only way to get it I'm going to go out "looting."

I understand that the areas affected have a higher percentage of black people living in them, and that probably accounts for what we're seeing on TV. But the media has been saying all day that these people have nothing, and that starvation and dehydration is going to be a huge problem, and at the same time put some negative conotation on this. It's called survival... and if we were seeing white people do this it would be called that.

I'm not sure you've read the other Katrina thread. It's been brought up there and basically it was what was talked about above. People stealing food and water- no one had any real problems with. It was the people stealing clothes (no, not dry clothes, dragging them through the water), electronics, jewelry, etc that people were having real problems with.

SI

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

I'm glad someone brought this up... it's been pissing me off all day. I'm sorry but Katrina hit my city and I have no food, water, etc... and thats the only way to get it I'm going to go out "looting."

I understand that the areas affected have a higher percentage of black people living in them, and that probably accounts for what we're seeing on TV. But the media has been saying all day that these people have nothing, and that starvation and dehydration is going to be a huge problem, and at the same time put some negative conotation on this. It's called survival... and if we were seeing white people do this it would be called that.

Joe, the looting began less than 24 hours after the storm hit ... starvation doesn't start that quick. This is opportunism, plain & simple.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Joe, the looting began less than 24 hours after the storm hit ... starvation doesn't start that quick. This is opportunism, plain & simple.

You haven't seen my fridge. I'd be screwed in 24 hours too...

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

You haven't seen my fridge. I'd be screwed in 24 hours too...

Remember, a former president declared ketchup a vegetable, so don't exaggerate!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

You haven't seen my fridge. I'd be screwed in 24 hours too...

Although I know you were shooting for humor (and my fridge is about the same), it's worth noting here that there's a difference between not having food on hand and "starving". That thread about the amputee mountain climber a couple of weeks ago caused me to run across something on survival that talked about (IIRC) the rule of three's: you can survive 3 hours without adequate temperature protection, 3 days without water, and 3 weeks without food.

That's why I have no hesitation to call bullshit on the whole "poor starving people" routine.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Although I know you were shooting for humor (and my fridge is about the same), it's worth noting here that there's a difference between not having food on hand and "starving". That thread about the amputee mountain climber a couple of weeks ago caused me to run across something on survival that talked about (IIRC) the rule of three's: you can survive 3 hours without adequate temperature protection, 3 days without water, and 3 weeks without food.

That's why I have no hesitation to call bullshit on the whole "poor starving people" routine.

Fair enough, Jon...

[cartman]

What I don't understand are the carjackings in downtown New Orleans. Where the hell do they think they are going to be able to go?

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

That's why I have no hesitation to call bullshit on the whole "poor starving people" routine.

I hear you.

But given the circumstances I still can understand somebody foraging for food/drink supplies. That's going into a preservation mode, and if I were in that situation I'd probably be doing the same thing. Shelter + food + water. Whether I theoretically could live without those or not, I'd be doing what I could to secure them.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

But given the circumstances I still can understand somebody foraging for food/drink supplies. That's going into a preservation mode, and if I were in that situation I'd probably be doing the same thing. Shelter + food + water. Whether I theoretically could live without those or not, I'd be doing what I could to secure them.

Agreed. As was pointed out in the other thread, look the other way on people collecting food and water, but be harsh on those running off with luxury items.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

Interesting thing about one of the looting videos that I saw...it was a loop. They showed the same 20 second clip three times with no sound. then they showed about 5 smaller clips in a row, and repeated them 3 times. I wasn't sure why, unless they were still editing it, but I thought it interesting

Yeah..I saw that one too. Very odd.

[sabotai]

Anyone else catch the video they just showed of looting on Countdown? There were a couple of police officers looting! (I think I know 2 cops who will be losing their jobs)

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Anyone else catch the video they just showed of looting on Countdown? There were a couple of police officers looting! (I think I know 2 cops who will be losing their jobs)

I hope the Martial Law order and the order to stop looters via any means necessary applies to those two cops.


Edit: The above post assumes they weren't acting in the good of the public and acquiring items that they needed to do their job (which they have the power to do.)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Anyone else catch the video they just showed of looting on Countdown? There were a couple of police officers looting! (I think I know 2 cops who will be losing their jobs)

Looting? Or could it have been one of the "authorized to commandeer" (sp?) missions? Could you tell what they were taking/where it was being taken from?

I ask because there's a reference in some of the most recent articles to the New Orleans police chief having to personally shoo away would-be looters as a group of police were taking needed supplies for the rescue teams from an Office Depot.

That gives me the impression that the amount of stuff being taken for official use is more than we might expect/think of.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Looting? Or could it have been one of the "authorized to commandeer" (sp?) missions? Could you tell what they were taking/where it was being taken from?

It was a Wal-Mart. They were taking shoes when the reporter found them, but they had a shopping cart of stuff. Here's basically how the conversation went with the cop (only one spoke back) and the reporter.

*Reporting walks up to 2 cops who are pushing a shopping cart*
Reporter: How's it going? What are you taking? Shoes?
*one cop stops and turns away, the other one stops taking something off of the shelf and starts to walk away. The second speaks.*
Cop: My job (as she's walking away)
Reporter: What is that?
Cop: Stopping looters.
Reporter: Well there's looters over there. Why not do something about them?
Cop: There's nothing I can do.

And that was the end of the cop segment of their looter footage.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by sabotai

And that was the end of the cop segment of their looter footage.

Thanks Sab, I didn't see it, didn't have any idea what was actually shown.
FWIW, what you describe sounds a helluva lot more like "personal use" than
anything else.

[dawgfan]

The most recent CNN web report talks about some looters doing so in front of police - being allowed to take shoes, but only if they fit. I'm not sure why this would be considered OK by the police - I guess the justification is the looters may not have any non-soaked/ruined footware and so getting new shoes is OK as it makes it easier for them to get around as needed to evacuate?

I can completely understand looting for food, water and needed drugs and I can see arguments for looting clothes, rafts/boats and other general supplies for helping others. But those looting for items clearly not intended to help them survive this ordeal have crossed a big line. The question I have for them is, how much good will it do them? Everyone is supposed to evacuated anyway, most homes it sounds like are damaged and/or uninhabitable - do these people think they're going to camp out with their loot and hang on to it until things stabilize?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

do these people think they're going to camp out with their loot and hang on to it until things stabilize?

They probably do. They're in survival mode. I doubt that they've spent much time considering the long-term ramifications. They see a DVD player, and think, "this is worth something," when in reality, they probably won't be able to carry it with them when/if they're evacuated, and it'll likely be months before they can pawn it in New Orleans.

[Young Drachma]

It's annoying to see the looting and the racial aspect makes it worse, obviously. But I dunno that there is any real excuse for risking your life to go steal a DVD player from Wal-Mart. Retards.

[Loren]

yeah it all really sucks, the racial aspect i probably wouldnt have even considered, since i know there's a large african american population in NO..EXCEPT that since this is all being shown on the news, our kid saw it, she's almost 6 and yeah she noticed right off that everyone in that Walgreens was black and commented on it..so we had to address that, with the "bad ppl come in every color" speech me and her were just there beginning of the month soo we alked by that store and remembers it so its kinda freaky. She especially wasnt very happy seeing the kids looting
Course she's been yelling at the tv since she saw the ppl lined up at the superdome the other nite, smiling and waving at the cameras...something bout it being a DISASTER and they shouldnt BE HAPPY
I hadnt heard about the looting cops..i heard one who said he'd just assume shoot all the looters and stick a sticker on them saying looter and leave them there dead...and the kid who the female cop grabbed looting and he was swinging at her was pretty damn sad..

[Wolfpack]

I don't think the racial aspect will seriously take hold until something on the order of a crackdown on the lawlessness happens. If that does, I do expect someone somewhere to complain that there was some sort of racial motivation in any sort of heavy-handedness. Until that happens, it feels like the topic is the elephant in the room. Everyone sees it but no one wants to say anything about it because that would make things worse than they already are. I do think it partly explains the different reactions between Governor Barbour in Mississippi who has been virtually quoted as saying looters will be shot on sight, and Governor Blanco of Louisiana who hasn't been particularly adamant about the looting problem until just recently.

[Buccaneer]

Which is why the martial law will not have much teeth to it, despite all of the chest-pounding words coming from the mayor since Sunday. The black civil rights leaders will not allow martial law to really to take effect because they know who the targets will be. And the governor will not do anything more because you can't have whitey oppressing the blacks.

As someone said earlier, reputation (and perceptions) overrule integrity and common sense.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

It's annoying to see the looting and the racial aspect makes it worse, obviously. But I dunno that there is any real excuse for risking your life to go steal a DVD player from Wal-Mart. Retards.

This is an interesting editorial from the NYT talking about the racial/political aspects following this, and prior, natural disasters.

The Storm After the Storm

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By DAVID BROOKS
Published: September 1, 2005
Hurricanes come in two waves. First comes the rainstorm, and then comes what the historian John Barry calls the "human storm" - the recriminations, the political conflict and the battle over compensation. Floods wash away the surface of society, the settled way things have been done. They expose the underlying power structures, the injustices, the patterns of corruption and the unacknowledged inequalities. When you look back over the meteorological turbulence in this nation's history, it's striking how often political turbulence followed.

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In 1889 in Pennsylvania, a great flood washed away much of Johnstown. The water's crushing destruction sounded to one person like a "lot of horses grinding oats." Witnesses watched hundreds of people trapped on a burning bridge, forced to choose between burning to death or throwing themselves into the churning waters to drown.

The flood was so abnormal that the country seemed to have trouble grasping what had happened. The national media were filled with wild exaggerations and fabrications: stories of rivers dammed with corpses, of children who died while playing ring-around-the-rosy and who were found with their hands still clasped and with smiles still on their faces.

Prejudices were let loose. Hungarians then were akin to today's illegal Mexican immigrants - hard-working people who took jobs no one else wanted. Newspapers carried accounts of gangs of Hungarian men cutting off dead women's fingers to steal their rings. "Drunken Hungarians, Dancing, Singing, Cursing and Fighting Amid the Ruins" a New York Herald headline blared.

Then, as David McCullough notes in "The Johnstown Flood," public fury turned on the Pittsburgh millionaires whose club's fishing pond had emptied on the town. The Chicago Herald depicted the millionaires as Roman aristocrats, seeking pleasure while the poor died like beasts in the Coliseum.

Even before the flood, public resentment was building against the newly rich industrialists. Protests were growing against the trusts, against industrialization and against the new concentrations of wealth. The Johnstown flood crystallized popular anger, for the fishing club was indeed partly to blame. Public reaction to the disaster helped set the stage for the progressive movement and the trust-busting that was to come.

In 1900, another great storm hit the U.S., killing over 6,000 people in Galveston, Tex. The storm exposed racial animosities, for this time stories (equally false) swept through the press accusing blacks of cutting off the fingers of corpses to steal wedding rings. The devastation ended Galveston's chance to beat out Houston as Texas' leading port.

Then in 1927, the great Mississippi flood rumbled down upon New Orleans. As Barry writes in his account, "Rising Tide," the disaster ripped the veil off the genteel, feudal relations between whites and blacks, and revealed the festering iniquities. Blacks were rounded up into work camps and held by armed guards. They were prevented from leaving as the waters rose. A steamer, the Capitol, played "Bye Bye Blackbird" as it sailed away. The racist violence that followed the floods helped persuade many blacks to move north.

Civic leaders intentionally flooded poor and middle-class areas to ease the water's pressure on the city, and then reneged on promises to compensate those whose homes were destroyed. That helped fuel the populist anger that led to Huey Long's success. Across the country people demanded that the federal government get involved in disaster relief, helping to set the stage for the New Deal. The local civic elite turned insular and reactionary, and New Orleans never really recovered its preflood vibrancy.

We'd like to think that the stories of hurricanes and floods are always stories of people rallying together to give aid and comfort. And, indeed, each of America's great floods has prompted a popular response both generous and inspiring. But floods are also civic examinations. Amid all the stories that recur with every disaster - tales of sudden death and miraculous survival, the displacement and the disease - there is also the testing.

Civic arrangements work or they fail. Leaders are found worthy or wanting. What's happening in New Orleans and Mississippi today is a human tragedy. But take a close look at the people you see wandering, devastated, around New Orleans: they are predominantly black and poor. The political disturbances are still to come.

[JonInMiddleGA]

snippets are from http://apnews.myway.com//article/200...D8CBHQ7G0.html

At least seven bodies were scattered outside, and hungry, desperate people who were tired of waiting broke through the steel doors to a food service entrance and began pushing out pallets of water and juice and whatever else they could find.

Inadequate control on the part of those in charge of the supplies. It's food, so I'll stop short of shoot to kill as an initial reponse, but there is ZERO way this should have been able to happen. Whoever was in charge of those supplies (no idea if that's civilian, federal, state, local, whoever) fucked up.

An old man in a chaise lounge lay dead in a grassy median as hungry babies wailed around him. Around the corner, an elderly woman lay dead in her wheelchair, covered up by a blanket, and another body lay beside her wrapped in a sheet.

"I don't treat my dog like that," 47-year-old Daniel Edwards said as he pointed at the woman in the wheelchair. "I buried my dog." He added: "You can do everything for other countries but you can't do nothing for your own people. You can go overseas with the military but you can't get them down here."

Okay, I'm running out of patience with the stupid. Hey, you fucking idiot -- where exactly do you propose they bury them? You can't generally bury people in New Orleans under normal conditions, how in the hell do you propose to do it now.

"They've been teasing us with buses for four days," Edwards said.

And you'd have a helluva lot better chance of being on one of those buses if your charming neighbors would quit starting fires & shooting at the people trying to help you.

"We need an effort of 9-11 proportions," former New Orleans Mayor Marc Morial, now president of the Urban League, said on NBC's "Today" show. "So many of the people who did not evacuate, could not evacuate for whatever reason. They are people who are African-American mostly but not completely, and people who were of little or limited economic means. They are the folks, we've got to get them out of there."

Will the next clueless dipshit with a sound bite please step forward. Hey Marc, guess what, NYC wasn't freakin' underwater. Y'think maybe it was a little easier to get the manpower & materials in there because of that?

Sorry, but the increased intensity of the complainers seems to have heightened my awareness of how many utterly clueless people are able to get camera time in situations like these.

edited: to fix a typo & a formatting error

[JonInMiddleGA]

Photo caption from the AJC right now

RENEGADE BUS: A man, driving a bus he acquired in New Orleans, delivers a group of refugees to the Astrodome today.

What the caption doesn't show is that the bus is that familiar orangey-yellow color & is clearly labeled "School Bus".

I can't help but wonder how he "acquired" it. IF it is indeed a school bus, then it appears likely that he stole it(since this was an unauthorized "mission") and taking government property during a disaster is generally frowned upon. Alas, I have little doubt that he'll get a free pass on that. I'm critical of that because that's a short step from taking a bus being used by those trying to get people out in an organized manner.

[Crapshoot]

JOn, given the apparent law and order breakdown, and given that these are probably the poorest people (who stayed in the city), can you blame them for trying to get out when everyone (actually, most everyone) has the means has done so already ?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

JOn, given the apparent law and order breakdown, and given that these are probably the poorest people (who stayed in the city), can you blame them for trying to get out when everyone (actually, most everyone) has the means has done so already ?

I blame them for behaving in a criminal manner, and particuarly in a criminal manner that affects the very resources that are needed to save the largest number of people possible, yes sir, you're damned skippy I do.

[stevew]

When are they gonna break out the Blackhawks?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by stevew

When are they gonna break out the Blackhawks?

Whenever it is, it's later than it should have been.

[Anthony]

i hope everyone is going off on the people who are looting non-essential items, like electronics. i fail to see the reason for this animosity if it's also being directed at people stealing items to survive, like food and clothing. there's a clear difference.

[albionmoonlight]

Leaving aside the important issue of how to best deal with the looters, does anyone have a sense of if we are going to. From what I can see, nothing is being done.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

i hope everyone is going off on the people who are looting non-essential items, like electronics. i fail to see the reason for this animosity if it's also being directed at people stealing items to survive, like food and clothing. there's a clear difference.

Well, it's only been mentioned at least 4 times in this thread and a bunch more in the other thread. Glad you read before posting.

http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~fof/foru...3&postcount=13
http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~fof/foru...5&postcount=20
http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~fof/foru...2&postcount=21
http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~fof/foru...3&postcount=28

SI

[Anthony]

ok, by Jon's comments it didn't seem like he was descriminating between thieves and those trying to survive.

[cartman]

Those of us on the outside have had the benefit of receiving regular news updates. From all accounts, the people left behind in New Orleans have almost no access to any kind of news or info. If I was there and wasn't told anything and had no way of getting info, I would start to think that I was abandoned and would have to fend for myself after three days of those conditions.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by cartman

I would start to think that I was abandoned and would have to fend for myself after three days of those conditions.

"abondoned"? isn't that a bit extreme?

if anything, one, without access to news and seeing a lack of prompt results, could start to think perhaps they fell on the lower end of the priority scale, sure - i can see the logic there. but to say "woe is us, all hope is lost forever!!" and to start dressing in animal skins and hunt prey with spears...

[Wolfpack]

I would also think they'd realize they aren't "abandoned" per se, simply because they have to be seeing all the helicopters, boats, cameramen, reporters, etc. Now, they may feel that it's taking entirely too long to get help and therefore they have to act, but I don't think they believe they're abandoned.

[Blackadar]

Seriously, the police have started looting too.

[cartman]

I guess abandoned wasn't quite the right word to use.

In the absence of info, people usually tend to assume the worst. We know that the helicopters are news helicopters, but how do the people on the ground know that? They might think they are relief copters, and wonder why they aren't stopping to help, or dropping anything to them. If you'd been stuck on your roof or in your attic for several days with no human contact, other than a copter flying by or a boat a few blocks away, and the water that isn't dropping in level at all, there would be hope starting to be lost.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

ok, by Jon's comments it didn't seem like he was descriminating between thieves and those trying to survive.

I'm not nearly as discriminating in my beliefs about the best & most appropriate way to deal with looters as many who are posting in the thread.