Sometimes my job can be very frustrating.

[Ben E Lou]

...but you have to find a way to see the positive.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ben Lewis [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:27 PM
To: 'Matt Christian'; 'Jeff Jones'; 'Ginny Dempsey'; 'Ernie Forrester'
Cc: 'Bill and Leigh Bigger'; 'Scot Sherman'; 'First Baptist Tucker'; 'Robert Browning'
Subject: you four deserve an award

Matt, Jeff and Ginny:

I'm in the process of putting together an e-mail to various youth pastors in the community regarding an idea I have for better connecting my WyldLife kids to local churches, and so I pulled out my old list from the meeting we had at Patti Rioux's house, just two years ago. There were 12 church youth workers at that meeting. You are the only three who remain in that role in the same place. Further research reveals that of the 18 youth pastors in the Lakeside and Tucker communities that we invited to come that night, only four remain. (Ernie Forrester at Smokerise Baptist, who is also receiving this e-mail, is the fourth, and this e-mail is definitely for you too, Ernie. You couldn't be there that night, but you've been there for kids, which is far more important.)

I just wanted to take a moment to say a great, big THANK YOU for being consistent with kids. I really appreciate it, and each of you. I don't have to tell any of you how important it is for kids to have a Christ-centered adult involved in their lives for a significant period of time.

I've also copied the pastors of your churches on this e-mail, in hopes that they recognize and appreciate what a great and unfortunately-unique gift you are to the youth of your churches. (I didn't have an e-mail for Don, so FBCT, I sent this to the "office" link. Please pass it on to him so Jeff doesn't have to do it himself.) Pastors, feel free to pass this along to the parents of your youth the next time they're complaining about this that or the other regarding their youth pastor.

Press on!

--Ben

[Anthony]

say what you want about religion and its shortcomings in a modern world, but if this is the good that comes out of it - as it should - then indeed there is a place for it.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

say what you want about religion and its shortcomings in a modern world, but if this is the good that comes out of it - as it should - then indeed there is a place for it.

I'm not sure I follow you there. I was just venting. I knew that turnover among youth workers was bad, but I'd never quantified it in my community before a few minutes ago. The e-mail was the only way I could think of to slightly redeem the situation.

[Raiders Army]

I'm not sure what you expected, but IMHO three out of twelve isn't a bad ratio of people to commit to something. Also, four out of eighteen is somewhat in line with that. I'd say the results are average.

What were the time commitments associated with this volunteer work?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

I'm not sure what you expected, but IMHO three out of twelve isn't a bad ratio of people to commit to something. Also, four out of eighteen is somewhat in line with that. I'd say the results are average.

What were the time commitments associated with this volunteer work?

It isn't volunteer work. Those were eighteen full or part-time workers (mostly full-time)--in a field where you are supposedly called. That's pretty lousy, if you ask me.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

It isn't volunteer work. Those were eighteen full or part-time workers (mostly full-time)--in a field where you are supposedly called. That's pretty lousy, if you ask me.

Ouch! Then I'd say it's pretty bad...I assumed it was volunteer work.

Well, you have the effect. What's the cause? I'd ask the people who left why did they leave. Is it them or is it the kids or is it a combination of both? Once you find out the root cause, maybe you can fix the problem. My two cents.

Oh, and I wouldn't assume you know the answer either.

[Buzzbee]

Seems like "why?" might be a valid question. Why is the turnover so high? People get burned out? Better opportunities? Not what they expected? Moved to different areas?

Since these were paid positions, rather than volunteer, it seems like it may have been more of a 'job' than a 'calling.'

[Ajaxab]

I think your area probably wouldn't be the only one struggling to retain church youth leaders. Part of the blame has to fall to our consumer culture, a culture that encourages parents of teens to complain to their youth leader that the group isn't exciting enough or doesn't do enough trips or....It strikes me that the problem isn't the stress of dealing with the kids, but rather with the parents of these kids. One of my friends was a church youth leader for a few years and the kinds of things parents would say to him would leave me incredulous sometimes. I'm glad you took the time to thank those who have stuck around, SD.

[Anthony]

i was commending those indidiviuals who've soldiered on in a mostly underrated field - youth outreach. while it's a shame the retention rate of volunteers is low, i agree it's good to put a spotlight on the positive and to pat the backs of those who've stuck with it.

my comment about religion was to say despite all the negative things you read about religion and such - when you get people who dedicate themselves to mentoring our youth and seeing the impact that youth pastors can have on their community then indeed there is a place for religion. it's nice to read some positive stories about what religion can lead people to do. i understand you were lamenting the loss of the volunteers, i was just stating that i'm happy to read about people who care and it's nice to read about religion when it isn't dividing people or bashing non-believers.

edit: ahhhh, they aren't volunteers. got it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Strictly FWIW, I'd urge you not to let this get you down too much.
Consider this -- the turnover in my radio/tv sales reps is consistently around 1/3rd per year, some areas more like half. And those are people making what I'd estimate is somewhere between 5x & 15x what these youth group workers are getting, possibly even more in some cases.

I understand where you're coming from about how their calling should help balance that, but I'd imagine there's a certain amount of pressure coming to bear on them to balance providing for their families as well as they can vs the demands of the job.

One other factor that you may be considering but isn't mentioned here, so I'll throw it out there too -- of the 14 who have made a move, how many moved within the field?
Sometimes people are called to the same service but led to a different area to fulfill needs there.

Not faulting you at all for being concerned or even a little frustrated, just offering some points to ponder a little. And remember, it may be uphill sometimes, but the journey is worth it.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

Ouch! Then I'd say it's pretty bad...I assumed it was volunteer work.

Well, you have the effect. What's the cause? I'd ask the people who left why did they leave. Is it them or is it the kids or is it a combination of both? Once you find out the root cause, maybe you can fix the problem. My two cents.

Oh, and I wouldn't assume you know the answer either.

I don't claim to know all the answers or how to fix it, but I know that it is a common problem. I know of a few reasons, though:

• Youth pastor job seen as stepping stone to "real" job, rather than as a calling. This happens a good bit, especially with the straight-out-of-college-to-seminary people. They're 24-26 years old, have an MDiv, but most of the churches that would hire someone that young as the head pastor or even an associate are of the First Methodist of Podunkville variety, but they're young and can "relate to kids" (even though they often have no clue how to relate to wild kids) so they go to one of the several medium-sized churches in this area as youth pastor, and stay there until a better-paying youth pastor job comes along at a bigger church (and they'll leave that job once an associate or pastor position comes calling), or until an associate or senior pastor position happens. I understand that ambition, but it is horrid for the kids. An extreme example would be First United Methodist Church in Tucker. You're going to think I'm exaggerating when I say this, but since the spring of 2002, NINE different people have held the youth pastor position. I took the position in an interim role for six months while they were between people and in a serious bind. It turned out that I was there longer than five or six of the "full-time" people. That's ridiculous.
• "My kid only" attitude of parents: They've sheltered their kid, made him socially disfunctional, and now the only place he fits in is MAYBE youth group with the kids he grew up at church with. GOD FORBID a youth pastor come in and make some program churches designed to attract new kids (especially those who were raised in non-churchgoing homes). You'll mess up things for little Johnny if you do that. (Two of the guys who left FUMCT did so specifically because they got fed up with that attitude.)
• Spineless pastors: I've sat in their studies with them as they've complained to me about the "my kid only" parents, but when the rubber meets the road, they don't speak out strongly enough in support of the youth pastor's innovative ideas, and stay quiet while the big-donor parents try to run things.
• Youth pastors who see it as a "job" as opposed to a "calling." That sort of speaks to the first area I mentioned, but basically I feel like worldly ambitions have crept their way into the Church far too much.

Those are my best guesses as to why. Now, how that can be fixed, I have no clue.

FWIW, Ernie, Jeff and Matt are all in their mid-30's and older, and have been doing youth ministry since they were in their early-to-mid 20's. Same thing with my best YL volunteer, Bill. He's 39, and has volunteered with me for seven years, and was a church volunteer for eight years before that. Ginny is in her late 20's, but she looks like a long-termer, too.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Ajaxab

One of my friends was a church youth leader for a few years and the kinds of things parents would say to him would leave me incredulous sometimes.

I hear ya. Parents are one of the biggest reasons that I have very little desire to do youth ministry in a church setting.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

edit: ahhhh, they aren't volunteers. got it.

Yeah, obviously I should have made that more clear in my first post.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

One other factor that you may be considering but isn't mentioned here, so I'll throw it out there too -- of the 14 who have made a move, how many moved within the field?
Sometimes people are called to the same service but led to a different area to fulfill needs there.

Good question....going down the list...

1. Got caught in sin (intenet porn)...working in sales now, I heard.
2. Took a "step-up" job at a church in Alabama. (He was one of the 25-ish year old seminary grads who you could basically tell from the start wouldn't be in youth work for long.
3. No idea. Never returned my phone calls or letters, but his church's web site lists a new name as youth pastor.
4. Same as #2, just not Alabama.
5. No idea. Same as #3.
6. Same as #4.
7. A little different. His job was combined into one full-time-paying position: part-time youth, part-time worship leader. He really wanted to be a worship leader, and he found a church that would hire him to do that exclusively.
8. Took a different position at the same church, so he does still have some interaction with those kids.
9. See #3.
10. Got married and took a job in the "secular" world.
11. See #4.
12. See #4.
13. See #3.
14. See #3.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

working in sales now, I heard.

Figures.


Okay, irresistable joke aside, here's another point to ponder:
Looks like those "til something better comes along" workers are at least a significant part of the turnover, if not the dominant part of it.

Seems to me that a big part of the turnover problem is the hiring decisions made by the churches (which may well have been part of your point to begin with, meaning I now have a firmer grasp of the obvious).

[Ben E Lou]

BOTTOM LINE: Woody Allen was quoted as saying that 90% of life is just showing up. He couldn't be more accurate when it comes to youth ministry. Consistency is just about everything when it comes to kids.

Heh, funny. I was looking up something else to put in this post, but was stopped in my tracks by something I ran across. This says it much better than I could:

http://www.youthspecialties.com/arti...l/presence.php

The Ministry of Presence
by Steve Case

It's 9:30 p.m. You've just finished a long day. Wednesdays are your busy days; you work all day and lead the youth Bible study at night. Now there are four guys in the youth room who all came together because one of them can drive.

One kid remembers that on Wednesdays you can get a Happy Meal for 99 cents at McDonalds. They all look at you, 'cause you have a job and therefore money. So you walk into McDonalds at 9:45 and plunk down ten bucks of your own cash and fill a table with burgers, fries, and cheap plastic toys. For the next hour you talk about anything. You talk about girls. You talk about parents. You talk about God. Mostly you just listen.

That, friend, is youth ministry. Friday night you sit in the third row of a high school auditorium. One of the girls from your confirmation class is on the stage. It's the world's worst production of The Music Man. She's dressed in a house frock at the back of the crowd scene and her big solo is coming up.

"…or a double boiler."

That's it. She's done. You'd sneak out, but she's going to look for you when the cast takes their bows at the end of the show. That, friend, is youth ministry.

You have a junior high boy whose coach might possibly let him play at the end of a game, but only if the team is sufficiently ahead…and only if the coach is in a good mood. You're in the stands drinking bad coffee and cheering every time his team gets the ball.

That, friend, is youth ministry.

The Show

If you have a parking policy for the youth group,

If you have a behavioral covenant covering public displays of affection and appropriate personal music system choices,

If you have any sort of introductory course that teens must attend before they can be a part of youth activities,

If you only play the top-ten hits from the "Christian" radio station at meetings…this is not ministry.

Fifty kids playing "shuffle your buns" isn't ministry. It's fun. It gets kids laughing together in the spirit of Christian fellowship, but can we really call it ministry?

Of course there are certain parts of our ministry that are just for show. We're stuck in places that measure our success by how many kids are in the church on Sunday night. Isn't it amazing how often the people who want to see more kids in the building are the same ones who complain when those kids make a mess?

So we plan the show; we stick eight or ten students outside to be greeters. We have special youth Sundays where dozens of young people can get up and sing, preach, and play the latest composition they learned for the band contest at school. We play loud and laughing games in the youth room because we know the head of the administrative board is going to walk by after her meeting.

The Real Deal

But youth ministry occurs when there's one last kid to be picked up and you have a chance to talk about life before mom shows up in her mini-van. Ministry occurs on the youth mission trip when Nintendo-boy sees kids his own age with all their worldly possessions in shoeboxes. Ministry occurs on the retreat when a kid comes up to you after the late night worship service and says "Can I talk to you about something?"

Youth ministry occurs in the one, the quiet, the small.

When you're a teenager and your entire life changes on a day to day basis and nothing in your life is a rock solid constant, it helps to know that someone is there.

Even if some kids never come to your office or participate in those Burger Barn conversations, a lot of troubles are bearable because they know that you're there for them now and will be there for them tomorrow.

You're present in their lives. Better than that, you're a presence in their lives.

And in being there you show them that God is present too—that they're never alone.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

I don't claim to know all the answers or how to fix it, but I know that it is a common problem. I know of a few reasons, though:

• Youth pastor job seen as stepping stone to "real" job, rather than as a calling. This happens a good bit, especially with the straight-out-of-college-to-seminary people. They're 24-26 years old, have an MDiv, but most of the churches that would hire someone that young as the head pastor or even an associate are of the First Methodist of Podunkville variety, but they're young and can "relate to kids" (even though they often have no clue how to relate to wild kids) so they go to one of the several medium-sized churches in this area as youth pastor, and stay there until a better-paying youth pastor job comes along at a bigger church (and they'll leave that job once an associate or pastor position comes calling), or until an associate or senior pastor position happens. I understand that ambition, but it is horrid for the kids. An extreme example would be First United Methodist Church in Tucker. You're going to think I'm exaggerating when I say this, but since the spring of 2002, NINE different people have held the youth pastor position. I took the position in an interim role for six months while they were between people and in a serious bind. It turned out that I was there longer than five or six of the "full-time" people. That's ridiculous.

From my experience (my step-father is a UMC minister), I think this is probably the largest contributing factor. I'd add in that many times youth ministers are still in seminary or other master's program, and step into what they view as a "real" minsterial position when they graduate.


***edit to fix my apostrophe/plural embarrassment

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Seems to me that a big part of the turnover problem is the hiring decisions made by the churches (which may well have been part of your point to begin with, meaning I now have a firmer grasp of the obvious).

You may have hit on something there. Who are the most influential parents on the youth hiring committee? Probably the ones who have been there the longest in most cases. Little John Smith graduated four years ago. Little Jenny Smith graduated two years ago, and Little Joe Smith is in January of his Junior year when it is time to hire a new youth pastor at First Church of Hahira. Mama Judy Smith was first named head of the youth committee four years ago when John was a Senior. Now, she has a big part in making the decision on the new youth pastor. She doesn't give a rats patootie if the new guy/girl is gone after 18 months, 'cause Little joe will be at UGA by then anyway. Hmmmmm....

Of course, another "hiring practice" issue could be the idea of, "Summer's coming up, and we need to have a bunch of programs, so we better hire SOMEBODY!!!" I've seen that one before.

Here's the sort of thing I was looking for when I got sidetracked--a job description for a youth pastor.

http://www.ministryjobs.com/2972.asp

The highlighted thing is exactly what I was looking for. The highest priority is the "ministry of presence," building high-quality relationships with youth and their parents. That's precisely, in my opinion, what the highest priority for the job should be. However, building trusting relationships, especially with teenagers, takes time. Usually not just weeks, either, but months, and sometimes years.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by digamma

I'd add in that many times youth minister's are still in seminary or other master's program, and step into what they view as a "real" minsterial position when they graduate.

That's very true in the UMC in particular. For years, that actually was the model at FUMCT. They would hire a Candler seminarian for one or two years, knowing full well that there was no way the person would remain for more than 2 years. A certain YoungLife Area Director and the mother of a certain THS punter banned together and formed a holy alliance to get in the face of the pastor and the youth committee and got them to change THAT philosophy. (That series of meetings also led directly to me realizing that I needed to be willing to step up and be the interim youth pastor over there while they were in transition from seminarian to full-time youth pastor.)

[st.cronin]

Is it not possible to fill these positions on a contract basis, providing incentives to promote stability?

In other words - you offer somebody the position, paying x amount of dollars, with a bonus of 2x if he stays 2 years. Something like that.

[Buzzbee]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Is it not possible to fill these positions on a contract basis, providing incentives to promote stability?

In other words - you offer somebody the position, paying x amount of dollars, with a bonus of 2x if he stays 2 years. Something like that.

Most likely the bonus of 2x isn't in the budget of the local church. Sure, you could offer $100,000 and get a pretty stable youth ministry going. However, that just simply isn't in the budget for most church's youth minister.

Small and mid-size churches tend to have more turnover, as the staff move on to larger churches. Chances are if they are an ordained minister, youth ministry is not their end destination. If they aren't an ordained minister, chances are that it is merely a stop-over in their non-secular career path.

I imagine that the free agent pool for 'career youth minister' is pretty slim. That is one of the contributing factors to the high turnover.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Buzzbee

Most likely the bonus of 2x isn't in the budget of the local church. Sure, you could offer $100,000 and get a pretty stable youth ministry going. However, that just simply isn't in the budget for most church's youth minister.

Small and mid-size churches tend to have more turnover, as the staff move on to larger churches. Chances are if they are an ordained minister, youth ministry is not their end destination. If they aren't an ordained minister, chances are that it is merely a stop-over in their non-secular career path.

I imagine that the free agent pool for 'career youth minister' is pretty slim. That is one of the contributing factors to the high turnover.

I'm not talking about increasing the budget. I'm thinking of changing the shape payments are made.

[JonInMiddleGA]

St.C -- if I'm reading you right (instead of Y1+Y2=X, it'd be like Y1-minus-Z then Y2+balance of Y1 as bonus), I think you'd probably just have a harder time filling the job in the first place.

[Easy Mac]

My bro-in-law was a youth minister, but he was fired because some girls complained he was too "touchy" because he gives hugs. He gives everyone hugs... hell he'll give me a hug. I think the problem is its a thankless job, no matter how good you are.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

My bro-in-law was a youth minister, but he was fired because some girls complained he was too "touchy" because he gives hugs. He gives everyone hugs... hell he'll give me a hug. I think the problem is its a thankless job, no matter how good you are.

No offense to your brother-in-law, but I'm not a huggy person. A handshake is okay (if you use Germ-X later), but hugs are weird.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Buzzbee

I imagine that the free agent pool for 'career youth minister' is pretty slim. That is one of the contributing factors to the high turnover.

So, by the law of supply and demand, I oughta be able to command a pretty penny.

{Looks around at 2-bedroom, 1-bath house.}


Guess not.


Seriously, am I just a little strange, then? I absolutely, unequivocally LOVE what I do. I just got back from the high school (football practice). I love hanging with the dads. I love talking to the kids. I love joking with the coaches. I love it when, in the words of the article above, I get to see the insecure girl who had one line in the school play light up when she realizes that I really did show up to see her. I love it when one of the "toughest" guys in the school says, "Hey man, I need to talk to you about something." I even love to sit down at lunch, share vision, tell a story about what's going on in kids' lives, and invite the couple sitting across from me to step up their financial support this year so we can hire another staff person and touch more kids' lives. I even love challenging parents to let their kids grow up by experiencing the consequences of their actions. I love it when, as today, I sit down at lunch with a college kid who was home-schooled and grew up in a very sheltered environment, and see how far she's come in the 15 months she's been a leader in her ability and desire to have compassion to reach out and love on hurting, insecure, sexually-active, looking-for-love-in-all-the-wrong-places 15-year-old girls.

Yeah, I could do other things and probably make a good bit more money, but I absolutely, positively cannot see myself doing anything else full-time in the foreseeable future. I love this too much. For me, this is the greatest job in the world.

[Buccaneer]

Ben, you truly are an extrovert which is why you excel whereas others might be less so. Some may find it draining to be around that many people all of the time and would get burned out, or at least feel that they cannot maintain their high level of interactivity that they should. Just know from personal experience of being around good and bad pastors most of my life.

[Buzzbee]

Nah Ben. The free agent pool is pretty thin because no one wants to be a punter because they don't get paid like the skill positions.

Yeah, you're a little strange. :P

But in a good way.

You are good at what you do. You have the skills, the knowledge, and the experience to create those 'feel good' stories. A lot of people don't see or experience those 'wins' and get discouraged. You love your job because you are good at it and get to experience enough of the highs to make the lows worthwhile. That isn't the case for everyone.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

St.C -- if I'm reading you right (instead of Y1+Y2=X, it'd be like Y1-minus-Z then Y2+balance of Y1 as bonus), I think you'd probably just have a harder time filling the job in the first place.

Well, if I understand the situation right, the people that take these jobs and don't stick around, take the jobs because they are the only jobs they qualify for.

What do I know, though.

[cartman]

Maybe the stepping stone reason is just an excuse. It could be they are not sure about if and/or when to bring a sleeping bag...