not enough black head coaches

[waltwal]

while i was watching the ucla-washington game yesterday, one of the announcers decried the lack of hed coaches at the division1-a collegiate level. he said something like "this just has to change. that should read black head coaches

ok how does it change? mr athletic director i represent an aspiring black football coach. i can't really tell you any reasons why he should be a head coach but he is black. ok well let's hire him. i don't think so.

why does someone become a head coach for the first time. i am absolutely convinced that it has nothing to do with color. last year there was a prime example of someone being elevated from assistant to head coach. that was mike sanford at utah. do you think it had anything to do with his color or was it the fact that he was the off coordinator of utah's very successful spread offense.

i am aware of 3 head coaches at the 1-a level. willingham, dorrall and croom. while these are all seemingly decent people none of them is in line for any coach of the year awards. i also think that dorrall was in over his head but he does seem to have recruited pretty well and may turn out ok but i don't think he was really qualified at the time of his hiring. are there black candidates with great credentials that have been passed.i wonder why there are so few blacks that would be good candidates for head coaching jobs. i have to believe that the number of black players each year in division 1-a is around 50% and the number of black coaches on staffs must be around 25%- yet there appear to be few candidates for head coaching jobs.

i can think of 2 black ad's (garett at usc and the ad at syracuse) yet when those jobs came open they chose well-qualified white candidates.

when it becomes apparent that a head coach is about to retire or get fired, the ad would obviously gather a list of candidates for the job. let's say he would establish some criteria for the new coach. does anyone think that color would be anywhere on the list of criteria?

so that brings us to one of the obvious criteria- are there a lot of black coordinators at the 1-a level. i don't know that answer but i will assume there are not many. so then the question arises that white head coaches are reluctant to hire or elevate blacks to coordinator positions. if you have ever looked at the workload of a head football coach at any level this is a ridiculous premise. coaches will spend limitless hours to secure any edge so does it seem likely that a head coach will not elevate members of their staff to their proper levels due to their racial or ethnic backgrounds?

i don't really have an answer tothe question. notice i don't refer to it as a problem. that's because it is only a problem if coaches are being passed over due to their racial or ethnic background. i do not think that is the case. i think the real issue is that there are very few well qualified black candidates. i think when they come along they are rushed up the head coaching ladder rather than hindered.

if someone wants to deal with the issue of why there are not more black head coaches the analysis should probably start with compiling a list each year of who the top candidates are for being elevated to head coaching jobs and if there are black coaches who consistently show up on the list but are not being hired then i would say you have a problem that should be addressed.

the real problem is when an announcer makes the statement made yesterday decring the lack of black head coaches at div1-a. in effect without knowing what the hell he is talking about he is accusing basically all the head coaches and ad's at div 1-a of racism. media people have been fired for far less. i don't ever want anybody fired for making foolish statements but i wish someone would actually analyze this situation and put to rest this crazy assumption about the lack of black head coaches.

[Pumpy Tudors]

This will not end well.

[A-Husker-4-Life]

Dang only 24 posts in 3 years.... I smell a lurker....

[Joe]

i think he was spending those 3 years writing that long ass post.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by A-Husker-4-Life

Dang only 24 posts in 3 years.... I smell a lurker....

He couldn't have lurked that much. If he had, he would've had the same prediction to this thread's outcome as I had.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by George W Bush

i think he was spending those 3 years writing that long ass post.

You'd think after that many years, he would have learned how to use capital letters.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by George W Bush

i think he was spending those 3 years writing that long ass post.

No kidding.

[Tekneek]

Backspace, delete...dictionary.com...punctuation...

Just a few things that would have helped me bother to read that entire post.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by sabotai

You'd think after that many years, he would have learned how to use capital letters.

that is so three years ago

[duckman]

Originally Posted by sabotai

You'd think after that many years, he would have learned how to use capital letters.

The shift key is your friend.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Backspace, delete...dictionary.com...punctuation...

Just a few things that would have helped me bother to read that entire post.

Ditto.

[Airhog]

1. How many black players show an interest in being a coach? If not many black people want to be coach, then there are not going to be many of them.

2. If this is a racial issue, then it has to start at the lowest levels of the program. You have to work your way up the ladder to become a head coach. That means that aspiriing black coaches are not getting the chance to even join the team.

3. I believe that most coaches are going to want every edge possible. If there is some young black guy as a QB coach, and he has great potential then I am definately going to give him a shot at the OC job.

4. I think that any time you have white rich men running things, there will be racism. Its probably more pronounced in the pro's then in college ball, but like you stated, their are only 2 black AD's

[Deattribution]

I didn't really read through that entire post but part of the issue with minority groups getting chances at higher positions is that it's nearly impossible to fire a minority coach without media backlash.. so teams tend to shy away from doing it to avoid the conflict.

If it wasn't made into such a big deal when a minority coach had 3 consecutive 1 win seasons 'but didn't get enough time cause he was (insert race)' then there would be atleast a slight rise in hirings.

[timmynausea]

Hm...

[HomerJSimpson]

Paul Taglibue hates balck people.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by Airhog

I think that any time you have white rich men running things, there will be racism.

I hate that assumption. I know plenty of rich white men. I aspire to be one myself (though that would require a career change). Every single one of them is among the smartest and most fair-minded people I know.

I agree that the media is causing part of this problem. I was listening to a Notre Dame game recently, and the announcers were praising Weis, who is off to a great start. But then, as if on cue, they made sure to mention that Willingham did an excellent job. No, he didn't. He lost far too many games.

The media has made this a political issue. Which will work in the short term, as universities are very political entities, and athletic directors don't have as much power as they used to have.

The only way to correct the problems created by racism is to eliminate racism. Political correctness is a short-term solution to a long-term problem.

[timmynausea]

So schools are not hiring black coaches because they will take heat when they fire them? I thought when schools hired a guy they were thinking "This is the guy that will lead us to conference championships/national championships/wins." Apparently they are thinking about what it'll be like when they fire him.

[bob]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I agree that the media is causing part of this problem. I was listening to a Notre Dame game recently, and the announcers were praising Weis, who is off to a great start. But then, as if on cue, they made sure to mention that Willingham did an excellent job. No, he didn't. He lost far too many games.

Not sure what they actually said, but they might have been trying to say that Willingham had an excellent start as well - he did start 8 - 0.

[Joe]

I've always been curious about this debate-- what # or % of head coaches being black would be acceptable? 15%? 25%? 50%? I have a feeling that no matter what the number happens to be, or becomes in the future, the not enough argument will always exist.

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by Airhog

4. I think that any time you have white rich men running things, there will be racism. Its probably more pronounced in the pro's then in college ball, but like you stated, their are only 2 black AD's

I love it. Stereotype white people and it's fine, stereotype a black man and holy shit you're probably the grandmaster of the KKK.

[Young Drachma]

Frankly, I think it's simply about comfort level. People hire people they're comfortable with or otherwise have some connection to. You hear all the time about head coaches and how they knew this one guy who is AD, when he was somewhere else, etc.

The real issue is not an issue of competency, though that's usually implied in this debate. Nor do I believe that it's an issue of lack of desire by blacks to be head football coaches at the highest levels - or hell, even at lower levels - of college football.

But it just makes sense. If you look at basketball, you see lots of black players. But you also see black coaches. Not as many as some would like, perhaps. But it's not some big mission that someone is out fighting because there isn't one to fight. They get hired and fired all the time.

In college football, not so much.

I think it's a fair question to ask. Do I think there is a nefarious committee of evil white guys conspiring not to hire blacks as head coaches? Nope. It's largely political, just like anything else here.

After all, Charlie Weis is only a head coach because he went back to college. It was consensus that he wasn't going to get a shot in the NFL anytime soon because he's just a former HS coach who never played. So, it cuts both ways.

There was obviously a time when people - and still is, in some places - didn't necessarily mind black players on the field, but not in positions of authority. Some probably doubt their ability to resonate with the "Base" of local players (read: white) or whatever.

A lot of this is bunk, but..it's not completely unfounded either. It's about the person, but since largely, the only persons getting a shot look the same, it seems a fair question to ask "Why?"

Though it's doubtful that there is a cut and dry answer for it.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

I love it. Stereotype white people and it's fine, stereotype a black man and holy shit you're probably the grandmaster of the KKK.

I'm thinking you mean "Grand Dragon." There ain't but two true grandmasters on the planet, young buck.

John Fletcher (Ecstacy)
Jalil Hutchins
Drew Carter (Grandmaster Dee)

[Joe]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

I'm thinking you mean "Grand Dragon." There ain't but two true grandmasters on the planet, young buck.

I thought it was Grand Wizard.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by George W Bush

I thought it was Grand Wizard.

There are Grand Wizards AND Grand Dragons, I'm fairly certain.

[Ben E Lou]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Dragon

Grand Wizard

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

(Redirected from Grand Dragon)
Grand Wizard was the title used by the overall leader of earliest form of the Ku Klux Klan, during Reconstruction in the South. Nathan Bedford Forrest held the title until he dissolved the Klan, but had very little real power, since most Klan "dens" (local groups) were effectively autonomous, due to the Klan's semi-clandestine nature.

The Knights of the Ku Klux Klan of the twentieth century used a different system of titles for their officers, and the leaders of twentieth-century Klan factions have more commonly used the title of Imperial Wizard. In the Klan's second incarnation the Grand Wizard title applied to the organization's main officer at a state or regional level. "Grand Dragon" was a common variation upon this title signifying the same role.

Grand Wizard is the rank attained by the notorious white supremacist politician David Duke prior to leaving the organization.

[Solecismic]

Either way, I think we can trust Harry Potter to get rid of them.

The announcers were quite clear, they were referring to the 6-6 season that led to the firing.

I don't see the comfort level argument as applying. If you're around football all the time, you had better be comfortable with people of both races. Especially if you want to be seen as a leader.

The percentage of black coaches will continue to rise, as long as the media shuts its collective pie-hole. There was unquestionably racism in the past. Black players were told they could not get into coaching. That is not the case today. It takes 20-30 years to build a coaching career. Unfortunately, we can't wave a magic wand and give the blacks who were unfairly denied that opportunity 30 years ago that necessary experience.

[TroyF]

The problem here is that it's true. Race is in play here. I hate the race card being played. Part of the reason is because when there are REAL issues that need to be addressed they aren't. It's utterly ridiculous that there are so few minorities coaching at teh NCAA and NFL level. We can list all of the reasons and all of the assumptions, but it's just not right.

There are minorities all over the place who are solid candidates to fill these jobs. They are just looked over and it's a shame.

I'm not sure that it's actually "racism" at play here. Race is involved, but things that have been mentioned earlier in this post certainly come into play. (comfort level being the big one) I just hope it starts to change. I don't give a damn if guys like Willingham get canned for doing poor jobs so long as they are given the same chances the white failures have. (and as of now, they most certainly are) I'd just like to see more hired.

[Airhog]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I hate that assumption. I know plenty of rich white men. I aspire to be one myself (though that would require a career change). Every single one of them is among the smartest and most fair-minded people I know.

I agree that the media is causing part of this problem. I was listening to a Notre Dame game recently, and the announcers were praising Weis, who is off to a great start. But then, as if on cue, they made sure to mention that Willingham did an excellent job. No, he didn't. He lost far too many games.

The media has made this a political issue. Which will work in the short term, as universities are very political entities, and athletic directors don't have as much power as they used to have.

The only way to correct the problems created by racism is to eliminate racism. Political correctness is a short-term solution to a long-term problem.

How many black CEO's are there? Black Board members? Black executives? Don't get me wrong though, its not just blacks, how many minorities lead companys? Im just saying, on the outside looking in at power and wealth, the most wealthy and the most powerful people, are usually white in this country. What does that say?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

It takes 20-30 years to build a coaching career. Unfortunately, we can't wave a magic wand and give the blacks who were unfairly denied that opportunity 30 years ago that necessary experience.

Bingo. On the same note, why is it that we're now starting to see so many black QB's? Doug Williams gave the final validation when he won the Super Bowl in around '88, but also right around that time, Greenville HS in Greenville, GA had *one* white kid on the team, and all white coaches. Guess what position Kevin Hudson played. Yup, QB. I'd be willing to bet that at that time the recreational leagues and junior highs also played a white kid at QB by default. Yeah, NFL coaches were willing to play the best player available at QB, and NFL fans were willing to accept the best player available, but because of the history of racism, there weren't dozens of black QB's just waiting in the wings. Most hadn't been groomed as QB's. But somewhere, around 15-20 years ago I'd suspect, even in rural Southern towns it became acceptable to have a black QB, and now that black kids have grown up with unfettered access to the QB position from park ball to junior high to high school to college, you're seeing more and more who are ready for the pros. The same thing is happening in the coaching ranks, but it is just taking a little longer, primarily, I think, because coaching careers take a little longer to develop than do playing careers.

[Rizon]

# Blacks / Total Population * Average # of blacks interested in football / coaching positions = these aren't the droids you're looking for

[JW]

What is it with the paucity of Native American quarterbacks in the NFL? I think racism is at work here.

[Noop]

We need more fat coaches. Black and fat would be the perfect match.

[HomerJSimpson]

We need more women coaches. Hot women coaches.

[Airhog]

With big boobs, and they have to wear white blouses, with no bra in case they get the water dumped on them!

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by Airhog

With big boobs, and they have to wear white blouses, with no bra in case they get the water dumped on them!

Brilliant!

[General Mike]

Originally Posted by Noop

We need more fat coaches. Black and fat would be the perfect match.

Romeo Crennel.

And I forgot where I read it, but someone mentioned that black assistant coaches in the NFL don't want to take college jobs (coordinator, et al), because they feel they have a better chance to move up thru the ranks in the pros.

It would be interesting to know how many black coordinators there are in 1-A football.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by TroyF

The problem here is that it's true. Race is in play here. I hate the race card being played. Part of the reason is because when there are REAL issues that need to be addressed they aren't. It's utterly ridiculous that there are so few minorities coaching at teh NCAA and NFL level. We can list all of the reasons and all of the assumptions, but it's just not right.

There are minorities all over the place who are solid candidates to fill these jobs. They are just looked over and it's a shame.

I'm not sure that it's actually "racism" at play here. Race is involved, but things that have been mentioned earlier in this post certainly come into play. (comfort level being the big one) I just hope it starts to change. I don't give a damn if guys like Willingham get canned for doing poor jobs so long as they are given the same chances the white failures have. (and as of now, they most certainly are) I'd just like to see more hired.

I have to agree as well, but I think it's gotten much better. I remember how long it took for great defensive coordinators such as Tony Dungy and Marvin Lewis to get a head coaching job... passed over by white candidates with worse resumes. Nowadays though (only a few years after) Romeo Crennel gets a job pretty quick after he starts looking.

I think in college football it's a bit worse. And I do think comfort level may fit in.

[rexallllsc]

This will happen over time. Like another said, this must start at the low ranks. Look at how many black assistants there were 30 years ago, and look how many there are now.

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by Airhog

With big boobs, and they have to wear white blouses, with no bra in case they get the water dumped on them!

Originally Posted by General Mike

Romeo Crennel.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Airhog

How many black CEO's are there? Black Board members? Black executives? Don't get me wrong though, its not just blacks, how many minorities lead companys? Im just saying, on the outside looking in at power and wealth, the most wealthy and the most powerful people, are usually white in this country. What does that say?

That most of the people in the country are white? That white people start more small businesses and build them up? That a higher percentage of white people attend college? Just throwing things out there since you asked.

(edited to add that I might be wrong on 3 of the three)

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

That most of the people in the country are white? That white people start more small businesses and build them up? That a higher percentage of white people attend college? Just throwing things out there since you asked.

And that there is some racism that still exist. Racism is not the only reason, but it is still there.

[timmynausea]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Unfortunately, we can't wave a magic wand and give the blacks who were unfairly denied that opportunity 30 years ago that necessary experience.

Ok, this is the second time recently that Jim has used the "wave a magic wand" line. It has to be a clue.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by HomerJSimpson

And that there is some racism that still exist. Racism is not the only reason, but it is still there.

I agree. I play pickup basketball 3-4 times a week and never fail to get called "cracker", "white-boy", "John Stockton", etc.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by timmynausea

Ok, this is the second time recently that Jim has used the "wave a magic wand" line. It has to be a clue.

Front Office Quidditch?

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I agree. I play pickup basketball 3-4 times a week and never fail to get called "cracker", "white-boy", "John Stockton", etc.

And that has to do with hiring practices.....?

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by HomerJSimpson

And that has to do with hiring practices.....?

It doesn't. I was just agreeing with your staement that racism still exists.

[Young Drachma]

I think racial slurs are completely different than blatant or even benign racism in the workplace. Not to say that either is ok. But they're obviously different.

[waltwal]

in response to troyf. the question that i posed was- are black candidates being passed over. i really follow college football but i can't say that i am aware of whether or not there are qualified black candidates being passed over.

the natural progression to becoming a head coach at division 1-a is being a successful head coach at a lower level or a coordinator at the 1-a level. i don't think either dorrall or willingham were coordinators before they got their 1st hc position. i think croom was.

what i think should be the case is that instead of just blurting out on national tv the implication that racism exists in holding back blacks from advancing to head coaching positions at the 1-a level there should be some sort of study to see if qualified black candidates are being passed over. are there in fact black head coaches at div 1-aa or div 2 or coordinators at 1-a that are applying for jobs and being turned down. is there a consistent pattern?
i believe that the study would show that no such pattern exists.

i feel that there is probably enough racism in the world without having to imply that it exists in areas where it very likely does not exist.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

I think racial slurs are completely different than blatant or even benign racism in the workplace. Not to say that either is ok. But they're obviously different.

True. It doesn't really make me that mad usually, since it means I probably just dropped a 3 on someone or put an elbow in someone's ribs.

[Young Drachma]

There have been a number of studies done in academia over the past decade related to this issue and all of them expose the same pervasive issues. Largely related to athletic directors and their lack of interest in identifying candidates beyond those who are white.

Article The article is from 1998.

What's particularly telling is about the D-3 lady and how she said that if a school had few minority students that essentially, they shouldn't be expected to have minority coaches.

Which of course, is completely bogus.

Dr. Lapchick said he was surprised that institutions in Division III had the smallest proportions of black coaches and athletics administrators. Only 3.1 per cent of the men's coaches, 3.3 per cent of the women's coaches, and 3.7 per cent of the athletics directors in Division III were black.

"You would think that if anybody could give black coaches a shot, it would be Division III, where they pride themselves on preserving the true participatory meaning of sports," he said.

However, Mary Jo Gunning, a member of the Minority Opportunities and Interest Committee, said the proportion of black coaches and administrators in Division III was kept low, in part, by factors other than race.

"In Division III, you must look at the percentage of minority students enrolled in the institution," said Dr. Gunning, athletics director at Marywood University, a Division III institution in Scranton, Pa. "It is not fair to say that we are the least representative of the three divisions."