Interesting Exchange Regarding Homosexual Behavior And Christ-Centered Faith

[Ben E Lou]

So I received this e-mail yesterday afternoon.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ***********************
> Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 1:36 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Feedback From WyldLife: "Real Fun. Real Friends. Real Life."
>
>
> Feedback from http://sites.younglife.org/sites/NorthlakeWyldlife
> Name: ************
> Email: ************
> I am considering having my son participate and given the range of Christian
> beliefs, I am wanting to know the organization's position on homosexuality.
>
> Please use my email this time only for a response to this question, but I do
> not want to be added to a data base at this time. Thanks, *********
>

You gotta love a loaded question that comes with very little hint of what angle the person is coming from. Last I checked, my county has the second-largest per capita population of those engaging in homosexual activities in the nation. However, there is also a vocal minority of serious anti-gay folks--the type who wouldn't let their kids be involved in an organization that wouldn't agree with them that "God hates fags." I always look at political/theological questions from parents with 2 primary concerns:

1. I want to answer with integrity.
2. I don't want a parent's position on an issue to prevent their kid from being involved.

Obviously, those two concerns can be at odds with each other at times. So, after prayer and some wise counsel, I decided that since she asked specifically about her child's involvement, I'd answer from the perspective of policy directly relating to her kid. (The prevailing thought was that, "the organization's position on homosexuality" can be answered in SO many ways from SO many different perspectives that I didn't want to write a freakin' book to her in response to such a short question.) I also did a little research. Her last name is an unusual one, and her first name has an unusual spelling of a common one. I did a Google search on her name and found out that she's a PhD Psychologist who used to work in Athens, and now has an office in the Decatur area. I figured it to be a safe assumption that she was not coming at this question from the far right, shall we say.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ben Lewis [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 5:04 PM
> To: **************
> Subject: RE: Feedback From WyldLife: "Real Fun. Real Friends. Real
> Life."
>
>
> ***********:
>
> Thanks for taking the time to write and find out more about Young Life. Our
> position is to welcome the involvement of all students, regardless of race,
> sexual orientation or creed to be involved in all of our activities. We
> share the basic aspects of faith in Christ, and very rarely do we engage
> kids in discussions about controversial and/or politicized topics.
>
> Ben Lewis
> Area Director
> Young Life Northlake

So, this morning, I woke up to this response from late last night...

----- Original Message ----- From: *********, Ph.D (And yes, her first e-mail did NOT include the "Ph.D," but her second one did.)
To: "Ben Lewis" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 10:33 PM
Subject: RE: Feedback From WyldLife: "Real Fun. Real Friends. Real Life."



> Good answer, I just didn't want him preached to that families like ours are
> wrong in any way. Unfortunately, the hatred against Gays/lesbians has been
> erroneously connected with "Christianity" so I needed to ask. Strange world
> that the two could ever be joined.

*****

I found that response to be extremely bizarre, particularly considering that in not knowing for sure what she was wanting to know, I did not answer what turns out to be the core of her question. Jerry Clower talked of those who are educated beyond their intelligence. This sounds like a classic example.

Thoughts?

[QuikSand]

You didn't take the bait. Test passed.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

You didn't take the bait. Test passed.

This was my take on it as well.

But Ben, you did answer her question I think in stating that you did not discuss these issues. Meaning that if you don't discuss it, then you definately don't "preach" it... right?

[Barkeep49]

I'm on the you did answer her question bandwagon. She wanted to know if her child was going to be preached anti-homosexuality; your answer clearly states that her child will not be preached to in that way.

I find her clearly stating that she doesn't want to be placed on your mailing list far more revealing than anything else .

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by wade moore

This was my take on it as well.

But Ben, you did answer her question I think in stating that you did not discuss these issues. Meaning that if you don't discuss it, then you definately don't "preach" it... right?

I answered honestly. I said that we "very rarely" would discuss it. Meaning, if a kid asked me a direct question regarding the Biblical view of homosexual behavior, then sure, I'd answer it. Would it be "preached" from up front in a meeting? By no means. How many times have I been asked such a question in 17 years of doing this? Twice that I can remember. So yeah, I'd say that would qualify as "very rare." Perhaps I'm assigned too much to her use of the word "preached," also. My best guess is that she is meaning a more global definition of "preached" than merely standing up front at a meeting and saying something. I just looked up "preach," however, and most definitions of it do have a public component. {shrug}

[John Galt]

I just have a question about the least important part of your post - where did you hear about the 2nd highest gay and lesbian per capita population? A couple of my (lesbian) friends lived in the Atlanta area for a long time and they complained they never found much of a community there (although they did say the Pride parade was quite good).

[albionmoonlight]

Interesting. There are those who believe that the teachings of Christ, while stressing God's love for everyone and the love we should have for each other, still considers engaging in homosexual acts to be sinful and wrong. It's all there in the book.

Then there are those who believe that Christ's message of love thy neighbor stresses inclusion and acceptance and that the prohibitions against homosexual behavior contained in the Old and New Testaments are not the message of God, but simply a reflection of men at the time interjecting their (misguided) personal attitudes into the holy scriptures that they were drafting. Far from believing that Christianity rejects the homosexual lifestyle, they believe that "love thy neighbor" mandates acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle.

No need to discuss here which of these positions is right (or even if asking if one of them is right is a valid question).

It sounds like she believes #2 and was really asking if Young Life does too. Her question was a pretty large one--what is the basic approach to Christianity that Young Life takes viz a viz homosexual behavior--and maybe even toward Christ in general.

I think that the phrase "basic aspects of faith in Christ" is the key here. I am betting that that phrase means something very different to you than it does to her. As a socially liberal Christian myself, I see where she is coming from. I spent a year in a Christian volunteer group that was run mainly by lesbians and was VERY left wing (JVC: Northwest). The "basic aspects of faith in Christ" explored there were VERY different than the "basic aspects of faith in Christ" touted by the stereotypical "religious right." Christ to some people is a VERY left wing figure. Look up liberation theology to get a sense of that. In terms of day to day life--extreme left wing and extreme right wing Christians may as well be two different religions.

So, when one meets someone and learns that they are a Christian--I think that one (especially if they engage in a homosexual lifestyle) simply does not know what that means anymore because it can mean so many different things. And that is what she was really asking, IMO. As an active academic lesbian living in the South, she has seen both extremes, I am sure.

As to what, if anything, you should do now? You know that more than I do. I'm just trying to help you get inside her head a bit.

[Blackadar]

I'd say you answered her question.

[Ben E Lou]

FWIW, the "controversial" topic I've had the most questions about over the years has probably been the election/free will/predestination/choice/Calvinism/Arminianism question, and I'm pretty sure that one has come up less than 10 times.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

FWIW, the "controversial" topic I've had the most questions about over the years has probably been the election/free will/predestination/choice/Calvinism/Arminianism question, and I'm pretty sure that one has come up less than 10 times.

Well, that's an extremely important question, but do you really think it scores that high on the 'controversial' scale? I know very few people that actually HAVE an answer to that one.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by John Galt

I just have a question about the least important part of your post - where did you hear about the 2nd highest gay and lesbian per capita population? A couple of my (lesbian) friends lived in the Atlanta area for a long time and they complained they never found much of a community there (although they did say the Pride parade was quite good).

I heard it fairly recently. I did find some stats from a few years ago, which list DeKalb County as #6...





Also, from this site: http://myweb.ecomplanet.com/TPFT8634...ompage0030.htm

MORE 2000 CENSUS INFORMATION

Dekalb county, Georgia
DeKalb County ranks with San Francisco, parts of Cape Cod, Mass., and the Key West, Fla., area for the highest percentage of gay couples in the nation, according to U.S. Census Bureau figures released on 8/22/01.

and later on the same site...

LESBIAN FRIENDLY CITIES AS PUT OUT BY GIRLFRIENDS MAGAZINE

ATLANTA, GEORGIA
Lesbian community is in DeKalb county in nearby Decatur and work mainly in Virgina Highlands or Little Five Points. Hang outs are; My Sister’s Room.
Number of gay/lesbian businesses/organizations; 92

[ISiddiqui]

Put me down for you answered her question as well. She just wanted to know if you stood up in meetings and said homosexuality is wrong, that sort of stuff.

[Bubba Wheels]

May also be purely political. Left needs to find a way to reconcile pro-homosexual attitudes with a country that basically now votes Republican and of which (the country) 90% believe in God. The hope for the left is in finding a compromising middle ground of which is labeled 'Christian' while being friendly to the gay agenda. In this case, you probably failed the test.

Interesting in the timing of it also. Time magazine just came out with 'Gay Teens' on the cover and the feature story. Two groups are highlighted, one being pro-gay and the other being Exodus.

Given her name and PHD title, my next question would be is she active in the democratic party? Would answer alot.

[John Galt]

Thanks SD. Since my Atlanta geography is so poor, can you tell me how DeKalb County relates to the city. My friends lived downtown at the time (I think). Would that be far away from the DeKalb area or not?

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

May also be purely political. Left needs to find a way to reconcile pro-homosexual attitudes with a country that basically now votes Republican and of which (the country) 90% believe in God. The hope for the left is in finding a compromising middle ground of which is labeled 'Christian' while being friendly to the gay agenda. In this case, you probably failed the test.

Interesting in the timing of it also. Time magazine just came out with 'Gay Teens' on the cover and the feature story. Two groups are highlighted, one being pro-gay and the other being Exodus.

Please be quiet. Thank you.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by John Galt

Please be quiet. Thank you.

Aren't you the type that trumpets ACLU protection of free speech?

[Ryche]

I've actually seen a few places indicate Minneapolis had the 2nd largest gay population after San Francisco....or percentage or something like that.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Ryche

I've actually seen a few places indicate Minneapolis had the 2nd largest gay population after San Francisco....or percentage or something like that.

The stats usually depend on 2 things: 1) Do you do it by county or city; and 2) What size is the cutoff. For example, where I live now, Iowa City, has one of the highest (usually top 10, sometimes top 5) populations per capita in the U.S. But it doesn't make the lists that limit things to big cities. Places like Hampshire, MA (which is mostly lesbian population) make the counties list, but not the cities list. With that being said, I've never heard of Minneapolis having an unusually high gay population for a big city.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by John Galt

Thanks SD. Since my Atlanta geography is so poor, can you tell me how DeKalb County relates to the city. My friends lived downtown at the time (I think). Would that be far away from the DeKalb area or not?

DeKalb is north and east of the city, but in close proximity. (Compared to the rest of the nation, Georgia has *very* small counties.) From downtown Decatur, which is the county seat and the most gay-friendly area in DeKalb County, to downtown Atlanta is listed as 7.83 miles on Mapquest. Technically, part of the Atlanta City Limits extend into DeKalb County. Most people consider Fulton and DeKalb to be the "Urban" counties in metro Atlanta. They are the only two counties that MARTA (our pathetic rapid transit system) operates in. The two primary places in metro Atlanta known for having significant gay populations are Midtown, which is in Fulton County, and Decatur.

[Fonzie]

Originally Posted by John Galt

Please be quiet. Thank you.

I second the motion. The motion can now be put to a vote. All in favor say aye...

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Aren't you the type that trumpets ACLU protection of free speech?

Yes and free speech doesn't mean you can't tell someone else to be quiet, as long as you aren't the government .

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Aren't you the type that trumpets ACLU protection of free speech?

You have every right to say what you want. And John has every right to politely ask you to be quiet.

Based on past history, there seems to be a pretty sharp decline in the quality of discourse once you appear in a thread. Maybe that's because you are a troll, or maybe it is because you are speaking the harsh truth and we just can't accept it. I don't really care.

I think that John was just saddened to see whatever chance this thread had of being something positive shot to heck as soon as you appeared.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Yes and free speech doesn't mean you can't tell someone else to be quiet, as long as you aren't the government .

Yes, but why is it always the same members of the mutual 'stroke-a-thon' club (still waiting for Blackadar's post) that always seem to think I care about what the heck they think?

[John Galt]

Thanks again SD.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

You have every right to say what you want. And John has every right to politely ask you to be quiet.

Based on past history, there seems to be a pretty sharp decline in the quality of discourse once you appear in a thread. Maybe that's because you are a troll, or maybe it is because you are speaking the harsh truth and we just can't accept it. I don't really care.

I think that John was just saddened to see whatever chance this thread had of being something positive shot to heck as soon as you appeared.

Well, that's just your (simple) opinion. My points are valid. You don't like 'em, that's your though tamalies.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Fonzie

I second the motion. The motion can now be put to a vote. All in favor say aye...

Aye

[Buccaneer]

Eric/albion: As we have discussed here over the years, I believe there is no conflict. Ben answered correctly implying that we (as believers in Christ) are to love unconditionally. That does not mean we accept sinful acts of others (and of ourselves) unconditionally. When asked personally, Ben will share this view but it is very important to stress that it does not diminish any involvement, interaction and acceptance of the person that we are told to love. This is a very hard thing for many believers to do, to separate the sin from the person and to love that person. It is no different than accepting a known adulterer in a Sunday School class. The Holy Spirit will take care of forgiveness and the redemption, we are just told to love.

[cuervo72]

I'd say that she is raising her child with a same-sex partner ("families like ours"), and just wanted to know that her child isn't going to be preached about how families with same-sex parents are considered evil. Because you said that those kinds of political land mines are avoided in your group, I'd say you may have assuaged her fears. Unless for some reason she is specifically going around calling organizations in order to target them if they don't give the answer she likes in some way (in which case like QS said, you passed), but that seems like a reach to me.

[Simms]

> Good answer, I just didn't want him preached to that families like ours are
> wrong in any way.

That's a pretty good indicator of where she's coming from, no? No bait...just a parent concerned about the treatment her child might receive because of his parents' sexuality.

Not that that is apparently relevant in this thread anymore.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

May also be purely political. Left needs to find a way to reconcile pro-homosexual attitudes with a country that basically now votes Republican and of which (the country) 90% believe in God. The hope for the left is in finding a compromising middle ground of which is labeled 'Christian' while being friendly to the gay agenda. In this case, you probably failed the test.

Since I couldn't possibly care less about what is done to the label "Christian," I think not. In fact, I'd just as soon get rid of the term altogether.

Given her name and PHD title, my next question would be is she active in the democratic party? Would answer alot.

It appears that she's not very active, if at all. I just checked. She hasn't made any individual political contributions >$200, dating back to 1990.

[Simms]

*shakes fist at curevo*

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Simms

That's a pretty good indicator of where she's coming from, no? No bait...just a parent concerned about the treatment her child might receive because of his parents' sexuality.

Not that that is apparently relevant in this thread anymore.

FWIW, I read her email in the same way.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Simms

That's a pretty good indicator of where she's coming from, no? No bait...just a parent concerned about the treatment her child might receive because of his parents' sexuality.

Not that that is apparently relevant in this thread anymore.

Oh, sure. But that information didn't come out until after I'd answered the question.

[Anthony]

people actually still say "tough tamalies"?

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

It appears that she's not very active, if at all. I just checked. She hasn't made any individual political contributions >$200, dating back to 1990.

That's not terribly surprising. I'm not sure why someone would think a PhD is more apt to be helping the Democratic Party financially. While PhD's lean more to the left, that doesn't mean they give as much to the Democractic Party as other groups.

As liberal as people here think I am and as much as I care about gay rights, I've never give a dime to the Democratic Party or any of its candidates.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Oh, sure. But that information didn't come out until after I'd answered the question.

True enough. But from her view, I think it is perfectly reasonable to ask the question in that way. There is not a lot of trust among gay communities for a lot of mainstream institutions. I imagine that is even moreso of Christian groups. I think her question is indicative of a lack of trust more than an actual trap or trick. She wanted to make sure she got 100% honest answer and didn't want to find her kid coming home calling her a sinner who was going to burn in hell.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Since I couldn't possibly care less about what is done to the label "Christian," I think not. In fact, I'd just as soon get rid of the term altogether.

It appears that she's not very active, if at all. I just checked. She hasn't made any individual political contributions >$200, dating back to 1990.

Fair enough, but a "Phd Psycologist' would tend to infer 1. Research and 2. Publication. So my Spider-Sense is still tingling.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Blah blah blah blah I'm a fucking moron blah blah blah blah look at me blah blah blah blah rant rant rant rant I don't know jack shit about being a Christian blah blah blah blah I've never read the Bible blah blah blah blah look at me look at me look at me blah blah blah

Fixed that for you

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

people actually still say "tough tamalies"?

That's one that's been used before? Thought I was being original!

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Fixed that for you

Stroke Stroke Stroke your Boat...

[Celeval]

I think you answered it. I gather her question to essentially be:

1 - Are you going to kick my child out of the group when you find out he (is homosexual/has homosexual parents/something or other)?

2 - Is my child going to be flat out told that they are evil and bad because she (is homosexual/has homosexual parents/something or other); either by you and the ministers, or the other members of the organization?

I think you answered it in two ways. The bit about creed/race/etc answers #1 (child is welcome). You seemed to answer the second one by, if nothing else, showing that you understand there are topics that are politicized, and that (as can be read into it a bit) you're not willing to risk fracturing the group based on that.

Also, your tone, I think helped a lot. I think she was looking to see if you'd respond with fire-and-brimstone, quoting scripture every other line - essentially, if you're hardline. You answered in a well-thought out, rational manner; and I think that's as big a test as anything else (especially for a PhD in psych).

As for 'preach' - I understand the meaning as is commonly taken about spreading the Word = preaching, regardless of the context. I grew up with 'preach' being connotated with 'word from on high', coming from the pulpit, etc. Essentially, telling someone what to believe rather than engaging in discussion. Using that connotation of preach may clear her answer up a bit.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Eric/albion: As we have discussed here over the years, I believe there is no conflict. Ben answered correctly implying that we (as believers in Christ) are to love unconditionally. That does not mean we accept sinful acts of others (and of ourselves) unconditionally. When asked personally, Ben will share this view but it is very important to stress that it does not diminish any involvement, interaction and acceptance of the person that we are told to love. This is a very hard thing for many believers to do, to separate the sin from the person and to love that person. It is no different than accepting a known adulterer in a Sunday School class. The Holy Spirit will take care of forgiveness and the redemption, we are just told to love.

I hope that most Christians agree that we are all called to love each other without reservation. (Which is hard to do. My job involves reviewing, among other things, the facts of death penalty cases. The facts of crimes that some of these guys commit (i.e. torture murders sometimes simply for the sake of torturing and murdering somone) makes it very hard for me to honestly say that I love them. They seem less than human to me sometimes.)

I think that there is a division, however, between people who call themselves Christians and beleive that homosexuality is a sin and people who call themselves Christians and beleive that homosexuality is not a sin. Even if we all agree to love sinners and hate sins, we don't really agree on what actions constitue sins.

I know Christians who beleive that engaging in homosexual acts is a sin. And I know Christians who believe that it is not. I know Christians who beleive that pre-marital sex is a sin. And I know Christians who believe that it is not. I know Christians who beleive that owning more than one house is a sin. And I know Christians who believe that it is not. I know Christians who beleive that not tithing is a sin. And I know Christians who believe that it is not. I know Christians who beleive that running the water while you brush your teeth is a sin (wasting God's resources while others die of thirst). And I know Christians who believe that it is not. Heck, I know Christians who, if pushed, would probably admit that they beleive that capitalism is a sin. And I know Christians who believe that it is not.

So the general point that we all need to love each other as Christians is well taken. But what is sin? Specifically? People who all consider themselves Christian have very different answers to that.

[Celeval]

Also... so, what happens if she finds and reads this thread? Sheesh, scare her off, SD.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Stroke Stroke Stroke your Boat...

We all realize that you do since you can't get laid.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

We all realize that you do since you can't get laid.

Sorry, one cheap shot per customer. You've now officially exceeded your quota...have a nice day!

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Fair enough, but a "Phd Psycologist' would tend to infer 1. Research and 2. Publication. So my Spider-Sense is still tingling.

and research is a bad thing LOL be well read enough to have something published alsoa bad thing.....I sense something medevil about BW's desires.

[albionmoonlight]

Also--I realize that I was so caught up in what she was thinking, that I didn't mention:

Good job, SkyDog. You run an inclusive youth group that works to share the miracle of Christ's love with all who come to your door. You have strong personal and political beliefs which are important to you, but from what I can tell, you have never let those beliefs get in the way of spreading the message of Christ's love (to the extent that your beliefs get in the way of that message, which I can't believe is often if at all).

I thank you for your service.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Sorry, one cheap shot per customer. You've now officially exceeded your quota...have a nice day!

With you, bucky, there's no quota. It's like shooting fish in a barrel.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I hope that most Christians agree that we are all called to love each other without reservation. (Which is hard to do. My job involves reviewing, among other things, the facts of death penalty cases. The facts of crimes that some of these guys commit (i.e. torture murders sometimes simply for the sake of torturing and murdering somone) makes it very hard for me to honestly say that I love them. They seem less than human to me sometimes.)

I think that there is a division, however, between people who call themselves Christians and beleive that homosexuality is a sin and people who call themselves Christians and beleive that homosexuality is not a sin. Even if we all agree to love sinners and hate sins, we don't really agree on what actions constitue sins.

I know Christians who beleive that engaging in homosexual acts is a sin. And I know Christians who believe that it is not. I know Christians who beleive that pre-marital sex is a sin. And I know Christians who believe that it is not. I know Christians who beleive that owning more than one house is a sin. And I know Christians who believe that it is not. I know Christians who beleive that not tithing is a sin. And I know Christians who believe that it is not. I know Christians who beleive that running the water while you brush your teeth is a sin (wasting God's resources while others die of thirst). And I know Christians who believe that it is not. Heck, I know Christians who, if pushed, would probably admit that they beleive that capitalism is a sin. And I know Christians who believe that it is not.

So the general point that we all need to love each other as Christians is well taken. But what is sin? Specifically? People who all consider themselves Christian have very different answers to that.

Not to distract away from albionmoonlight's points, which are all good, I think there is alot of ambiguity in what it means to "love" someone in the Christian sense. It is my (outsider's) understanding that many view "love" as a paternalistic love while others view it is a "love" of toleration. I think this difference can be shown in a lot of missionary work. Converting (be it from other religions or lifestyles) is an act often justified by paternalistic "love." That is, by converting that person, you are saving their soul and showing "love" by doing what is best for that person. This is in contrast to a "love" that is more of a "live and let live" view of the world. This second, tolerant "love" does not mean you hide your views, but that you don't believe it is your mission to know what is best for everyone else. Perhaps the difference also stems from how one views "pride" as a sin (since conversion requires more pride than humility, IMO).

Anyway, those are just my outsider thoughts, so please tell me if I'm wrong.

[Subby]

Her query seems fairly straightforward to me. As a parent you want to put your child in nurturing, learning environments and do what you can to keep them out of harmful ones.

What kind of effect would it have on a child if they were taught that their parents were going to Hell for being sinners? Whether or that is your particular religious belief or not, you have to recognize the severely traumatic psychological impact that would have on a child.

Unfortunately, not all Christians that believe homosexuality is a sin are as understanding and thoughtful as Bucc or SD.

I applaud her for doing a little legwork and making an effort on behalf of her child. Many parents can't be bothered.