Is Joe Torre really that good?

Deattribution · 10-11-2005, 02:29 PM

I know you can only do so much to make up for your players under preforming, but you have people calling this year his best manageriall job to date - and I don't get it...

Yeah, there's alot of pressure in NY, and he was put in some awkward situations, but what part of a 200+ million dollar payroll under preforming is a great job?

They have continously did less with more for years, and even when they were at their height, it was more like 'no shit' then it was they were such a great team.

So am I missing something considering I see all the resources he's had, or is Joe Torre really that good?

rkmsuf · 10-11-2005, 02:31 PM

He's good. He didn't pick the groceries even if they are high priced groceries. He's not like super manager but no doubt he's quality.

moriarty · 10-11-2005, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deattribution

I know you can only do so much to make up for your players under preforming, but you have people calling this year his best manageriall job to date - and I don't get it...

Yeah, there's alot of pressure in NY, and he was put in some awkward situations, but what part of a 200+ million dollar payroll under preforming is a great job?

They have continously did less with more for years, and even when they were at their height, it was more like 'no shit' then it was they were such a great team.

So am I missing something considering I see all the resources he's had, or is Joe Torre really that good?

I think the fact his pitching rotation was awful was not really his fault this year. Having said that, I don't think Torre was ever that 'great' as a manager, I just think he was the right personality for that team. It's harder than it looks to manage a bunch of overpaid stars, and I think he has the right tempermanent/ego that he's made it work for the past 8-10 years or whatever he's been in charge.

jeff061 · 10-11-2005, 02:32 PM

I'd take him over Francona. Yankee taint and all.

rkmsuf · 10-11-2005, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff061

I'd take him over Francona. Yankee taint and all.

To be fair Tito does a good job overall. It's an impossible place to manage in.

jeff061 · 10-11-2005, 02:37 PM

No doubt, all managers get taken to task in Boston. But I think he coddles the Millar posse, rather than telling him to STFU or even fostering a less high schoolish social structure on the team. I just don't like the attitude of the team, haven't since he came on and Millar "rose to power".

Deattribution · 10-11-2005, 02:38 PM

Well yeah, I'd agree Torre is 'good', just hear so much how he's one if not the greatest manager ever, and I don't how you can say that about a guy who before he inherited a 100+ million dollar payroll team couldn't even win his division more than once.

rkmsuf · 10-11-2005, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff061

No doubt, all managers get taken to task in Boston. But I think he coddles the Millar posse, rather than telling him to STFU or even fostering a less high schoolish social structure on the team. I just don't like the attitude of the team, haven't since he came on and Millar "rose to power".

you are aware they won the whole thing with a bunch of malcontents right?

Anthony · 10-11-2005, 02:38 PM

he's overrated. how much managing of ego's in baseball does one really need to do? all you need to do is know where to bat whom in the lineup.

jeff061 · 10-11-2005, 02:42 PM

Yes I am, and I was negative about them that whole year for the same reason

. I'm glad they won it, doesn't mean I can't hate the players and how the coach handles them.

I don't know how Torre would handle it in Boston, I'd like to think he'd tone things down some and keep players more focused at the task at hand. Who knows though. Belichick and the Pats have spoiled me.

Galaxy · 10-11-2005, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

He's good. He didn't pick the groceries even if they are high priced groceries. He's not like super manager but no doubt he's quality.

Yeap, key statement-it's not his team. He's just the head puppet.

GreenMonster · 10-11-2005, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

To be fair Tito does a good job overall. It's an impossible place to manage in.

Tito did much better last year than this year.. Sticking with Millar when Olerud is hot and then vice versa. Like you said impossible place to manage and I can't think of many guys to replace him now that he has done it for 2 years. Something tells me they will again look at Ken Macha..

vtbub · 10-11-2005, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenMonster

Tito did much better last year than this year.. Sticking with Millar when Olerud is hot and then vice versa. Like you said impossible place to manage and I can't think of many guys to replace him now that he has done it for 2 years. Something tells me they will again look at Ken Macha..

Ewwww...Macha.

I'm so-so on Tito. I do agree that he was better last year, but he can't pitch, which was the big one this year.

I'd rather have Torre than Cox or Larussa, but Sciocia is baseball's best.

Ramzavail · 10-11-2005, 02:53 PM

aaron small off the scrap heap, 10-0. Case closed.

GreenMonster · 10-11-2005, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtbub

Ewwww...Macha.

I'm so-so on Tito. I do agree that he was better last year, but he can't pitch, which was the big one this year.

I'd rather have Torre than Cox or Larussa, but Sciocia is baseball's best.

I didn't say I liked Macha, just that I believe the Sox will give him a look.. I am with you on Sciocia. Considering the other candiates right now, I see Tito coming back..

GreenMonster · 10-11-2005, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramzavail

aaron small off the scrap heap, 10-0. Case closed.

That would be Cashman, along with the Chacon trade.. The moves they have made the last 2 offseasons though were just plain stupid..

sterlingice · 10-11-2005, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramzavail

aaron small off the scrap heap, 10-0. Case closed.

Um, no. Does that mean Jose Lima's 6-0 with 3 ERA in 2003 off the independent league scrap heap makes Tony Pena a genius manager (finishing 8-3 with a 4.91 after coming back from injury)?

SI

moriarty · 10-11-2005, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Yeap, key statement-it's not his team. He's just the head puppet.

Well if you give him credit for winning with loaded teams, you also have to give him some of the blame for losing with a less than perfect lineup.

He's not the guy I'd want to hire if I was starting up a new franchise or had a bunch of young players, but I think he's the best choice for NY (the year withstanding).

33sherman · 10-11-2005, 03:03 PM

Torre did all the right things with the bullpen during the World Series years--but then again they had a great bullpen those years, guys who always seemed to do their job(Rivera, Nelson Stanton, Lloyd, Mendoza, etc.). The past few years he hasn't had dependable guys in the bullpen, so his formula breaks down. Add that to the subpar starting pitching and they aren't as successful in the playoffs. Torre is good only as far as his good pitchers take him.

clintl · 10-11-2005, 08:39 PM

Torre has lasted 10 years without getting fired by Steinbrenner. No one else has ever come close.

Seriously, I think he was a great fit for the Yankees. He was pretty average, though, in his previous managerial stints with the Mets and Braves.

ISiddiqui · 10-11-2005, 10:22 PM

Don't forget St. Louis. He actually did decent in his 3 years with the Braves, but to be the best manager ever, you have to do it in more than one place. Torre really hasn't done that.

Young Drachma · 10-12-2005, 01:06 AM

Yeah, I'm agreeing with the comment about him not doing that great in STL. I think he's a decent manager and he's been at it a long time and I credit him for that. He'll get into the hall because of all the titles they've won, especially when the Veterans Committee is stacked and we all harken back the days of yore when the Yanks won a lot.

But...he's just above average. I don't know that I'd want him in a challenging situation say, Toronto right now.

Lathum · 10-12-2005, 03:16 AM

Torre is perfect for that team because he is willing to deflect critisizem from his players to himself

Deattribution · 10-12-2005, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

Torre is perfect for that team because he is willing to deflect critisizem from his players to himself

For a cool 8 mill a year you could could deflect feces from the restrooms to me and I'd be alright.

Blade6119 · 10-12-2005, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Don't forget St. Louis. He actually did decent in his 3 years with the Braves, but to be the best manager ever, you have to do it in more than one place. Torre really hasn't done that.

He sucked it up in STL, we fired him for a reason...La russa is infinently better then torre, any day of the week

Ramzavail · 10-12-2005, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenMonster

That would be Cashman, along with the Chacon trade.. The moves they have made the last 2 offseasons though were just plain stupid..

Wrong. When Brian Cashman signs Aaron Small for a free agent contract he isn't expecting more than a triple A pitcher. Joe Torre is the one giving him the ball vs. the Red Sox at Yankee stadium, pitching him on the road against Oakland (shutout).

The Chacon trade I'd give Cashman credit for. Not the blind signing of Aaron Small.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Um, no. Does that mean Jose Lima's 6-0 with 3 ERA in 2003 off the independent league scrap heap makes Tony Pena a genius manager (finishing 8-3 with a 4.91 after coming back from injury)?

SI

Wrong part deux. That is the worst correlation I've heard in a while. You've compared a former 20 game winner to a guy that was a cup of coffee guy for 7-8 years. A quintessential AAAA player. Even though Jose Lima started 2004 in the independent league, he had still played in the majors the previous 10 years. We aren't talking about a guy who has been on the cusp of the major leagues like Aaron Small has been.

10-11-2005, 02:31 PM	#2
rkmsuf Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2001	He's good. He didn't pick the groceries even if they are high priced groceries. He's not like super manager but no doubt he's quality. __________________ "Don't you have homes?" -- Judge Smales

10-11-2005, 02:32 PM	#4
jeff061 Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: MA	I'd take him over Francona. Yankee taint and all. __________________

10-11-2005, 02:37 PM	#6
jeff061 Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: MA	No doubt, all managers get taken to task in Boston. But I think he coddles the Millar posse, rather than telling him to STFU or even fostering a less high schoolish social structure on the team. I just don't like the attitude of the team, haven't since he came on and Millar "rose to power". __________________

10-11-2005, 02:42 PM	#10
jeff061 Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: MA	Yes I am, and I was negative about them that whole year for the same reason . I'm glad they won it, doesn't mean I can't hate the players and how the coach handles them. I don't know how Torre would handle it in Boston, I'd like to think he'd tone things down some and keep players more focused at the task at hand. Who knows though. Belichick and the Pats have spoiled me. __________________ Last edited by jeff061 : 10-11-2005 at 02:43 PM.

10-11-2005, 03:03 PM	#19
33sherman Mascot Join Date: Nov 2002	Torre did all the right things with the bullpen during the World Series years--but then again they had a great bullpen those years, guys who always seemed to do their job(Rivera, Nelson Stanton, Lloyd, Mendoza, etc.). The past few years he hasn't had dependable guys in the bullpen, so his formula breaks down. Add that to the subpar starting pitching and they aren't as successful in the playoffs. Torre is good only as far as his good pitchers take him. Last edited by 33sherman : 10-11-2005 at 03:03 PM.

10-11-2005, 02:38 PM	#7
Deattribution College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2003	Well yeah, I'd agree Torre is 'good', just hear so much how he's one if not the greatest manager ever, and I don't how you can say that about a guy who before he inherited a 100+ million dollar payroll team couldn't even win his division more than once.

10-11-2005, 02:38 PM	#9
Anthony Banned Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Astoria, NY, USA	he's overrated. how much managing of ego's in baseball does one really need to do? all you need to do is know where to bat whom in the lineup.

10-11-2005, 02:53 PM	#14
Ramzavail College Starter Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Strong Island, NY	aaron small off the scrap heap, 10-0. Case closed.

10-11-2005, 08:39 PM	#20
clintl College Starter Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Davis, CA	Torre has lasted 10 years without getting fired by Steinbrenner. No one else has ever come close. Seriously, I think he was a great fit for the Yankees. He was pretty average, though, in his previous managerial stints with the Mets and Braves.

10-11-2005, 10:22 PM	#21
ISiddiqui Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Decatur, GA	Don't forget St. Louis. He actually did decent in his 3 years with the Braves, but to be the best manager ever, you have to do it in more than one place. Torre really hasn't done that. __________________ "A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams

10-12-2005, 01:06 AM	#22
Young Drachma Dark Cloud Join Date: Apr 2001	Yeah, I'm agreeing with the comment about him not doing that great in STL. I think he's a decent manager and he's been at it a long time and I credit him for that. He'll get into the hall because of all the titles they've won, especially when the Veterans Committee is stacked and we all harken back the days of yore when the Yanks won a lot. But...he's just above average. I don't know that I'd want him in a challenging situation say, Toronto right now. __________________ Current dynasty: Up The Scots: Play To Clinch Tennis Dynasty \| OOTP Mod: Managerial Strategy Files \| GM Excel Competitive Balance Tax/Revenue Sharing Calc \| FBCB Mods on Github

10-12-2005, 03:16 AM	#23
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	Torre is perfect for that team because he is willing to deflect critisizem from his players to himself

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