Baseball Strategy Questions

[miami_fan]

Watching the ball game tonight and they commented about the Astros not having a lefthanded bat in the lineup except for the switch hitters. Now for the sake of this discussion, let's assume that a manager puts in a all right handed lineup without switch hitters because the other team is supposed start a left handed pitcher. Before the first pitch, the manager goes to the pen and makes a change to a right handed starting pitcher thus having a right handed pitcher going against an all right hand lineup. Now I am talking about playoff type situation when all the starting pitchers are rested.

First off, is ths legal?
Second, what would be the downside to this?

[lighthousekeeper]

I've often wondered about this too. Why doesn't this happen?

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Watching the ball game tonight and they commented about the Astros not having a lefthanded bat in the lineup except for the switch hitters. Now for the sake of this discussion, let's assume that a manager puts in a all right handed lineup without switch hitters because the other team is supposed start a left handed pitcher. Before the first pitch, the manager goes to the pen and makes a change to a right handed starting pitcher thus having a right handed pitcher going against an all right hand lineup. Now I am talking about playoff type situation when all the starting pitchers are rested.

First off, is ths legal?
Second, what would be the downside to this?

And if it is not legal, couldn't it be made legal by having the lefty throw one pitch and then get removed?

[Arctus]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Watching the ball game tonight and they commented about the Astros not having a lefthanded bat in the lineup except for the switch hitters. Now for the sake of this discussion, let's assume that a manager puts in a all right handed lineup without switch hitters because the other team is supposed start a left handed pitcher. Before the first pitch, the manager goes to the pen and makes a change to a right handed starting pitcher thus having a right handed pitcher going against an all right hand lineup. Now I am talking about playoff type situation when all the starting pitchers are rested.

First off, is ths legal?
Second, what would be the downside to this?

Pretty sure the announced pitcher has to face one batter. It would be legal to make the swich after that.

Downside is that this would create havok with your rotation and/or pen. Also, in my opinion the lefty / righty advantage is a bit overrated. Sitting your (presumably) best available pitcher down to get a R/L matchup advantage in the early innings probably does not make sense.

Any for whatever reason (I don't know why) righties don't suffer as badly against righties as some lefties do against lefties.

[kcchief19]

Perfectly legal. That day's pitcher is not official until the lineup card is submitted to the umpires just before the game. The pitcher listed as the starter doesn't have to throw a single pitch before a substitution, but once the new pitcher comes in the original starting pitcher is done for the game. This is no different than when you will sometimes see a team bring in say a LH relief pitcher to face a LH hitter and the other team sends RH up and the other team brings in a RH without the LH reliever throwing a pitch.

How would you do it? Tough. I'll dismiss concerns about pitchers going on short rest and assume we're talking about game one of the World Series when you're coming off a four-game sweep and everybody is rested. To make it work, you'd have to have the fake starter go through the motions of starting -- take part in pregame warmups, throwing in the bullpen, etc. -- while the real starting pitcher would have to do the same thing in hiding.

There are plenty of reasons not to do it. First, it's a tough way to treat your pitchers at a critical time. Why waste what we assume is a valuable starter by having him fake warm-up and not be available until maybe game three? You'll also be perceived as a jerk; this isn't one of the so-called "unwritten rules" of the game, but it wouldn't be perceived by most baseball people as strategic, but rather underhanded at best.

And it could backfire. If Tony LaRussa pulls this in game one in St. Louis, first time the starting pitcher comes to the plate he's getting the ol' No. 1 thrown up his ass.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

How would you do it? ...First, it's a tough way to treat your pitchers at a critical time. Why waste what we assume is a valuable starter by having him fake warm-up and not be available until maybe game three?

I don't see it being tough on the pitcher, if they knew in advance it was coming. It's not like pitchers put their arms in the freezer on every day except the day on which they start, so a few warmup tosses isn't going to hurt. Also, there's no rule (that I know of) that the pitcher needs to warm up in a visible location. If the manager were to hide their warming-up pitcher as a general practice, then the opposing manager would always have to guess.

Originally Posted by kcchief19

You'll also be perceived as a jerk; this isn't one of the so-called "unwritten rules" of the game, but it wouldn't be perceived by most baseball people as strategic, but rather underhanded at best.

That just screams to me as something that is ripe for change, then.

Originally Posted by kcchief19

And it could backfire. If Tony LaRussa pulls this in game one in St. Louis, first time the starting pitcher comes to the plate he's getting the ol' No. 1 thrown up his ass.

great - ups his OBP.

[lighthousekeeper]

dola...watch out UBL. I may pull this trick if PIT continues to lose.

[sterlingice]

Obviously something you cant' really do during the regular season because of rest. I suppose you could do it in the playoffs. But I think there would be morale issues with having your manager resort to something so "gimmicky" to try to gain an advantage.

SI

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Arctus

Any for whatever reason (I don't know why) righties don't suffer as badly against righties as some lefties do against lefties.

I've often heard is has to do with the way lefties' breaking balls break.

Also, there's a larger number of righty pitchers in the bigs. And players presumably face an even higher percentage of righties as they begin their progression from high school to college to the pros, so they are just more used to hitting off righties. I would also think that the average BA of all lefties versus RHP would be larger than righties versus LHP for the same reason.

Expanding on what you said before...how often do you see a good-hitting righty held out of a game because a RHP is starting? But once a lefty is pitching, the whole platoon system comes into play.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

I don't see it being tough on the pitcher, if they knew in advance it was coming. It's not like pitchers put their arms in the freezer on every day except the day on which they start, so a few warmup tosses isn't going to hurt. Also, there's no rule (that I know of) that the pitcher needs to warm up in a visible location. If the manager were to hide their warming-up pitcher as a general practice, then the opposing manager would always have to guess.

The way pitchers are babied these days, it would be. You don't want a starting pitcher to throw even on the side the day before a start unless you want him to be rusty. This question is very hypothetical because there are very few situations where this would be a viable option. The toughest thing is that it would be hard to get your pitcher warmed up in secret, especially on the road. All in all, it's a low percentage play for a marginal gain.

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

great - ups his OBP.

Alright, technically not his ass. It's going on the arm or shoulder, preferably the elbow. And if it's in an AL ballpark, Pujols is getting one at his knee. Again, a lot of risk for very little gain in strategic advantage.

[clintl]

Here's why you don't do it in the playoffs - you want your rotation set up so that your best pitchers are getting the most starts. Talent is much, much more important than lefty/righty matchups.

[st.cronin]

It's been done, I think, twice in my life. When Leyland was managing the Pirates, they met the Reds in the playoffs in I think 1990. The Reds that year platooned at a number of positions. Leyland started Ted Power (a right handed reliever), then switched to Zane Smith (lefthanded starter) in the 2nd or 3rd inning. I think he actually lost the game.

It happened one other time, but I forget the details... I have a feeling Bobby Cox was the culprit. It really only makes sense against teams that have a lot of platoons, and with todays seven man bullpens, there aren't many teams that do that.

[Arctus]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

This is no different than when you will sometimes see a team bring in say a LH relief pitcher to face a LH hitter and the other team sends RH up and the other team brings in a RH without the LH reliever throwing a pitch.

I'm almost positive that in the situation above, the LH reliever would be compelled to face at least one batter.

[lighthousekeeper]

I think this is just a sign that i've been playing too much ootp lately.

[Vince]

Originally Posted by Arctus

Any for whatever reason (I don't know why) righties don't suffer as badly against righties as some lefties do against lefties.

A big claim made is that right-handed batters can 'pick up' the ball quicker against a left-handed pitcher, because his release point isn't as far 'over the shoulder' of the batter as a right-handed pitcher from his perspective in the batter's box.

The idea being that a right-handed batter has to look further over the left shoulder to pick up the release point of a right-handed pitcher, as opposed to a left-handed pitcher, who releases the ball further out 'over the plate.'

A bit much, I think, but as Ozzie Guillen said yesterday (re: "Dropped" Third Strike), "It's a game of inches."

[Breeze]

If in this scenario you are talking about a game 1, you're also talking about pulling arguably your best pitcher out of the game before he ever throws a pitch.

The pitcher you are going to bring in the game would also have to be warming up (you wouldn't bring him in cold - relief pitchers are only given 8 - i think- pitches before the game resumes) so the other manager would see him in the pin throwing pitches before the game starts. The only way to aviod having the "Relief" pitcher make his presence known by warming up, would be to have the starter fake an injury. If a pitcher leaves due to an injury, the reliever that replaces him is granted all the time needed to warm up.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by Breeze

If in this scenario you are talking about a game 1, you're also talking about pulling arguably your best pitcher out of the game before he ever throws a pitch.

The pitcher you are going to bring in the game would also have to be warming up (you wouldn't bring him in cold - relief pitchers are only given 8 - i think- pitches before the game resumes) so the other manager would see him in the pin throwing pitches before the game starts. The only way to aviod having the "Relief" pitcher make his presence known by warming up, would be to have the starter fake an injury. If a pitcher leaves due to an injury, the reliever that replaces him is granted all the time needed to warm up.

what i'm saying is convert your pen into a pen that cannot be viewed from outsiders. and your not going to lose your best starter for the 1st game because your going to tell everyone that you're going to be starting your #2 starter for game #1, before the switcheroo.

[oykib]

I read this same scenario in a book before (or was it a Neyer article?). Anyway, the conclusion was that it's basically a gentleman's agreement. Without it, everyone'd be fucked.

And the reason lefties have such a tough time hitting lefties is because they never see them. All things being equal it would be the same as righties vs. righties. But it's not just a matter of the ball breaking away from you. There is also the familiarity factor.

Righties grow up hitting righties, but so do lefties.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Arctus

I'm almost positive that in the situation above, the LH reliever would be compelled to face at least one batter.

I'm fairly certain that's the case, too. This is why you don't see a never-ending change of hitters/pitchers. It basically ends with "hitter announced, manager pulls pitcher, other manager pulls hitter." The pitcher is stuck in the game to face at least one batter. It's basically a gamble - if the hitter is an everyday player, chances are the LH/LH or RH/RH mathup is going to stick. If you bring in a LH to face a disposable LH hitter, then the other manger may very well pinch hit for the LH and give you a worse matchup than you would have had before the initial pitching change. Presumably, these guys are paid enough to think that scenario all the way through, though. But I've seen it backfire.

[sterlingice]

I'm not sure that's true. I'm pretty sure I've seen games where one manager uses a reliever as a decoy- sends out a righty so that the opposing manager puts up a lefty pinch hitter. Then goes back out to the mound and brings in a lefty. The bigger issue here is that if you just put a guy out as a decoy, you waste him and can't use him again in the game so you don't want to do that too often.

SI

[clintl]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I'm not sure that's true. I'm pretty sure I've seen games where one manager uses a reliever as a decoy- sends out a righty so that the opposing manager puts up a lefty pinch hitter. Then goes back out to the mound and brings in a lefty. The bigger issue here is that if you just put a guy out as a decoy, you waste him and can't use him again in the game so you don't want to do that too often.

SI

That only happens at the beginning of an inning with a pitcher than finished the previous inning. Once entered into a game, a pitcher has to face one batter.

[Logan]

A pitcher has to face one batter. Done.

[stevew]

I remember the Phils used to have this one guy that could alledgedly "Switch pitch." A guy that could do so convincingly, would be a tremendous asset.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by Logan

A pitcher has to face one batter. Done.

Here's the MLB rulebook:

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/of...s/foreword.jsp

Find where it says a relief pitcher must face one hitter and you're a winner. This has all the rules of baseball, from how long the pitcher's plate must be to how many different ways there is to call a balk. It also has the rules for how to make subsitutions for a DH.

A manager is only permitted one trip to the mound per batter. If he makes a second trip to the mound with the same pitcher and same batter, then the manager can be ejected and the pitcher must face the hitter until that hitter leaves the game, is retired or reaches base, then must leave the game. But that is not what we are talking about in this case.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

Here's the MLB rulebook:

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/of...s/foreword.jsp

Find where it says a relief pitcher must face one hitter and you're a winner. This has all the rules of baseball, from how long the pitcher's plate must be to how many different ways there is to call a balk. It also has the rules for how to make subsitutions for a DH.

A manager is only permitted one trip to the mound per batter. If he makes a second trip to the mound with the same pitcher and same batter, then the manager can be ejected and the pitcher must face the hitter until that hitter leaves the game, is retired or reaches base, then must leave the game. But that is not what we are talking about in this case.

does the manager have to come to the mound to pull out the pitcher though (i don't think so cuz i feel like i've seen pitching coaches do it). Cuz that would mean the same thing...

[Arctus]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

Here's the MLB rulebook:

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/of...s/foreword.jsp

Find where it says a relief pitcher must face one hitter and you're a winner. This has all the rules of baseball, from how long the pitcher's plate must be to how many different ways there is to call a balk. It also has the rules for how to make subsitutions for a DH.

A manager is only permitted one trip to the mound per batter. If he makes a second trip to the mound with the same pitcher and same batter, then the manager can be ejected and the pitcher must face the hitter until that hitter leaves the game, is retired or reaches base, then must leave the game. But that is not what we are talking about in this case.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/of...minaries_3.jsp
3.05

(a) The pitcher named in the batting order handed the umpire in chief, as provided in Rules 4.01 (a) and 4.01 (b), shall pitch to the first batter or any substitute batter until such batter is put out or reaches first base, unless the pitcher sustains injury or illness which, in the judgment of the umpire in chief, incapacitates him from pitching. (b) If the pitcher is replaced, the substitute pitcher shall pitch to the batter then at bat, or any substitute batter, until such batter is put out or reaches first base, or until the offensive team is put out, unless the substitute pitcher sustains injury or illness which, in the umpire in chief's judgment, incapacitates him for further play as a pitcher. (c) If an improper substitution is made for the pitcher, the umpire shall direct the proper pitcher to return to the game until the provisions of this rule are fulfilled. If the improper pitcher is permitted to pitch, any play that results is legal. The improper pitcher becomes the proper pitcher as soon as he makes his first pitch to the batter, or as soon as any runner is put out. If a manager attempts to remove a pitcher in violation of Rule 3.05 (c) the umpire shall notify the manager of the offending club that it cannot be done. If, by chance, the umpire in chief has, through oversight, announced the incoming improper pitcher, he should still correct the situation before the improper pitcher pitches. Once the improper pitcher delivers a pitch he becomes the proper pitcher.

What do I win?