DeBate: Notre Dame's Decision To Give Weis $40 M Is At Least Somewhat Racist...

[Chief Rum]

Okay, ifier topic today then yesterday. Let's keep it intellectual, guys. I know you all can have a civil discussion about race without it becoming a flame war.

So here it is: Weis goes 5-2, with his best win coming against a decent, but not great Michigan team. His best game comes in a last second loss to powerful USC. He gets a record-breaking, 10-year, $40 M contract. Weis is, of course, white.

Ty Willingham goes 8-0 to start his career in South Bend, including six 2002 bowl teams. The record is better, the schedule more impressive, the predecessor (Davies) more horrid. He doesn't get anything near what Weis gets. And TyWill is black.

So did race play a part at all in the decisions (or non-decisions) to give these coaches extensions?

Debate...

[SackAttack]

Willingham went from the Pac-10 to Notre Dame and found immediate success before floundering.

Weis went from the three-time Super Bowl champion Patriots to Notre Dame and found immediate success, including nearly knocking off a team that hadn't lost in more than two seasons.

My first question would be, what was the NFL buzz surrounding each guy? Was Willingham being cited as a potential defector to the NFL? Did he have previous NFL experience that might've made him more "willing" (rim shot) to make the jump?

I don't think race matters much here. I think it comes down to Notre Dame made a change to try to bring back the glory, and with Weis having the NFL pedigree *and* doing a pretty damn good job of that with a team that:

a) nobody expected to be this good, given recent seasons, and
b) was completely made up of players he hadn't recruited,

that the risk of him leaving for the NFL was greater than with Willingham. Somebody else pointed out on Saturday, given the comparatively low NFL buyout he previously had, the extension was probably done to raise the buyout and reduce the risk of a Weis departure.

I don't think Willingham presented that same risk (and you can probably argue whether race played a factor in the limited or nonexistent NFL buzz around him at the time), and so he wasn't shown the money.

[Schmidty]

This will most likely turn ugly. Before it gets that way, here's my simple response:

No, it wasn't racist, it was just stupid.

[RailsFS]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

This will most likely turn ugly. Before it gets that way, here's my simple response:

No, it wasn't racist, it was just stupid.

....what he said.

[Wasabiak]

Michigan sucks. The lowly Gophers beat them, at Ann Arbor, for God's sack!

Racist? Who knows. Name recognition seems to go a long way in sports. Stupid? I would say premature is a better word.

[RailsFS]

I'd still say stupid, just based off the length of the deal. I completely understand locking him up to raise the NFL buyout money. I also understand that it gives them a premier head coach (at least in terms of visibility). I do not understand the length at all. Why not make it a shorter deal just in case, you know, he pulls a "Ty?"

[SirFozzie]

Fairly unstupid (there were NFL teams already sniffing around him, and if hetook the time to shut down all the rumors, it would allow other coaches to use it against ND in recruiting. And no way in hell is it racist, except for people who want to make it.

If this team is because of WIllingham, how come they got bombed so many times last year? It's not like the team suddenly changed, except for the boss.

[Solecismic]

It's a shame race has to enter into this discussion, though obviously it has among the press.

All this is going to do is erect an additional barrier for black coaches, because now athletic directors know they can't fire a black coach who isn't working out without being labelled as racist.

[Ragone]

The guy who wrote the article that spawned this is a f'n idiot and a racist.. that being said i agree totally with Jim on this one..

[cthomer5000]

DeBate

Who is this DeBate you speak of?

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Wasabiak

Michigan sucks. The lowly Gophers beat them, at Ann Arbor, for God's sack!

Racist? Who knows. Name recognition seems to go a long way in sports. Stupid? I would say premature is a better word.

I am going to go with the premature crowd. I don't think that ANY other school would have given that sort of extension to ANY other coach.

[Ksyrup]

That article is terrible. I guess there has been a rush to claim Ralph Wiley's throne of "Mr. Racism in Sports," because that's about all I read from black "journalists" these days. Give it a rest.

First of all, I agree that giving Weis such a contract this early is stupid. However, I don't think we can judge Weis vs. Willingham solely on their records after 8 games. Surely there are things that go on in an organization that no one outside of it sees. And my guess is that Willingham the administrator and recruiter didn't look as good as 8-0 suggests. Weis, on the other hand, probably looks far better than 5-2 suggests. So I don't think the decisions on both of these guys had all that much to do with their records. That may have been all Willingham had, and when that became mediocre, there was no reason to keep him.

I have no clue what happened and why they favor Weise over Willingham like they do, but I'm not going to factor in racism as the first reason - especially without a single shred of evidence.

[Samdari]

The very important piece of information that this argument often ignores is that Weis had a very high profile in the "future NFL head coaches" list before he came to Notre Dame, whereas Willingham did not. That was a larger factor in the decision to offer Weis the ridiculous contract than race. Not that I think race did not play a part at that university.

[lynchjm24]

If supply and demand is racist, then yes, the contract is racist.

[panerd]

I must be on Chief Rum's ignore list!


Almost the exact same question

[DanGarion]

I think they hastily extended the contract without any real reason to do it. Make the guy have a couple seasons of recruiting see if he's all he's supposed to be. Ty wasn't given a fair shot, lots of players didn't agree with the move of letting him go. Weis hasn't done anything yet, but he gets a huge contract, it confuses me.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Fairly unstupid (there were NFL teams already sniffing around him, and if hetook the time to shut down all the rumors, it would allow other coaches to use it against ND in recruiting. And no way in hell is it racist, except for people who want to make it.

What he said.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Fairly unstupid (there were NFL teams already sniffing around him, and if hetook the time to shut down all the rumors, it would allow other coaches to use it against ND in recruiting. And no way in hell is it racist, except for people who want to make it.

It still doesn't make that much sense, though, to give the guy that much money so soon. I understand the problem of other teams using the "he may leave that s chool at any moment" ploy when recruiting, but this just seems to go beyond the bounds of reason, at least at this point in his career. FSU had to do the same thing with Bobby Bowden a year or so ago, when the rumors of his retirement were apparently affected recruiting, and they gave him a 7 year extension or something like that. The difference, IMO, is that even if Bowden doesn't last half that long, he's worth that money for everything he's done for the school. Weis could be a hot NFL guy now, but in 3 years fall flat on his ass and be looking to join Matt Dougherty at FAU. Hey, it could happen. And they'd still be on the hook for around $25 million. Insane!

[gstelmack]

An interesting note on Willingham:

Originally Posted by http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=1935138

Notre Dame's loss to USC marked the fifth time the Irish lost by 31 points or more under Willingham -- including three against the rival Trojans. By comparison, the Irish under Davie had just one such loss; Lou Holtz and Dan Devine had none.

I think if Weis runs into the same troubles, they won't keep him 10 years either. The extension was to keep him bolting to the NFL as mentioned here.

What I can't find are contract terms for both contracts. Is Weis getting a raise after one good year, while Ty didn't? That might be more telling in this case, although I suspect that at least some additional money must be coming Weis' way for giving up on the NFL opportunities.

[Samdari]

That's certainly an interesting note, Greg, but irrelevant to the discussion of how 6-2 Weis was rewarded and an 8-0 Willingham was not. None of those losses happened in the first 7-8 games, during which Willingham's teams outperformed Weis', but Weis was given the huge money deal instead of Willingham. On that basis alone, it is possible to conclude that the respective color of their skins was a factor in such a decision.

Does anyone else think that Weis (through third parties, obviously) manufactured rumors of NFL interest a bit in order to get big money?

[kcchief19]

I agree that the biggest difference between the two situations is that Weis has much more established credentials for going to the NFL and was going to get serious considerations and offers. If Notre Dame thinks he is the coach he appears to be, they needed to move not only to lock him up but also to remove the ability of opposing coaches in recruiting of tellling players not to go to Notre Dame because Weis is headed toward the NFL. On those counts, it certainly makes sense.

I believe race played no role in giving a long-term contract to Weis. The question is whether race played a role in not giving a long-term contract to Willingham. Like I said last week, I can't say 100 percent that race didn't play a role in the differences between the two situations. There have been too many accounts over the years that several influential boosters were unhappy Notre Dame hired Willingham because he was black. Given that I know people who were unhappy or made derogatory comments about the Willingham hiring based on race, I have not doubt believing those reports to have some basis in fact. God knows Notre Dame also suffered through mediocrity with some of its previous white coaches before pulling the trigger than they did with Willingham, which only adds to the question.

I do agree with Jim's point. I think bringing up race in cases where it doesn't apply does run the risk of making future ADs think that hiring a black coach is problematic because you'll be accused of being racist if you fire them. Unfortunately, I think the only short-term answer to that is to get over it. You don't hire and fire people because of race and if you suffer the consequences at least you do it knowing you did the right thing. I realize that's a utopian belief, but it's what has to happen for the situation to get better in the long run.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Does anyone else think that Weis (through third parties, obviously) manufactured rumors of NFL interest a bit in order to get big money?

Weis almost died a few years ago from stomach-stapling surgery in an effort to make himself more presentable for NFL head-coaching opportunities, as he was told that was pretty much the only thing holding him back. There have been rumors swirling around him for years.

So, no.

[Wolfpack]

I can't say race would be a main factor in the different treatment between Willingham and Weis. As others have noted, Weis had an NFL pedigree and therefore was susceptible to being hired away by an NFL team. Willingham didn't. Frankly, I think the ten-year extension was done to make sure he didn't leave after one. However, make no mistake, if an NFL team wanted him, they could certainly pony up to get him. By the same token, if Weiss suddenly flops, there are lots of deep pockets at Notre Dame who'd probably afford his buyout. In a twisted sense, this actually gives both Weis and Notre Dame a chance to find out whether they are actually right for each other.

BTW, it does not hurt in the slightest that he's an alum. Willingham may have been able to appreciate the history and tradition, but an alum would have a deeper connection to the school than any typical coach and thus would have a tougher time going to another job. It is probably why there have been a large number of hires over the last several years where coaches have, in effect, "gone home". Now, the jury's still out on whether these alumni coaches actually are worth their salt (very mixed results from what I've seen), but I'm sure ND wants to keep Weis long enough to find out if he is it for them.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Weis almost died a few years ago from stomach-stapling surgery in an effort to make himself more presentable for NFL head-coaching opportunities, as he was told that was pretty much the only thing holding him back. There have been rumors swirling around him for years.

So, no.

It is not the interest in him I find puzzling, it is the timing.

NFL teams rarely pursue coaches for next season in the middle of the current season. At least if they do, we don't hear about it. Someone leaked the information (true or not) that NFL teams were courting Weis for next season to the media. In general, the source of such leaks can be traced to who benefits from having the leaked information be public. In this case, the only beneficiary to such info being public would be Weis.

Perhaps manufactured was the wrong word. Try leaked. And since nobody would ever confirm the information, perhaps exaggerated (at least the level to which he was being pursued now) would not be too farfetched either.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Wolfpack

if an NFL team wanted him, they could certainly pony up to get him. By the same token, if Weiss suddenly flops, there are lots of deep pockets at Notre Dame who'd probably afford his buyout.

In a way, you point out the ridiculousness of contract extensions for college coaches. Weiss is in no way guaranteed over 35 million dollars. I would not be surprised to find that the buyout either way is less than 2 million.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Samdari

It is not the interest in him I find puzzling, it is the timing.

NFL teams rarely pursue coaches for next season in the middle of the current season. At least if they do, we don't hear about it. Someone leaked the information (true or not) that NFL teams were courting Weis for next season to the media. In general, the source of such leaks can be traced to who benefits from having the leaked information be public. In this case, the only beneficiary to such info being public would be Weis.

Perhaps manufactured was the wrong word. Try leaked. And since nobody would ever confirm the information, perhaps exaggerated (at least the level to which he was being pursued now) would not be too farfetched either.

What leaks? As I understand it, there have been several discussions about coaches that would be fired, and speculation that Weiss would be high on the list. Since there has been speculation about Weiss for the last 3 years, how is this any different than any other NFL season?

Did I miss a specific leak?

This still sounds like Weiss is doing a good job, several NFL coaches aren't (including it looking like Martz has been essentially fired in the middle of the season), and Notre Dame moved before an NFL franchise could get to him. As pointed out, this is especially critical for recruiting.

[scooper]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Not that I think race did not play a part at that university.

Why? What about the history of Notre Dame implies racism?

Was it the fact that they hired a black coach in the first place when only three out of the other 116 teams had one?

Was it maybe ND's history in social activism? Look up the book about Notre Dame vs. the Klan. It might open your eyes a bit.

Is it the fact that ND graduates their African-American athletes at the same high rate they graduate their white athletes? Suggestion-do a little homework and look up that rate for your favorite college football program. I'll bet ND shines brighter. They want ALL of their athletes to succeed in the classroom-regardless of color.

Maybe it was Ara Parsegian pulling his team out of hotels in the south when they wouldn't let ND's black players stay there.

Nope, they fired a black coach who was blown out more times in three years than the entire history of ND football. They then rewarded the current coach who had NFL rumors swirling about them. Those damned racists.

Jim's right. This Whitlock's unfounded musings will only hurt African American coaches in the future.

[Raiders Army]

Charlie Weis is white?

[scooper]

I posted this in the other Weis thread before I say this one. It is from NDnation.com.

The Rock 11/2



And the dumbest man covering football in America is?

- Adam Schefter
- Jason Whitlock
- The fan who thought storing his hot grill under his car's gas tank was a great way to keep it out of the rain

And the winner is?

There are no winners above, but at least the last guy had a flair for the dramatic.

Seriously, we're getting all of these emails about Whitlock's "Cry Racism" column; a piece so bereft of sense or objectivity it looks like a SNL parody

This one's not hard. There are two sure ways to get someone to respond to a column:

1. - Cry Racism
2. - Attack Notre Dame.

Congratulations, Mr. Whitlock you hit the exacta, but unfortunately you're gaining eyes for a column that shows you as either a hack journalist, a race baiting opportunist or both. I felt slimy just reading it.

"Did you know" that Whitlock comes from the same school (Ball State) as resident Chicago hack David Haugh? Does Ball State have a minor in subjective emoting masquerading as writing? I digress (again.)

In the spirit of multiculturalism, I'll let a collegiate coalition of fans rebut this pile of steaming dung he tries to spin as a column as I ain't wasting my time on such a juvenile rant. You know your column is pathetic when you force two schools that don't care for Notre Dame to defend it. Here are internet posts from a Michigan fan (seriously,) a Washington fan (yup) and Notre Dame student. The Rock gets a pseudo day off.


MICHIGAN FAN

Brian (from mgoblog) responds to The Supreme Fatty's column. Brian's no fan of Notre Dame, either. This is great, though:


And G@#$ d@#& him even further for making me write this missive about effing Notre Dame, but I have to. Jason Whitlock wrote this garbage...
Weis' new 10-year contract, reportedly worth between $30 million and $40 million ... that strikes me as racist.

... so I am compelled to respond. Because Jason Whitlock's an asshole. Because there is a certain subset of black journalists that have carved out careers exclusively by calling people racist. Because there's absolutely nothing wrong with anything Notre Dame has done in the way it's handled Tyrone Willingham.

Why was Willingham fired when Bob Davie was given five years to fail in? Because of Bob Davie. If you reversed the two Notre Dame careers of the bumbling head coaches, Willingham would have gotten five and Davie three. By the time the Willingham era was spiralling into year three of total ineptitude, Notre Dame was over a decade removed from prominence. They had a short fuse, and--this is key--it had everything to do with what happened on the field and in recruiting and nothing to do with Willingham's race, unless you think that Ron Zook is passing.

Tyrone Willingham was Zooking Notre Dame. Anyone who saw his teams play could see that his 8-0 starting record was built on the shifting sand of fluke turnovers and fortuitous bounces. When the bounces stopped coming, so did the wins, and so did the recruits. The real reason Willingham went down in flames will hopefully be apparent in exactly two years, when the fruits of Davie's labors and Willingham's one good class evaporate and the Irish are left with a motely crew of handicapped midgets and Norwegian whalers on the offensive and defensive lines. The writing was on the wall; each year of Willingham's continued employment would be paid back with two additional years of onfield ineptitude. Believe me, I pay more attention to this than you do to your feed trough, Whitlock. As an opposing fan I gloried in the idea of Years 4 and 5 of Willingham. I am the canary in the coalmine.

Then Weis comes in, immediately starts racking up a metric ton of recruits that will have to play very early, demonstrates that Brady Quinn is not in fact functionally retarded, and nearly beats OMG USC to send the nation into a tizzy. So when NFL.com publishes a very public, very plausible story that a former NFL coordinator who had been angling for an NFL job previous to taking a collegiate one and is apparently experiencing great success at his new home could bolt to the NFL, it is a wise and PR-savvy thing to make a sweeping, meaningless gesture, which there's a 99% chance this is.

Whitlock, you sanctimonious idiot, have you ever considered the fact that "buyouts" exist? I guarantee you that Notre Dame has an option to buy Weis out of his ten billion year contract that is almost identical to the one they had before they redid it. Even if they've unwisely tied themselves to Weis for ten years basd on seven games it's besides the point. Weis' fat new contract is unprecedented in the history of college football. No coach has ever gotten a ten year, 40 million dollar contract after seven games before.

So riddle me this: how was Notre Dame's decision to treat Willingham exactly like any other coach in history in his first year racist?

Exactly.

Whitlock's constant cries of racism obscure the fact that the person doing the most damage to black coaches here is Whitlock himself. What does he think he's doing for black coaches around the country? Don't think for a second that any other football power is going to hire a black coach without thinking long and hard about the repercussions if things go awry. No one wants to get pilloried unfairly as racists by you and your ilk (Scoop Jackson on line 2) when the coach gets fired or doesn't get an extension or just has a bad day. As long as "black coach" is synonymous for "giant target for media assholes," teams with success will reasonably avoid them like the plague, leaving the publicity-seeking Mississippi States and New Mexico States of the world to hire them into death jobs and then fire them from their death jobs.

But I guess Whitlock has made a career out of this crap. He's a "controversial" idiot for money. This is what you're doing, Jason: you're selling out black coaches across the country at the behest of The Man so you can get your sweaty paws on some loot. You're the Uncle Tom of college football.


WASHINGTON FAN

1. It sure seems odd to label as "racist" the same people that hired the minority coach in the first place. Let me guess, it was some master conspiracy to weaken the black coaching fraternity by hiring and them prematurely firing the guy?

2. These racists offered to let him keep him job if he would make changes in his coaching staff, and he decided to do otherwise.

3. The net scoring margin (points scored vs. points allowed) in Weis's first seven games is larger (i.e., better) than in Ty's first eight games, even at 5-2 vs. 8-0. It has been proven in the baseball context that your ability to do the things that lead to wins is a better predictor of future W-L than current W-L. In other words, the team that has scored 500 runs and allowed 450 is more likely to have a better record in the future than a team that has scored 475 and allowed 450, even if the second team currently has a better record. Given that Weis's team has shown itself to be better at scoring points relative to their points allowed that Willingham's first team, it is reasonable to expect that Weis's future record will be better than Willingham's record after his 8-0 start.

4. MOST IMPORTANTLY, there are many reports indicating that NFL teams will/would come after Weis in the offseason. This was not the case with Ty. EVEN IF THE RUMORS ARE NOT TRUE, the mere fact of the rumors themselves were enough to hurt ND recruiting. ND had to put a stop to the rumors. To the extent that ND believes Weis is a good coach and they didn't want to lose him, and to the extent that they believed recruiting would suffer otherwise, the extension was smart.

NOTRE DAME FAN

"Because Willingham was far more impressive in the first two months of his initial season than Weis has been in his, and all Tyrone got was a pat on the back."

-In Willingham's first year, the Irish offense was anemic. Notre Dame ranked No. 109 in the nation in scoring. We won games on smoke and mirrors, not well-executed plays. Furthermore, there is a reason NFL teams wanted Weis and not Willingham. It's not because of skin color; it's because Weis considered by most to be an offensive genius, whereas Willingham ran neither the offense or defense on his teams. In fact, he was known as a motivator, yet couldn't get his team "up" to play Boston College in the ninth game of the 2002 season or in the opener against BYU last September.

"Charlie Weis has not won one football game that he wasn't supposed to."

-Notre Dame was 3.5-point underdogs against Pittsburgh, and the line was more than a touchdown in Michigan's favor in Week 2.

"Weis' greatest accomplishment so far is that he led Notre Dame to a close loss against USC."

-No, Weis' greatest accomplishment so far is proving that Notre Dame CAN succeed on the football field without relinquishing its academic and conduct standards. He took the 80th best offense in the country last year and turned it into a top-10 offense, as the Irish are averaging 38 points per game. What makes this even more astounding is the players in Weis' system. Every single starter on the Irish offense was on the team last year, but Willingham failed to develop their skills.

"The Great Weis Hope is beating marginal teams with a Willingham-recruited quarterback -- Brady Quinn -- so talented that some NFL draft experts suggest he would be taken ahead of Heisman Trophy winner Matt Leinart.
Yes, Weis is doing a nice job working with the offensive talent Willingham recruited. But while Willingham inherited offensive personnel recruited to run the football, Weis inherited players recruited to operate in a pro-style passing offense."

-This is the best case under which to indict Willingham. He failed miserably in developing potential. Junior Jeff Samardzija is second in the country this year with 11 touchdown receptions. Last year, he was behind the following on the Irish depth chart: Maurice Stovall, Rhema McKnight, Matt Shelton, Carlyle Holiday, and Chase Anastasio. Who? Exactly. Willingham and offensive coordinator Bill Diedrick (now an unpaid consultant with the Calgary Stampeders) were so inept at evaluating talent that they allowed one of the best receivers in the country to waste two years of eligibility, as Samardzija caught just 24 passes and no touchdowns total in limited action over two years. Brady Quinn went from 50-percent-completion-percentage bust to Heisman-hopeful and future NFL star in just seven games under Weis. Willingham and Diedrick nearly ruined both Samardzija and Quinn's chances at the NFL. Only thanks to a good decision by University President Fr. John Jenkins and the Board of Trustees did these class acts get the coaching they deserved.

"In case you've forgotten, in 2002, Tyrone ran up an 8-0 record against Maryland, Purdue, Michigan, Michigan State, Stanford, Pittsburgh, Air Force and Florida State. Six of those teams - all but Stanford and Michigan State -- played in bowl games that year. The combined record, including bowl games, for those eight clubs was 60-43."

-True, but the Irish failed to score an offensive touchdown until the third game of the season. Once again, smoke and mirrors. When a true test came against Southern California later that season, Willingham showed exactly where he would lead the Irish in a fight against the best team in the country - to a 31-point loss. Asked about the three consecutive 31-point victories his Trojans had over us, Pete Carroll said it best after the epic Oct. 15 game in Notre Dame: "Yeah - I think those days are over."

"Weis just needs to earn it, like everyone else. Weis and his handlers shouldn't get away with floating the story about his $1.5 million buyout and how that makes Notre Dame vulnerable to an NFL team stealing him. The media shouldn't act like Notre Dame had no choice but to hand Weis a new deal."

-You prove yourself to be completely ignorant as to how the story got out with this line. Here's the deal: An NFL.com writer, who also happened to graduate from the University of Michigan, wrote an unsubstantiated, uncorroborated story that said "several" NFL teams were calling Notre Dame asking about a potential buy-out clause. Adam Schefter never called Weis, never called his agent, and never called anyone from the University. Athletic Director Kevin White and associate Athletic Director John Heisler had the foresight to realize how such a story could cripple recruiting (another subject I'll touch on later). They initiated talks with Weis and signed the extension to help the program and minimize recruiting damage. This didn't happen under Willingham because not a single team from the NFL expressed interest in buying out his contract. Thus far, Weis has filled 19 of 25 available spots in the recruiting class for next year. He got his top two quarterbacks and his top running back recruit. He's waiting on a few offensive linemen and speedy defenders. Rumors about him going to the NFL do not help his cause. If you think Weis floated the story, you need to accuse him of lying. In his press conference he said that he thought it was an unnecessary distraction and didn't want to deal with it. In regards to your attacks on Weis personally, I will bring up another line...

"If the New York Giants or any other NFL team decides it wants Weis as its coach, there's no amount of money that is going to stand in the way of that getting done. Only Weis can stop that deal by saying he'd prefer to remain a college coach."

-Weis has done just that. Making an unsupported claim that he floated the NFL rumors demeans the man and insults his character. Since December 12, he has shown one characteristic above all - to be true to his word. He said the turnaround wouldn't take as long as the media expected, and he proved himself right. He said he would bring new life into the program, and he has. He promised a dying boy a pass right, and he delivered. He said he came here for his family and to coach Notre Dame through his 11-year-old son's college days, and I have every reason to believe him.

"Forgive me for not being shocked that Weis is getting points out of all that mature, experienced talent Willingham left behind."

-Last year, Samardzija was hardly used. "Mature" and "experienced" don't apply. "Underutilized" and "underdeveloped" do. The same goes for standout tight end Anthony Fasano. I don't understand how you can dedicate a whole column to branding a University as racist without knowing all the facts. Don't you understand the reason students here like me get so riled up when you say this is because how much we believe in virtues of equality and rightness. Racism smacks in the face of such virtues, and I certainly believe I am be above that. My sheer hatred for racism makes my anger even more when you accuse my university of such actions. Am I racist for supporting his firing? Do I extol the virtues of the Old South because I thought a man was a poor football coach? Am I a burden to society because I think I could better run a football team than Tyrone Willingham but not than Charlie Weis?

"Weis and his advisors reached the conclusion that the Great Weis Hope outperformed his contract. So Weis and Notre Dame concocted an excuse for the South Bend skies to rain money, and the fawning, lazy, hypocritical media co-signed for it."

-Sir, you ignore facts, insult a great man, and displayed a lack of integrity that the man you demean would never. If you don't understand how despicable such an action is, then you need to do some soul-searching. Charlie Weis is a public figure, and so are you, so both are open for criticism. The only difference is that if we were all were like him, truth would abound. If we were all like you, truth would play second-fiddle to headlines and hatred.

The Rock reminds Mr. Whitlock to live by the ol' axiom: "Weis men are cautious where fools are sure."

[waltwal]

i think a couple of things are missed in this discussion. i have always had a pretty high regard for ty willingham but i would not consider him any better than a solid div1-a football coach. is my opinion of him based on his record. no not entirely. it is based on everything that i have read and heard about him, some of it from people close to stanford . do i think notre dame made the right decision on weis- let me answer it like this. if they made their decision based solely on his 5-2 record then i think their decision was premature. if they looked at his entire program- recruiting, off-field decisions etc then maybe a 20 year contract was in order. it is hard to tell because most of us don't know all the things he has done in the eyes of the people who are close to nd that made this decision.

i am close to a situation where i think a 10 year extension would have been in order in his first year. this is a situation that i am fairly close to. i played for cal, i have a lot of friends who live in the berkeley area who are close to the program. i know jeff tedford and also coaches on his staff. i have 30 years of coaching experience and have attended not only games but also practices and have watched the program in action. i also pay close attention to their recruiting efforts. in my opinion tedford and his staff could be as good a program as there is in america. his first year record was 7-5 but anyone who was watching saw the rebirth of a long dormant program. there was so much more that improved other than his record. the alumni and students went absolutely crazy over cal football. the administration could not wait to lock this guy up because they knew they had a great coach and they also knew the pros and other top programs would be coming in the immediate future.

i see a lot of similiarities with weis at notre dame, i don't have the same inside knowledge but i do know this. in any field when you hire a person and then give them very difficult jobs you don't base your evaluation of that person solely on his success ratio but rather how they perform at very difficult sometimes unwinnable tasks.

it is so easy to say that willingham started 8-0 and weis 5-2 but there is so much more that goes into the evaluation of a head coach. i believe vince lombardi was 7-5 in his first year at green bay but i believe that the people who were close to green bay saw so much more than a 5 loss season.

people in positions of authority often make bad decisions but i get the feeling that if i watched coach weis on a daily basis and had the chance to evaluate him up close my feeling is that i would agree with the 10 year extension. on the other hand if i had the same opportunity with willingham i would have given him his full 5 years but the thought of a 10 year extension would not have entered my mind at any time.

when it comes to willingham and notre dame the one thing that will always bother me is that gerry faust, a bumbling idiot who the players wound up laughing at, got his full 5 years and willingham did not. i have always been curious as to the reasoning behind that story.

[scooper]

walt, good post.

As for Faust v Willingham, you can also add Davie to that question.

Many believe had Ty been at ND before Davie, it would have been Ty that coached 5 years and Davie for 3. It was as much about timing as it was about which coach got the full five years. Speaking of which, per his contract, Ty was bought out by ND. I believe it was $6 million, so his contract was honored.

Unfortunately for Ty, he happened to be the coach in place when the new administration at ND and their supporters saw the football team declining and decided to make a change.

In regard to your post, when the position opened up, Tedford was my first choice. I think he's one heck of a college coach.

[WSUCougar]

Here's a related commentary from the Washington Post back in December 2004, after Willingham was fired by Notre Dame:

Notre Dame's True Colors

By Michael Wilbon
Wednesday, December 1, 2004

The powers-that-be at Notre Dame, way too many of them anyway, never wanted Tyrone Willingham in the first place. The alums and the club boosters who donate tens of thousands of dollars and who influence opinion in South Bend never coveted Ty Willingham in the first place. They tolerated him. They made their peace with him being there. They hoped he would win. But they didn't want him. The whole three years Willingham was there, the power brokers stood with arms folded and feet tapping, staring at the clock trying to determine when his time would be up.

They hired George O'Leary, not knowing he had lied on his résumé. They wanted Jon Gruden, but he wouldn't leave the NFL. They wanted Mike Shanahan, but he wouldn't leave pro football, either. So when they had grown exhausted from chasing, but not catching their favorites, they turned desperately to Willingham and hoped he would deliver them not only from the O'Leary debacle but deliver magic. For the most part, they were never emotionally committed to him. They never loved him or treated him like "The Coach." The thinking was that if he went 10-1 every year, he could stay, and at that point they might even grow to like him. A good many of them were betting against him when he arrived.

So Willingham was fired yesterday three years into a five-year contract by a school that loves to claim the moral high ground. Notre Dame, the school that never before fired a coach before his initial contract expired, fired the first black head coach the school had ever hired in any sport. I'm sure everybody ever associated with Notre Dame will tell you color had nothing to do with letting Willingham go, that it's totally a coincidence, which is like spitting in somebody's face and telling him it's a rain drop.

This is a story about arrogance, about the Neanderthal nature of big-time college football, about a man who has more dignity than the bums who started calling for his head last season or those who plotted his firing for the last couple of weeks.

Not that Notre Dame is the only school operating a football program on complete arrogance, but it's the latest. Nebraska, Florida and Alabama are also among that small group of schools still believing it's their inalienable right to finish in the top 10 every season. They can't accept the fact that they don't own college football anymore, and that they'll never own it again. Not only do they have to share with the Southern Californias and Oklahomas, but with the Louisvilles and Marshalls and Utahs. In fact, the man Notre Dame is coveting right now, Urban Meyer, is the head coach of 11-0 Utah.

USC and Oklahoma are sitting pretty right now, but they'll cycle off just as they cycled on recently after down periods. Nebraska, only a year ago, fired a coach who went 8-3 because they felt he wasn't getting them close enough to a national title. So the good Cornhuskers people went out and hired a Super Bowl coach from the NFL, Bill Callahan, who just led them to 5-6. The Notre Dames and Nebraskas can't stand the sight of upstarts such as Boise State taking a seat at the table they used to control. They want college football to look just like it did in the 1950s and '60s. They want it controlled by a handful of big-conference teams. They want to tie up all the good bowl games. And they certainly do not want anything as modern, as democratic and as merit-based as a playoff. They want to live in Pleasantville as long as possible, and Pleasantville, in case you didn't notice, doesn't include black coaches telling white boys how to block or tackle, which is why there are only two black head coaches in Division I-A.

People at institutions such as Notre Dame don't sit around any more, even off the record, talking about getting rid of a person because he's a certain color. Such a conversation, if proven, would be illegal in this country, and most folks aren't that dumb. Intolerance has increasing subtlety. But the passionate distaste for Willingham in some quarters, including on campus after a loss, had an unmistakable stink to it.

Had Willingham been everything Notre Dame could have wanted? No, not yet. After going 10-3 his first year, he had a lousy second season. He was blown out by USC three times. But did he deserve to continue? Of course, he did. We're talking about a program that yielded one first-round draft pick in the past five years, meaning recruiting had fallen off long before Willingham arrived. They asked him to overhaul the offense, which takes more than a couple of seasons even at the professional level. They asked him to get rid of the knuckleheads who had embarrassed the school under the previous coach, and Willingham did that, too. Now, they say it came down to wins and losses.

When Willingham left Stanford, I winced. The people at Stanford loved Willingham; perhaps they still do. They wanted him there. They thought and demonstrated he was one of them, which did not happen in the main at Notre Dame. He knew he was taking a chance when he left Palo Alto for South Bend. But he felt he owed it to himself to try to win on the biggest stage in college football.

I hope Stanford brings him back. I hope the recruits who grew close to Willingham follow him wherever he goes. It'll be interesting to see how black parents, high school coaches and recruits respond to how Willingham was treated. I received an e-mail last night from the father of a Big Ten lineman, a white player by the way, who had been recruited by Willingham.

It reads in part, "Coach Willingham should not have been fired before his contract expired. Coach Willingham did a great job recruiting my son and really pushed the history of, and the opportunities available at, Notre Dame. In the end it was the lack of participation in a major conference and the off-campus activities available that made the difference. We wish him the best."

Maybe Meyer will come from Utah and, as they like to say in South Bend, wake up the echoes. But given the hype over this guy, he had better be The Goods. Maybe they'll turn to Gruden, who'll come to campus flashing his Super Bowl ring and galvanize the program. Either way, Willingham is better off coaching somewhere he'll be appreciated to the level of his expertise and class. And Notre Dame will hire a coach with the promise of returning the Irish to a preeminent place in college football. That's a place Notre Dame hasn't been in quite a while, and it's a place, given the school's shortsightedness, it won't be seeing anytime soon.

[scooper]

Wilbon hated ND before Willngham. He'll hate them afterward. He will not give a subjective opinion on them.

[hoosiergoody]

Not racist. Unfortunately this is going to make anything that really is racist be less-considered. Pulling the race card to the degree of crying wolf.

My guess is Weis wanted to remove all doubt about his future. ND is stupid in signing a 10-year vs. maybe a 5-year, but again, maybe Weis requested it this way...

[sterlingice]

Oh dear god, this was brough up by Whitlock? No wonder it sounds so stupid. He looks even dumber as the KC Star's "other" guy on the front page because his cynical and stupid columns are always next to perrenial optimist and award winning wordsmith Joe Posnanski.

SI

[scooper]

Originally Posted by hoosiergoody

Not racist. Unfortunately this is going to make anything that really is racist be less-considered. Pulling the race card to the degree of crying wolf.

My guess is Weis wanted to remove all doubt about his future. ND is stupid in signing a 10-year vs. maybe a 5-year, but again, maybe Weis requested it this way...

He already had a six year deal. This was essentially four years added to that with a raise. Calling it a ten year extension as the media is doing is a bit misleading.

[Warhammer]

This was not racially motivated. Willingham's first year, I was happy with the 8-0 start, but was worried because they did not look good in getting there. Then, his second season was abysmal. I still thought we would need to give him another year, changing the offense over and all that. However, during Willingham's third year, you saw a team that did not play good football. Fundamentally, they were horrible! So, by the end of the third year, I had had enough of Willingham.

Weis comes in, and with the same players, and Notre Dame becomes a juggernaut. Sure, they lost two games, but each of those games could easily have been a win. They also showed something that they didn't under Willingham. They showed moxie.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Oh dear god, this was brough up by Whitlock? No wonder it sounds so stupid.

To be fair, every sports outlet began the Weis vs. Willingham race issue within minutes of the announcement of Weis' extension. Whitlock's next original thought will be his first, but he did not spark this discussion.

[dawgfan]

Do I think race played a role in this decision? Only in a very tangential way. As others have pointed out, Willingham was never "the guy" for Notre Dame. They wanted Gruden, they were satisfied with O'Leary, then they had to settle for Willingham. I think it's a fair assessment to say that TyWillie never had the kind of enthusiastic support from alums and boosters that Weis enjoyed, starting from day 1. Was that because of Ty being black? Maybe for a few; I think for most he simply was seen as an emergency fall-back candidate.

It was a feel-good story at the time - a black coach hired to the most storied (and certainly most scrutinized) college football program. Willingham has always been a guy perceived as a straight-arrow and he had great student-athlete credentials coming from Stanford. When he was able to start off 8-0 with a number of gritty wins and some luck on the heels of a 5-6 season that cost Davie his job, Ty and the program got a lot of media attention. But it was never quite the frenzy that Weis has had.

For multiple reasons, Weis' arrival from the start generated more buzz in the media and with ND fans than Willingham's. Was it race? Again, maybe for a few, but mostly differing circumstances. While ND didn't get their main target (again) in Urban Meyer, they were very happy with Weis as a candidate, what with his NFL credentials as part of the burgeoning Pats dynasty, his status as ND alum and his feel-good story of the marginal athlete who survived and prospered in the coaching ranks not because of his football exploits (he never played after H.S.) but due to his work ethic and smarts. Add-in his battles with his weight that nearly cost him his life, and you had a media darling. Is that status helped by Weis being white? That's a societal question. I'm not going to discount the possibility that a small portion of the buzz around Weis is due to him not being a minority (would the general public feel as warm and fuzzy about Weis if he were black?) I also don't think it's anywhere close to the main reason either.

Regarding the extension itself, it's lunacy. Regardless of whatever NFL buzz there is around Weis, how can ND justify making Weis the highest paid coach in college football based only on 7 games and one off-season? His recruiting has gone well so far, but he hasn't yet had a full-season to prove his approach to the student-athlete. Maybe Weis proves to be an outstanding college coach that can return ND to the National Championship hunt yearly while graduating 98% of his players and avoiding negative off-field issues with his players. But at this point that's still just speculation on the part of ND. This kind of thing just further inflates the insane inflation of salaries in college football - if Weis is worth a 10-year, $30-40M deal, what is Pete Carroll worth?

[RendeR]

As someone else mentioned above, the ONLY reason race is involved is if someone brings it into the discussion. If people would stop MAKING race an issue it would stop BEING an issue, period.

[scooper]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

if Weis is worth a 10-year, $30-40M deal, what is Pete Carroll worth?

Maybe we'll soon find out.

[ZXTT]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Regarding the extension itself, it's lunacy. Regardless of whatever NFL buzz there is around Weis, how can ND justify making Weis the highest paid coach in college football based only on 7 games and one off-season? His recruiting has gone well so far, but he hasn't yet had a full-season to prove his approach to the student-athlete. Maybe Weis proves to be an outstanding college coach that can return ND to the National Championship hunt yearly while graduating 98% of his players and avoiding negative off-field issues with his players. But at this point that's still just speculation on the part of ND. This kind of thing just further inflates the insane inflation of salaries in college football - if Weis is worth a 10-year, $30-40M deal, what is Pete Carroll worth?

Umm, they had to do that to reduce the feeling that Weis would be coaching an NFL team next year. Also, consider the Michael Vick factor - does his play justify his deal? Doesn't matter, because the overall package he brings to his team does.

The easiest things to look at are the race of the coach and record. But there's a heck of lot more than that, things that are more apparent to those on the inside. Charlie Weis is worth bunches to Notre Dame because people like me who barely noticed Willingham coaching them and couldn't pick any other Notre Dame coach since Lou Holtz out of a line-up suddenly want to see them.

Why? Because there's some spark in this situation; for me it could be because I prefer the NFL over college and I want to see if the NFL expertise, work ethic and attention to detail Weis has will push Notre Dame to success. But the bottom line is, I might tune in to a Notre Dame game now. And I'll bet there are plenty of kids out there right now thinking, hmm, maybe Notre Dame's a good place to go. Meanwhile, the reputation of the university overall has probably gone up in the past year. Why? Charlie Weis.

So, arguing about first season records is pointless because that's not really the point. The record certainly will matter if ND doesn't continue to improve over the next few years, but not yet.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by ZXTT

Umm, they had to do that to reduce the feeling that Weis would be coaching an NFL team next year.

No, they didn't. If the NFL really wants him, they'll cover the buyout regardless of this extension. There was absolutely no good reason for this extension and raise - he already had a 6-year contract, plenty long enough to satisfy recruits that ND was commited to him. There was no need to give him a huge raise after just 7 games of evidence.

If the issue had to do with assisting recruiting by removing the threat other coaches could use of saying Weis will just jump to the NFL soon, there was a much simpler solution - Weis coming out publicly and saying very clearly "I'm not going anywhere."

All of these convenient media stories surrounding Weis - the "dying wish" story (most other coaches do similar things without trumpeting it to the media), the NFL rumors - make me suspicious that Weis is a grandstander, and that he did nothing to discourage this idea of him being a threat to jump to the NFL to jack up his salary.

As to the rest - I reiterate that it's extremely early in his tenure to make proclamations about how he's "turned things around" at Notre Dame. He hasn't even been there a year yet.

[Klinglerware]

If ND is going to get any return on it's investment in Weis, they had better give him the tools that will allow him to succeed consistently. Specifically, the key will be the relationship with the admissions office--at schools with selective admissions, the levels of antagonism exhibited by admissions towards the coaching staff's recruits often means the difference between winning and losing programs.

It looks like Weis has racked up quite an impressive list of recruits verbaling to ND. What remains to be seen is whether their borderline recruits will actually be admitted. Throughout the 90s, after ND stopped admitting Prop 48 athletes, I believe that there were a few blue-chippers who signed LOIs that ended up getting rejected by admissions.

[scooper]

If the issue had to do with assisting recruiting by removing the threat other coaches could use of saying Weis will just jump to the NFL soon, there was a much simpler solution - Weis coming out publicly and saying very clearly "I'm not going anywhere."

He has said as much on a couple occassions, and his agent said so a couple days before the extension. Recruits were being sold the "Weis is leaving" line left and right by opposing coaches. Now, he can tell them he's staying until he's blue in the face, but action often speaks louder than words. Sure, the NFL can still find ways to get him even after this extension, but this was the best option available to tell recruits that he'll be there a long time. yes, this was very ealy and there is some risk involved for the university. But the rumors were flying already without even a single opening in the NFL.

and that he did nothing to discourage this idea of him being a threat to jump to the NFL to jack up his salary.

No info has come out yet about the buyout in the new contract so you really can't say that.

If the NFL really wants him, they'll cover the buyout regardless of this extension.

Let's not forget this one. It takes two to tango. The NFL can't simply pay the buyout and draft him into the league. Sure, other coaches have gone back on their word. But just as often when a coach says they are staying, they stay. It was no secret the Niners coveted Pete Carroll. Tedford and Ferentz have had their names thrown about as well. They may very well leave someday, but thus far, they are still in college football.

[scooper]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

If ND is going to get any return on it's investment in Weis, they had better give him the tools that will allow him to succeed consistently. Specifically, the key will be the relationship with the admissions office--at schools with selective admissions, the levels of antagonism exhibited by admissions towards the coaching staff's recruits often means the difference between winning and losing programs.

It looks like Weis has racked up quite an impressive list of recruits verbaling to ND. What remains to be seen is whether their borderline recruits will actually be admitted. Throughout the 90s, after ND stopped admitting Prop 48 athletes, I believe that there were a few blue-chippers who signed LOIs that ended up getting rejected by admissions.

Notre Dame doesn't offer scholarships until the players are admitted. There are no borderlines. The guys who have committed have already been accepted.

But your point is well taken on getting what he needs and so far he has. Specifically, he has been given a large budget to attract quality assistants and he has established a solid relationship with the admissions office. For example, a couple athletes are being allowed to enroll early. ND has never done this before. But then again, the admissions director said recent coaches haven't really asked.

[dawgfan]

Do you see the irony of writing this:

Originally Posted by scooper

He has said as much on a couple occassions, and his agent said so a couple days before the extension. Recruits were being sold the "Weis is leaving" line left and right by opposing coaches. Now, he can tell them he's staying until he's blue in the face, but action often speaks louder than words. Sure, the NFL can still find ways to get him even after this extension, but this was the best option available to tell recruits that he'll be there a long time. yes, this was very ealy and there is some risk involved for the university. But the rumors were flying already without even a single opening in the NFL.

...followed shortly by this:

Let's not forget this one. It takes two to tango. The NFL can't simply pay the buyout and draft him into the league. Sure, other coaches have gone back on their word. But just as often when a coach says they are staying, they stay. It was no secret the Niners coveted Pete Carroll. Tedford and Ferentz have had their names thrown about as well. They may very well leave someday, but thus far, they are still in college football.

[scooper]

I assume you mean this part of it

the NFL can still find ways to get him even after this extension

followed by the next part. What I meant was the NFL still has deep pockets and nobody is going to sign a contract without some sort of buyout, so logistically, it is still possible.

That said, I stick by my belief that he will be at ND for a long time. There are family reasons for this as much as anything, considering he said he wants to be there when his son goes through ND (he's currently a seventh grader) and they have a special needs daughter who they don't want to move around anymore and they feel the midwest and at a Catholic university is a good environment to bring her up in.

[Solecismic]

A couple of points on Weis:

1) He is not a media darling. While people respect that he almost died, it is seen as a weakness in the football world. Many people feel he would already be a head coach in the NFL if not for the problem. Before the surgery and after.

2) In the week leading up to the new contract, there was significant buzz that Weis would leave Notre Dame next month and take a head coaching position in the NFL, perhaps in Houston. There was enough buzz that I think it's possible Weis had an offer on the table (unofficially, of course). I don't know the details of the extension, but the reason for it may well be Weis asking for some sort of guarantee he wouldn't get the Willingham treatment if he lost a few games.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by scooper

I assume you mean this part of it

No, I meant that you talk about how Weis has said repeatedly he isn't leaving Notre Dame and yet the talk hasn't died down about it, then go on to say how it takes two to tango - the coach has to be willing to be bought out.

My point is that while this extension may lower the Weis to NFL talk some, it won't kill it. Hell, opposing coaches will probably say "Look at all the money Notre Dame is throwing at Weis - he's hot property and NFL teams still have the money to buy him out if they want."

If Weis had done as much to nationally publicize his reported desire to stay at Notre Dame as he did with the "dying wish" story then maybe the issue of the NFL rumors hurting his recruiting wouldn't be such a big deal.