POL? - WalMart knew

[Flasch186]

Again, while the ultra capitalists will argue that you cant point at one and say theyre all like that. Some of you are beginning to see the light. Glen, has eased his stance and so have some of you but I will keep harping that loosening regulations on these guys does NOT mean that they will act in the best interest of our "greater" health or good. Wal Mart is simply ONE example of the lack of morality and ethics our corporate fabric have adopted over the past 20 years.



Feds: Wal-Mart Execs Knew Workers Illegal

By MARCUS KABEL, Associated Press Writer 2 hours, 14 minutes ago

SPRINGFIELD, Mo. - Senior Wal-Mart executives knew cleaning contractors were hiring illegal immigrants, many of whom were housed in crowded conditions and sometimes slept in the backs of stores, according to a federal agency's affidavit.


The affidavit, unsealed last week, was part of an investigation of Wal-Mart by federal immigration officials that led to the 2003 raid on 60 Wal-Mart stores in 21 states, and the arrests of 245 illegal workers. The retailer agreed to pay $11 million in March to settle the case, but says top executives neither encouraged nor knew of the practice.

The affidavit was filed by the Immigration and Naturalization Service to secure search warrants for a 2003 raid on Wal-Mart Stores Inc. headquarters in Bentonville, Ark. The INS has since been folded into the bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

The document was unsealed Nov. 2 by a U.S. district judge in Fayetteville, Ark. at the request of a New York attorney representing more than 200 former employees in a civil lawsuit against the world's largest retailer.

In the affidavit, investigators said testimony and taped conversations from 2003 showed two executives at Wal-Mart headquarters knew that contractors and subcontractors cleaning its stores in several states employed illegal immigrants from eastern Europe and elsewhere.

The lawyer who asked that the affidavit be unsealed said it shows Wal-Mart knew it had illegal janitors in its stores.

"The sworn testimony (in the affidavit) establishes that top Wal-Mart executives conspired with contractors to exploit undocumented immigrants," said James L. Linsey, a New York attorney leading a class-action lawsuit on behalf of former janitors.

Wal-Mart denied there was any incriminating evidence in the affidavit and said the comments by executives that it contained were "bits and pieces of information from larger conversations."

"As we have maintained all along, no company senior official had any direct knowledge that undocumented workers were working in our stores," Wal-Mart spokesman Marty Heires said in an e-mail to The Associated Press.

According to the affidavit, one cleaning contractor, Christopher Walters, told INS investigators that his company, IMC Associates of St. Louis, had been dropped by Wal-Mart in 1997 after INS raids in the St. Louis area found illegal workers cleaning the retailers' stores.

Walters told the INS that a Wal-Mart vice president, Leroy Schuetz, advised him to set up multiple subsidiaries so that if one of them were found using illegal workers, he could continue to do business with the retailer through the others.

The affidavit said another conversation took place in April 2003 at Wal-Mart headquarters between Steve Bertschy, a Wal-Mart vice president who managed maintenance of all Wal-Mart stores, and two contractors accompanied by an undercover INS investigator.

After one of the contractors repeatedly mentioned that many cleaning subcontractors were known to be using illegal immigrants at Wal-Mart stores, the affidavit said Bertschy commented: "And they load them up into one or two apartments and they take a family of five and pay them $1,000 a week, that's probably a dollar an hour if they're there seven days a week and they're not paying taxes because they're not getting paid a fair rate compared to U.S. standards, then they start stealing from the store to make up the difference."

Federal raids later found immigrants crowded into small apartments or trailers in sleeping bags and, in some cases, sleeping in the backs of Wal-Mart stores, carrying their personal belongings from job site to job site

[JonInMiddleGA]

I hope they throw the book at anyone who violates federal immigration law, something I've said since getting a chance to go on a couple of INS raids at north Georgia poultry plants a number of years ago.

(A totally fascinating experience to see if you ever get the chance btw)

[GrantDawg]

Hey, I'm generally a Walmart supporter, but if they break the law, they must pay the price. Anyone that knew and helped should go to jail, and the company should get stiff fines. It doesn't mean that Walmart is evil incarnate, though. Nor will it stop me from shopping there.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I hope they throw the book at anyone who violates federal immigration law, something I've said since getting a chance to go on a couple of INS raids at north Georgia poultry plants a number of years ago.

(A totally fascinating experience to see if you ever get the chance btw)

you can just ask and they let you go?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

you can just ask and they let you go?

Well ... it IS the INS, so anything is possible

Seriously, I went back in my days as part of the media but I've known a number of non-press civilians who've gone too, usually as either a member of a law enforcement auxiliary unit, or a civilian observer (not sure how that works though) or even as a volunteer translator (in areas where there's a shortage of manpower). So no, it's probably not just anybody & everybody, but still there are several ways to be there even if you aren't wearing a badge.

It's an absolutely mindblowing, almost surreal, experience IMO (and weighed significantly on my position that our immigration enforcement needs perhaps the most serious & complete overhaul of any government function).

[st.cronin]

I would be in favor of stripping Bertschky of all his possesions and deporting him to Sierra Leone.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Hey, I'm generally a Walmart supporter, but if they break the law, they must pay the price. Anyone that knew and helped should go to jail, and the company should get stiff fines. It doesn't mean that Walmart is evil incarnate, though. Nor will it stop me from shopping there.

Agree...It doesn't matter if its Walmart, Target, Enron or the 7-11 down the street.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Nor will it stop me from shopping there.

If it did, you'd also have to give up eating chicken pretty much completely.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Don't take this as defending Wal-Mart, because it's not.

But - is it illegal to contract with a company that hires illegals? I know it's against the law to directly hire illegals, but that's not what this article says happened.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Farrah Whitworth-Rahn

But - is it illegal to contract with a company that hires illegals? I know it's against the law to directly hire illegals, but that's not what this article says happened.

Not sure, although I suspect that you might be looking at something in the area of "encouraging a criminal act", "aiding the commission of a crime", or maybe worst case "conspiracy".

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Farrah Whitworth-Rahn

Don't take this as defending Wal-Mart, because it's not.

But - is it illegal to contract with a company that hires illegals? I know it's against the law to directly hire illegals, but that's not what this article says happened.

What is alleged is that Wal-Mart Execs conspired WITH the contractors to hire illegals.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RendeR

What is alleged is that Wal-Mart Execs conspired WITH the contractors to hire illegals.

Yeah, conspiracy and is it even possibily Racketeering? Where are the lawyers when you need them?

[ISiddiqui]

Could be conspiracy. To have a conspiracy you have to have an intent to have an conspiracy and have an intent to commit the illegal act. If Walmart encouraged these companies to hire illegals to keep costs down, it could definetly be conspiracy. If they knew, but didn't say anything, then I doubt it would... but you may have other crimes.

[Crapshoot]

I think one thing most people don't realize is how dependent the US economy (and to a greater extent, the culture) is on illegal immigrants - the cost profiles simply don't exist.

[sabotai]

This just in: All corperations are bad because Wal Mart is bad.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by sabotai

This just in: All corperations are bad because Wal Mart is bad.

I don't see anyone saying that, but there is much more evidence than just Walmart to suggest that theory is close to true. Corporation have no soul.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I don't see anyone saying that

Really?

Originally Posted by Flasch186

while the ultra capitalists will argue that you cant point at one and say theyre all like that. Some of you are beginning to see the light

There you go. His implication is clear.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Really?


There you go. His implication is clear.

Sorry, I didn't really read Flasch's rant.

[GrantDawg]

dola: Just to say further, "all" is never true. Most corporation are evil is close to true.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Sorry, I didn't really read Flasch's rant.

That's ok, I understand. I tend to avoid them as well.

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Most corporation are evil is close to true.

I'm not even sure you could even say this. Do you know how many corporations there are in the US that are active right now? Nearly 5 million. I think things would be just a bit worse if more than 4 million of them were evil.

EDIT: Wasn't Solecismic technically a corperation for a time? I guess that doesn't help my cause that much because we all know Jim is evil.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Sorry, I didn't really read Flasch's rant.

...but considering Sabotai's retort my "rant" was spot on? Was it exactly correct? Did he imply exactly what I said? Well, considering the answer thats bumbling about in your heads, you simply have to type out what it means. While I can certainly infer that while corporation after corporation get caught, people like Sabotai will say, In Arles speak, that until they are actually caught and convicted that they are NOT wrong and doing right everyday and deserve no federal regulations at all...because at heart, they have our best interests....


.....I on the other hand say, in STATISTICS, if you take a sampling of a HUGE group, and get a certain percentage of guilt or wrongdoing in that sample, then ONE CAN infer that MORE than that which have been caught, behave the same as those that have been. Certainly NOT ALL, I NEVER said that (Although it makes Sabotai and the like's arguments seem easier to write me off like I DID say that) it is their inference that Corporate America does behave in America's "best interests" and these are simply a few bad apples. I will defer to statistical sciences on that.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

dola: Just to say further, "all" is never true. Most corporation are evil is close to true.

I never said "All" if it makes Sabotai feel better he can imply but no one else can? fair? not really but thats not the point really is it?

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Farrah Whitworth-Rahn

Don't take this as defending Wal-Mart, because it's not.

But - is it illegal to contract with a company that hires illegals? I know it's against the law to directly hire illegals, but that's not what this article says happened.

This is how farmers in CA get around the the issue. It really isn't the farmer's business to know if the workers in his fields are "legal". You pay a labor contractor to certify that the workers have legal status, and wash your hands of the subject. Its actually the law, as silly as that sounds.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

I think one thing most people don't realize is how dependent the US economy (and to a greater extent, the culture) is on illegal immigrants - the cost profiles simply don't exist.

That is why I think there is really something to the "guest worker" programs that the President and a few others have suggested.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

That is why I think there is really something to the "guest worker" programs that the President and a few others have suggested.

How do you balance this or even broach the subject when the immigration laws and borders have been admittedly unprotected and the laws unenforced?

[MrBigglesworth]

It should be obvious that corporations, on the whole, will do what makes them the most money. If they believe that breaking the law will make them more money, they will break the law. People do the same things, and corporations are just made of people. I'm reminded of a quote from Fight Club:

Narrator: A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
Business woman on plane: Are there a lot of these kinds of accidents?
Narrator: You wouldn't believe.
Business woman on plane: Which car company do you work for?
Narrator: A major one.

The last time Wal-Mart was busted for worker violations, they came to a deal with the DOJ that they would give them 15 days notice before they were inspected. If you have that kind of fealty from the people that are supposed to be overseeing your actions, wouldn't you break more laws too?

[rkmsuf]

It is interesting. People rail against big business but look at Walmart. If they don't maintain their "rollback prices" people bitch. People bitch and stop going. People stop going and Walmart tanks. Walmart tanks and people bitch that the economy sucks. Pretty interesting.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

That is why I think there is really something to the "guest worker" programs that the President and a few others have suggested.

Yup. Either that or acknowledge the farm aid is pointless, which would be political suicide. The Guest Worker plan is one of Bush's best ideas, and a recognition that labor is a commodity.

[Abe Sargent]

I boycott WalMart - but I do think WalMart is one of the most egregious offenders of bad morals.

-Abe

[Warhammer]

I do everything I can to avoid Wal Mart. Just goes to show that a heap of immigrants can't keep our stores clean. I can just see it now, hire Americans for a cleaner America!

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

I do everything I can to avoid Wal Mart. Just goes to show that a heap of immigrants can't keep our stores clean. I can just see it now, hire Americans for a cleaner America!

This reminds me of one of my favorite Onion headlines:

Mexicans Sweeping The Nation

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

How do you balance this or even broach the subject when the immigration laws and borders have been admittedly unprotected and the laws unenforced?

Because I'm a realist, they are here, theve been coming here for years. They live amongst us. It would be better to legalize a way for them to get here/exist here, than to pour money down a drain, trying to stop people from coming here to actually aid our economy.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

It would be better to send these criminals back where they belong & use any means neccessary to prevent them from ever returning

Fixed that for you.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

While I can certainly infer that while corporation after corporation get caught, people like Sabotai will say, In Arles speak, that until they are actually caught and convicted that they are NOT wrong and doing right everyday and deserve no federal regulations at all...because at heart, they have our best interests....

I don't think they have our best interest at heart, nor do I think they need federal regulations. Is that clear enough for you?

.....I on the other hand say, in STATISTICS, if you take a sampling of a HUGE group, and get a certain percentage of guilt or wrongdoing in that sample, then ONE CAN infer that MORE than that which have been caught, behave the same as those that have been.

OF COURSE more than who get caught are doing it. We don't get every single murderer, every single rapist, every single drug user, every single thief. That doesn't mean every single person is a murderer, rapist, drug using thief. Of course not every corperation guilty of a crime is convicted for it. That doesn't mean they're all doing it and that doesn't mean you start slapping all of the other corporpations around with regulation after regulation spawned out of irrational fear and overreaction to what a few have done.

What you propose for the corporate world is exactly the same as those who push things like the Patriot Act and more against civil liberties. You and them are very similar, it's just that the target of your irrational fear and overreation is different.

Certainly NOT ALL, I NEVER said that (Although it makes Sabotai and the like's arguments seem easier to write me off like I DID say that)

You did. I guess I'll quote it again...

Again, while the ultra capitalists will argue that you cant point at one and say theyre all like that. Some of you are beginning to see the light.

I think I see the word "all" in there!

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by sabotai

I don't think they have our best interest at heart, nor do I think they need federal regulations. Is that clear enough for you?

So you are of a 'let the corporations do whatever they want' mindset?

Originally Posted by sabotai

What you propose for the corporate world is exactly the same as those who push things like the Patriot Act and more against civil liberties. You and them are very similar, it's just that the target of your irrational fear and overreation is different.

That's a bad analogy. The Patriot Act takes away your privacy in an effort to uncover illegal acts. Wal-Mart is engaging in illegal acts, and publically owned companies do not have the right to privacy that individuals have. I have no doubt that there are overburdonsome regulations out there, but 'Don't conspire to gain a competitive advantage over your competitors by hiring illegal workers' isn't one of them. If you want to make that legal, it's more than just corporate regulations that you have to change, you have to change US immigration law.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

So you are of a 'let the corporations do whatever they want' mindset?

As long as it does not infringe on the freedoms and rights of any individual or any other corporation/business.

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

That's a bad analogy.

Yeah, probably. It was just the first thing that came to mind when trying to think of something the conservatives pushed that infringed on civil liberties (ie, rights of the individual).

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

Because I'm a realist, they are here, theve been coming here for years. They live amongst us. It would be better to legalize a way for them to get here/exist here, than to pour money down a drain, trying to stop people from coming here to actually aid our economy.

I wonder what state our economy would be in without illegal immigrants. Though I've been in favor of open borders (to go with open capital... ie, total free trade).

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by sabotai

As long as it does not infringe on the freedoms and rights of any individual or any other corporation/business.

I think that is what most people say, but the area of contention is: what rights does an individual have?

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by sabotai

I think I see the word "all" in there!

that is fuckin' halarious. I said YOU will say "not" ALL are like that And I was right, you did say exactly that. That was an excellent twist of my statement though. I do NOT believe they are all like that just like you dont...just like I said BUT I do not think that they have the greater good for our country at heart and therefore, like in this case, many of them, more than those that are just caught, break laws, break moral code, and show deep seeded ethics violations on their way to the bottom line....leaving a trail of deceit and deception. Ill even go so far as to point out a few that I know of that DONt behave in this light, quickly without researching, Cisco, Ben & Jerry's.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

BUT I do not think that they have the greater good for our country at heart ... they do stuff on their way to the bottom line....

Ah, but now you raise a different proposition ... whether there's actually any "greater good" to be contributed by a corporation than "the bottom line".

Don't mind me, I'm too tired for anything deep at this point, I'm just throwing another tennis ball onto the court ... but with more energy, I'd be prone to argue that the bottom line is their ultimate responsibility & superceeds all others.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

that is fuckin' halarious. I said YOU will say "not" ALL are like that And I was right, you did say exactly that. That was an excellent twist of my statement though.

I twisted your words, yeah ok.....for the third fucking time...

"Again, while the ultra capitalists will argue that you cant point at one and say theyre all like that. Some of you are beginning to see the light."

Fine, since you want to play childish games, I'll just flat out ask. What exactly did you mean by "some of you are beginning to see the light"? I mean you just said you agreed with the statement that you can't point at one and say they're all like that. So what exactly do you mean by seeing the light?

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by sabotai

I twisted your words, yeah ok.....for the third fucking time...

"Again, while the ultra capitalists will argue that you cant point at one and say theyre all like that. Some of you are beginning to see the light."

Fine, since you want to play childish games, I'll just flat out ask. What exactly did you mean by "some of you are beginning to see the light"? I mean you just said you agreed with the statement that you can't point at one and say they're all like that. So what exactly do you mean by seeing the light?

I come from the Arles school of debate, wherein, he taught me that the rule of innocent until proven guilty rings true. Therein lies why we got into this. I believe that it is more than just those who get caught, simply that. Not all, but MORe than get caught....and it could be a lot more. But the ultra-capitalists believe that the least amount of federal regulation in business is better for us all. I DONT believe that. I believe a great deal of companies, in their effort to boldter that ever important bottom line, will lie cheat and steal to do so.

So in wrap up, I meant that more than JUST those that have gotten caught act this way. I didnt mean to insinuate ALL, if thats what you got from that...but certainly more than Just the 4 or 5 that have gotten caught in most recent years.

[duckman]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Wal Mart is simply ONE example of the lack of morality and ethics our corporate fabric have adopted over the past 20 years.

Morality is such a relative term.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by duckman

Morality is such a relative term.

very true but nonetheless, IMO important even in the corporate atmosphere.