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#1 | |||
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Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Pol - Weekly Standard Article - The Party of Sam's Club ?
Be warned, its long - but these guys propose some fairly radical changes for the Republican party, arguing that they are now the populists - and that's the way to future success. I don't neccessarily agree with much of this, but the Weekly Standard is a conservative standard bearer (more so than say the National Review these days, IMO), and some of this represents an interesting departure.
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#2 |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA
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DAMN that was long. The writers must have been getting paid by the word, with double time for going beyond a reasonable length.
As you might suspect, I generally like the bits & pieces of The Weekly Standard that I happen to catch. This on the other hand? Damn, the last time I saw that many bad ideas in one place, it was the Democratic Party platform (the long version, not just the talking points). Methinks a couple of writers (or a writer & an editor) have drifted out of touch with the people they think they're talking to. Shades of "the liberal media elite" in a big way. I came away from that with the comments that Bernard Goldberg made about Dan Rather being so out of touch that he didn't realize he was out of touch echoing in my mind ... except this time, it's two lost souls (presumably) who swerved off the road to the right instead of the left.
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"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis Last edited by JonInMiddleGA : 11-16-2005 at 09:39 PM. |
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#3 | ||
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Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
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I dunno Jon - my thought is that the Republicans are the populist party today. Admittedly, what they are advocating is some standard Dem talking points, but that's what Clinton did - and seized the middle. But the more I read, the more I wonder if the point being made here and elsewhere is true - that the GOP leaders have a fundemental disconnect from the GOP rank and file today, many of whom, like you in one way, are former Democrats. From another American Spectator Article: Quote:
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#4 |
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Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Dola,
for what its worth, I think wage subsidies are a horrible idea - but I do think the general point about populism is valid. |
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#5 | ||
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA
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I don't particularly disagree with that -- heck, at least in the South, that's very clearly the case IMO. Quote:
I don't disagree with that either, or least I'd say that there's a growing disconnect (rapidly if you look at the immigration amnesty mess). Where my jaw started dropping (and why I now have a bruised chin from the rapid descent) was how stunningly unappealing virtually everything the authors proposed seemed to be - not only to me but to probably 80+% I know or have even met that I would remotely label part of the "populist wing" of the GOP voting block. The one thing I don't disagree with the essay on is that the proposals outlined in it would buy some votes ... but taken on the whole, it looked like a package that would lose as many votes as it would gain. With what I'm about to post, I'm not looking to start the next hot FOFC political war, I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything either -- I just can't think of a better way to illustrate the disconnect that I saw in the article with what I believe accounts for the bulk of the GOP successes at the ballot box AND the key points in maintaining that momentum. And these are not in priority order either, it's just a checklist, because I'm too sleepy to do a satisfactory job of putting them in rank order right now. 1)Very firm hand globally. At this point, I believe it can be more isolationist (for lack of a better word) than it has been, but it cannot under any circumstance nor at any cost be seen as conceeding, caving, bending under pressure or anything of the sort. 2) promote socially conservative policies effectively (you can't just talk it all the time, you actually have to accomplish something occasionally too) 3) work steadily to eliminate anti-religion bias in both government & the courts (i.e. "freedom OF", not "freedom FROM" policies) 4) avoid any perception of raising taxes ... most especially if those are perceived as being redistributed to the most disinterested & least contributing members of the underclass 5) Maintain a tough on crime positioning (something that's faded a bit in recent years IMO). 6) Avoid the 3rd rails of key voting blocks -- 6a) if you're going to mess with Soc. Sec. do it subtly, drastic change too fast & you'll lose the older voters you have to stark terror -- 6b) you don't have to overturn R v. W overnight, just nibble at it enough or even appear to nibble at it enough to keep that wing going to the polls (obviously I don't have to agree with something to recognize its political value) -- 6c) don't screw with other core values groups such as gun ownership, capital punishment, etc. -- 6d) I'm sure I've missed one or two others, but dammit, I'm about to drowse off here THOSE are the things, taken in combination, that gave the fiscal wing of the GOP enough strength to win the White House & both sides of Congress. It is, to borrow a phrase (in an admittedly unorthodox fashion), a "coalition government" of sorts -- the fiscal element doesn't have the votes to do it alone, and frankly neither do the various blocks that have any of the above as their most significant litmus test. Fail to do those things and I'm convinced that anyone not named Hillary that the D's run can take the White House away. (If she's at the top of the ticket, I'm convinced the Rep. nominee could screw a goat on live TV & still keep those who voted for Bush either of the past two elections to come to the polls). If those points aren't met, it's over for the GOP, we aren't going back to the Dems, but we might very well just stay home.
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"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis Last edited by JonInMiddleGA : 11-16-2005 at 10:19 PM. |
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#6 |
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High School Varsity
Join Date: Nov 2003
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I've read this before. It's absurd. The gist seems to be: well, we've grabbed all these "values voters" who used to be Democrats because their economic interests are Democratic interests, but they don't like abortion and gay people, so they voted for us, but they still have Democratic economic interests, so we'll adapt to that by adopting those interests. We'll be Democrats who hate abortion and gay people. Yay Republicans! It would be hard for Republicans to sell out the old conservative values more than they already have, but these guys are game to give it a try.
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#7 | |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Back in Houston!
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Well, if Hillary does get nominated, then the debates will sure be interesting ("now just bring that goat over here and..." "Baaaaah!"). I mean, c'mon, how could nominating another northeast Democrat who should have been playing on her southern roots instead of going all carpetbagger go bad? SI
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Houston Hippopotami, III.3: 20th Anniversary Thread - All former HT players are encouraged to check it out! Janos: "Only America could produce an imbecile of your caliber!" Freakazoid: "That's because we make lots of things better than other people!" |
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#8 | ||
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Head Coach
Join Date: Jul 2001
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That was a very interesting read, and not suprisingly, if JiMGa hates it i'm likely to find it at least intriguing. But my main concern is health care. The idea of health insurance being required by law much like car insurance is an interesting one.
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I think this is a pretty important concept, and I think they way it is presented in this article (to paraphrase, 'not as a welfare program for the poor but as a way to keep the middle class healthcare costs down by not having to effectively subsidize the poor') is extremely worthwhile. I have high hopes(that I'm sure will be crushed, leave me in my dreamworld for now) that the domestic issues Bush is facing now may lead to a more moderate presidential nominee on the right in 2008. If that were to happen, there's a decent chance that who I vote for won't be set in stone from day one, and healthcare reform will be a the top of the list for me in determining who I vote for. Pipe dream i'm sure... but I can dream. The sweeping tax reforms(consumption tax + no income tax under 100K) would make for an interesting debate but that's a bit too radical to be realistic(and honestly I'm not sure if it would be good or bad for the middle class on the face of it), but some sort of tax reform and simplification would also help me consider a candidate on the right in 2008. The rhetoric bush gave us on tax code simplification was potentially the best thing to come out of his presidency in my view, but running with the social security changes instead ruined all of that for me. Quote:
I don't know what the republicans have to do to avoid this, but I think if they continue on the track they are on now domestically, and thorns when it comes to foreign policy keep cropping up, a democrat will easily win the white house in '08, possibly even Hillary. Honestly I think that the Bush Administration needs to change their stance on torture, and do it fast. I didn't like Bush's foreign policy in his first term because I felt he was hurting our international image, and I'm the type that feels that's important, but now I think there are some sticking points in our foreign policy outside of just "troops are dying in iraq" that are hurting him at home, the stance on torture being at the top of the list. |
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#9 | ||||
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Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
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See, the interesting thing to me is that I wonder if the populist issues are the same in the South as they are in the North. If you now believe that the South is a fairly easy slam dunk for the GOP, their populism should be concentrated on issues that would play up more in the north - and I think Health Care would be one of them. That being said, its perfectly possible that these are of base - but to be fair to them, they state (towards the end) that these are flawed proposals, but the vein is what the GOP should be targetting (or reinforcing). Quote:
What specifically ? I'm a legal immigrant, so I'm somewhat curious about this - most GOP types I know (who admittedly are Northeasterns or West Coasters) don't have a problem with legal immigration and want more of it, to fill skill sets that Americans, especially in the sciences, simply aren't producing. That being said, like you- they are very much in favor of stricter border enforcement. Quote:
Agreed with the initial point- this isn't a discussion of the individual merit issues, but the value that those issues generate in terms of political power. 1. I tend to agree that this is a strong GOP point, but I wonder if Iraq is eroding the moderates on this - I think a more "Stay out of my way, I'll stay out of yours" approach would reinforce this base. 2. I think they have already - with the various gay marriage bans. Are you talking about eliminating Affirmative Action ? That may be a thing that's going to reinforce the GOP's power to the moderates, but I'm not sure what else can be done in social conservatism that would fit the "populist" move. 3. Eh - I think people to whom this matters are already reliable GOP voters - will this really reinforce an additional group (It may well in the South - I don't know). 4. Yup - this one's clear. But they need to reign in spending on other programs. 5. The suburbs vote getter - fair enough. the GOP is still seen as tougher on crime nationally than the Dems. 6a - I think slow is the way to go, no doubt - but the issue is so hyper sensitive right now, I think any changes will be blown out of proportion. 6b - As long as you don't actually overturn it - sure. An actual overturning of Roe vs. Wade would significantly bother those suburban moms who have had one of thinking of one - a full abortion ban would hurt the GOP more than it would help it. In essence, I see most of the points you're stating as reinforcing the current solid GOP'ers, rather than reigning in the moderates for the long term - which is the direction I think the GOP is going. I do think Immigration will be a big vote winner, and the GOP leaders (and the pro-business groups I pointed out earlier) influence them more than the rank and file on this. I think the Dems may well seize Immigration as an issue, but attack legal immigration, not illegal. Quote:
My thought was that a Hilary nomination would be horrible for the Dems (and an unlimited checkbook for the GOP) but you wonder- is she the Bush of the Left ? In the sense, I've read polls that Republican women, which this article cites as one of the largest growing GOP constituiences, would consider crossing back to the Dems for her. Now there are many who hate her, but of those - how many would have considered voting for a Dem short of Lieberman anyway ? Last edited by Crapshoot : 11-17-2005 at 12:11 PM. |
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#10 | |
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Head Coach
Join Date: Jul 2001
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crapshoot just commented on this too and I am curious about this. It seems to me that the religous face of the republican party right now is the most extreme section of the "religous right" that is seen as condemning those who disagree or don't believe the same way they do, including other christians. I believe at this point that many moderates associate Pat Robertson with religion and government, and associate prayers for the death of a supreme court justice, threads of retribution by an angry god on those that don't vote the way he believes with most Republicans. It seems to me that the Republican party just has to pay lip service to the religous right to get a large number of votes from this sector, but that if they go overboard they risk losing a large, large number of moderate Republicans and Democrats who may not be happy with what the Dems are currently offering. I also think that with the way the Bush Administration is handling faith based initiatives and intelligent design/evolution teachings in schools, the Republicans are bringing on a lot of the "Freemdom From" instead of "Freedom Of" backlash on themselves. |
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#11 |
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Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Its a good question, and I know Jon has raised the point before -what exactly is the Republican party today ? I've said populist, but that's a one size fit all catch-all that isn't perfect - in many ways, they aren't populist at all. It may be a "coalition" of the willing, as it were.
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#12 |
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Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Fresno, CA
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I want the Republicans to move to the center. I've said before that I initially hoped that Bush would lose in 2000, but that was before Gore completely lost me in the aftermath of Florida. I figured that whoever took over in 2000 would inheirit a recession, and have virtually NO chance of reelection. So four years of Gore wouldn't be so bad, because the Republican leadership might wake up and nominate someone like McCain in 2k4.
As for the article. (I did actually struggle through and read most of it) -I like, and would love to vote for a candidate looking to target tax relief on middle income families with kids. Not so hot on the consumption tax idea. This is the problem I have with a consumption tax, it would hit those (middle class with children) families much harder than the current system. -Nationally subsidized/required Health Care troubles me, but not so much that it would keep me from voting for someone proposing it, so long as the plan proposed made cost control a HUGE priority. I'd have to be sold on it, and sold well. -Immigration reform was mentioned above, and I think the guest worker program would be a good thing. They are here already. If we essentially sanction their behavior as it benefits our economy, we at least have some sort of paper trail documenting them. I know that JiMGA and others here think this is the most ridiculous proposal ever made, but I really don't see much harm in it. -Targetting low income wage earners with government assistance sounds intriguing, but I think the idea needs to cook a bit longer. What was suggested, just doesn't seem fiscally sound. I like what JiMGA said with regard to protecting religion from Government by reinstilling a Freedom of Religion rather than a Freedom From religion. I think that part of the Constitution was called the Establishment Clause for a reason. I disagree with what he said about a move to the middle costing the Republican candidate votes. A moderate republican easilly wins the middle, and probably takes California. Game Over for the Democrats. The Republican base will vote Republican because the more conservative candidates will have zero chance of winning, and to vote third party is almost as bad voting for the Democrat. The party faithful will remain so, and vote against the Dem candidate. |
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#13 |
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Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Bump. I found this article by accident. In light of the passage of time - you care to comment on anything Jon?
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