Boston: Epstein...we don't need no stinking Epstein.

[WrongWay]

Check out this trade. Pending Physicals

Boston
Josh Beckett
Mike Lowell

Florida
Hanley Ramirez
And 2 prospects to be named later


I know Florida was looking to unload some salary, but this is rediculous. Unbelievable.

[Joe Canadian]

Baseball is broken.

[st.cronin]

hahahahahaha stupid Joe Girardi

If I were in charge of Boston I would be willing to trade my entire farm system for Josh Beckett.

[Philliesfan980]

Nice trade... Lowell will handcuff you with his salary, and the fact that he's brutal when he's not on the juice, but a small price to pay for one of the better young arms in the league. You just hope that the Marlins didn't overwork him too much in his younger years. They've been known to do that.

[vex]

Nice trade for the Sox.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

Baseball is broken.

sure is

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by WrongWay

Check out this trade. Pending Physicals

Boston
Josh Beckett
Mike Lowell

Florida
Hanley Ramirez
And 2 prospects to be named later


I know Florida was looking to unload some salary, but this is rediculous. Unbelievable.

Boston has some top-notch pitching prospects. If this trade includes someone like Jon Papelbon then I think Florida has done OK in the deal.

[jeff061]

Talking heads on WEEI slamming this trade something awful as being bad for Boston. Probably wouldn't be saying a thing if Theo was around though. Damn near impossible to get a quality starter these days and the only way Renteria is going anywhere is if he all of a sudden gets a lot better. In which case he's no longer a concern. That and apparently Hanley has a major attitude problem.

So yeah, I'm for it.

Edit: Better not include Papelbon though.

[WrongWay]

The only thing I couldn't find out was if there is any money involved in the trade.

[Philliesfan980]

Beckett has issues staying healthy. I'm not so sure this is as much as a slam dunk as people think.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by Philliesfan980

Nice trade... Lowell will handcuff you with his salary, and the fact that he's brutal when he's not on the juice, but a small price to pay for one of the better young arms in the league. You just hope that the Marlins didn't overwork him too much in his younger years. They've been known to do that.

I believe his DL stints (typ. for a blister on the middle finger of his pitching hand) have kept his inning totals down.

[Philliesfan980]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

I believe his DL stints (typ. for a blister on the middle finger of his pitching hand) have kept his inning totals down.

Good point. The way they abuse D-train, and the fact that he has a funky delivery, I'll be surprised if Dontrell is still pitching when he's 31-32.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Dola, my understanding is that aside from those blister issues, he has been on the DL once with an elbow sprain, once with a lower back strain, and once with an oblique strain.

[st.cronin]

There is no pitching prospect anywhere worth a tenth of Josh Beckett.

[Philliesfan980]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

Dola, my understanding is that aside from those blister issues, he has been on the DL once with an elbow sprain, once with a lower back strain, and once with an oblique strain.

Yeah, I thought it was more than just the blister.

But with pitchers today, its really a crap shoot. When you get an opportunity to get a guy like him, you have to take a chance.

[WrongWay]

Yeah, the only knock on Beckett has been the Blisters. He is a top 5 pitcher otherwise.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Talking heads on WEEI slamming this trade something awful as being bad for Boston.

As if we needed further proof that WEEI is a den of idiots.

[panerd]

Dammit. I got Beckett cheap in a fantasy league. Trade him to an NL team please!

And I thought Hanley Ramirez was some slam that I couldn't understand about Manny Ramerez. Are the Marlins serious?

[Mr. Wednesday]

Hanley's generally considered to be one of the best position prospects in the Sox system.

[Rich1033]

I dont like it for Boston. I wouldnt take on a horrible contract and trade 2 top prospects for a guy with injury problems and a 3.83 road ERA.

[henry296]

The one pitcher is supposed to be Anibel Sanchez who was lights out this year in the minors.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Rich1033

I dont like it for Boston. I wouldnt take on a horrible contract and trade 2 top prospects for a guy with injury problems and a 3.83 road ERA.

Boston, like NY, can afford to take on a bad contract.

There are less than 50 decent pitchers in the history of baseball that didn't have injury problems from 20-25.

A 3.83 road era is very, very good.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Beckett's injury problems consist of recurring blisters on his right middle finger. Even if he continues to have trouble with those, I'd have to think that it's not the sort of thing that does more than cost him a DL stretch or two in the middle of the season.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

There is no pitching prospect anywhere worth a tenth of Josh Beckett.

I'm not sure if this was supposed to be sarcasm, but it's a long ways from being true.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by panerd

And I thought Hanley Ramirez was some slam that I couldn't understand about Manny Ramerez. Are the Marlins serious?

If the hype is to be believed Hanley will be a All Star caliber SS within a few years. I'm not sure I believe it. I've been wondering if they've been hyping him with the sole purpose of trading him in mind.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

I'm not sure if this was supposed to be sarcasm, but it's a long ways from being true.

It is not sarcasm. Betting on young pitchers is ALWAYS a suckers bet.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

It is not sarcasm. Betting on young pitchers is ALWAYS a suckers bet.

I'll take Felix Hernandez any day over Josh Beckett.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

I'll take Felix Hernandez any day over Josh Beckett.

2 points

1. Felix Hernandez is not a prospect; he is a major league pitcher, who has proven himself against major league hitters.

2. I would still take Beckett over him.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Word is, Beckett + Lowell to the Sox for Ramirez + Sanchez + another prospect.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Dola, I'm a big fan of this trade from the Boston side of things.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

Beckett's injury problems consist of recurring blisters on his right middle finger. Even if he continues to have trouble with those, I'd have to think that it's not the sort of thing that does more than cost him a DL stretch or two in the middle of the season.

Other than in four seasons he's be on the DL nine times. I'm perplexed by the hype with Beckett. He's an outstanding prospect, but last season was the first year he'd made more than 26 starts -- only 29 -- and won more than nine ball games. I'd still label him an outstanding prospect, since he has not yet shown he has the durability and attitude to be a depending frontline starter. Counting on Beckett to head your rotation is a gamble right now.

That said, I'm perplexed by this deal. On the one hand, it's possible that the Marlins could find no one willing to take on Lowell's salary, which would mean including him in a Beckett deal. It sounds like that is what killed the Rangers deal with Blalock for Beckett -- the Marlins wanted a pitching prospect in return if they couldn't unload Lowell.

If this was the only way to move Lowell's salary, then this is probably the best deal the Marlins could get. They could probably have gotten more for Beckett alone, but if unloading Lowell is a priority, then that's what you have to do.

The blister problem seems to be a common injury issue. Same thing with Jeremy Affeldt here in KC. Not as good as an arm as Beckett, but he's had the same injury issue that has really setback his career.

[miami_fan]

This is really simple from the Marlins point of view. With no chance at a new stadium (even before the hurricane IMO), they simply could not afford Lowell's contract. I think you can expect them to dump more contracts and make another run in two years IF they are still in South Florida in that time frame

[Ksyrup]

I think that's a good trade for both teams. As for the Marlins situation, I posted an article in the offseason thread that explains their problem - South Florida fans suck. They simply don't deserve a team.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

2 points

1. Felix Hernandez is not a prospect; he is a major league pitcher, who has proven himself against major league hitters.

2. I would still take Beckett over him.

Hernandez has only pitched 84 major league innings, but fine, I'll play along. Give me a few days and I can identify at least 10 pitching prospects that are at least 75% of Beckett. I understand the whole idea that pitching prospects are very unreliable and much more difficult to predict than position players, but the idea that there are no pitching prospects worth 1/10th of Josh Beckett is pure hyperbole.

As for Beckett vs. Hernandez, while I think Beckett is a terrific talent and has done very well so far given his age, I'd still take Hernandez. Beckett has yet to pitch more than 180 innings in a season and has a history of injuries beyond just his notable blister problems. He's been dominant in the minors and very good in the majors, but he started his minor league career at a more advanced age than Felix was when he made it to the majors. Felix, if he stays healthy, is going to be a Hall of Famer, multiple-Cy Young winner. His combination of strikeout rate and groundball rate is extremely rare - he's already at a level comperable to where Kevin Brown was in his peak years.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Beckett has yet to pitch more than 180 innings in a season and has a history of injuries beyond just his notable blister problems.

I'm not sure what injury history you're referring to -- someone on another site dug up his DL history, and the non-blister (or non-related) injuries totaled the three that I posted above, none of which repeated.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

I'm not sure what injury history you're referring to -- someone on another site dug up his DL history, and the non-blister (or non-related) injuries totaled the three that I posted above, none of which repeated.

The blister problem is troublesome by itself, considering he's never pitched more than 180 innings in an MLB season. Beyond that, issues with an elbow strain are scary - any prior injury history involving the arm of a pitcher is a cautionary flag. The back and oblique strains are slightly less troubling, but they could become recurring issues, and they might indicate underlying issues with his mechanics.

He may rattle off 3 straight full seasons with no injury issues, but until he does so he has to be considered a moderate injury risk given his history of missing games, even if the vast majority are due to blister issues. Missing a start is missing a start.

[WrongWay]

So, how many times has Beckett pitched fewer than 100 innings in a season?

Sorry, but I think Beckett is about as close to a sure thing as you can get for a young pitcher in Baseball.

[jeff061]

And I'm not sure how realistic it is to be writing someone's ticket to the hall(barring injury) after 84 innings.

[WrongWay]

Here, try to spot the trend in Becket's career

2001 FLA 24.0
2002 FLA 107.2
2003 FLA 142.0
2004 FLA 156.2
2005 FLA 178.2

I don't know about you, but I think I can see a pattern here.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by WrongWay

Here, try to spot the trend in Becket's career

2001 FLA 24.0
2002 FLA 107.2
2003 FLA 142.0
2004 FLA 156.2
2005 FLA 178.2

I don't know about you, but I think I can see a pattern here.

Yeah, a pattern of not being able to pitch a full season. Despite Beckett's great peformance when he's been healthy, he hasn't been healthy enough to provide elite value to his team. Let's compare his VORP to someone like Freddy Garcia:

2005: Beckett: 36.2; Garcia: 45.6
2004: Beckett: 28.3; Garcia: 35.1
2003: Beckett: 35.9; Garcia: 27.1
2002: Beckett: 9.8; Garcia: 38.7

There's no question that when healthy, Beckett is a better pitcher than Garcia. The problem is he's not been healthy nearly as often, and Garcia has actually provided more value to his teams than Beckett has.

Look, I think Beckett is one of the premium young pitchers in the game, but his inability to pitch a full season hurts his value and is a cause for concern.

[DaddyTorgo]

i don't think i like this trade. i'm still not convinced that josh beckett is the answer to anything, and mike lowell is overpaid and underperforming. For Hanley and two more prospects? Seems like the Marlins are making out like kings.

[st.cronin]

I am reminded of Jim Fregosi plus prospects for Nolan Ryan.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I am reminded of Jim Fregosi plus prospects for Nolan Ryan.

so you're saying Josh Beckett is the next Jim Fregosi??

[McSweeny]

Originally Posted by henry296

The one pitcher is supposed to be Anibel Sanchez who was lights out this year in the minors.

lights out in A ball

little different than beings lights out in the post-season (2.20 ERA) as Beckett has been

Hanley hit .270 in AA. Beckett is 25 and a proven top of the line starter. I am drooling

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Philliesfan980

Good point. The way they abuse D-train, and the fact that he has a funky delivery, I'll be surprised if Dontrell is still pitching when he's 31-32.

Yah, if I were him, I'd get the hell out of there. Force a trade or something. Because they're gonna dog him out even more this year. What's with Loria's fire sale again? He's such a horrible owner.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i don't think i like this trade. i'm still not convinced that josh beckett is the answer to anything, and mike lowell is overpaid and underperforming. For Hanley and two more prospects? Seems like the Marlins are making out like kings.

Even if it's just for a year, Ramirez isn't gonna be the next A-Rod or anything. So, the deal, for the short term makes a ton of sense. Like everyone keeps saying, starting pitching is really hard to find. Especially proven starting pitching. And unlike the Blue Jays (my team) that are about to overpay for AJ Burnett, at least Beckett has proven that when he's healthy, he can be a beast.

[st.cronin]

Somebody picking on this trade from the Sox pov name 10 starting pitchers they would rather have than Josh Beckett, and then we'll check the list at the end of 2006.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Somebody picking on this trade from the Sox pov name 10 starting pitchers they would rather have than Josh Beckett, and then we'll check the list at the end of 2006.

Sandy Koufax, Walter Johnson, Warren Spahn, Don Drysdale, Cy Young...oh, did you mean contemporary pitchers?

[jeff061]

They are saying it's confirmed now, pending a physical. Hanley Ramirez and pitchers Anibal Sánchez and Jesus Delgado for Beckett and Mike Lowell.

I for one am stoke by this deal. Of course John "The Douche Bag" Dennis on EEI was thrashing it this morning. Every caller and Callahan thought it was a great deal though. I need another sports radio for my morning commute, I can't take Dennis.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

What's with Loria's fire sale again? He's such a horrible owner.

At the risk of repeating this from the offseason thread, here's an article from Ft. Lauderdale by a guy who is not an owner apologist. He's just telling the truth here:



Don't blame Loria for Marlins' payroll woes



Dave Hyde
Sports Columnist

November 21, 2005

Seasons have changed. Players have changed. Even the Marlins owners have changed, three times, from business-savvy H. Wayne Huizenga to baseball-silly John Henry to Jeffrey Loria, who has been the best mix of sports and business.

But the Marlins' storyline stays the same: Some great teams. Some star players. But no stadium. Not enough fans. Never any financial cavalry coming over the horizon.

And so now it's Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell possibly being salary-dumped to Texas. Carlos Delgado and the $48 million owed him in the next three years are in play in trade talks, too. At least Delgado went public fearing so.

If it all happens, could anyone blame Loria the way everyone once did Huizenga and Henry? By now, it's obvious the first problem baseball has in South Florida isn't an owner, the stadium, afternoon thunderstorms, the dismantling of 1997, the lack of a dome, the angle of the seats, marketing plans for the team, Mike Lowell's slump, any proposed new stadium site or the fact concession stands just don't take credit cards, darn it.

There simply aren't enough paying fans.

That's it. That's the problem in a definitive sentence. And a distinction must be made between "paying fans" and "baseball fans," because the Marlins' TV ratings are strong. TV officials brag about them. Just last spring, a one-of-162 Marlins game outdrew a Heat playoff game. Go figure.

If the Marlins were the Kansas City Royals or Pittsburgh Pirates during the last decade, this constant lack of support would be more understandable. But they've been South Florida's most successful franchise in the past decade. They've won two World Series. That would muster the maximum support possible.

South Florida won't put public money toward a baseball stadium. That's clear, and it's reasonable. But the mystery forever will be why two publicly funded basketball arenas and a hockey arena were built while baseball gets nothing despite providing double the events at the lowest ticket price.

Loria has done more than asked since his arrival in 2002. He answered whether he would dismantle the Marlins by winning the World Series in 2003, and if he'd spend money by first signing Pudge Rodriguez, then Carlos Delgado, and having a middle-of-the-pack payroll of $66 million this year.

Has any franchise been smarter with its money the last few seasons? Any team had more exciting players?

Even this frustrating season, they contended until late September. There wasn't a better ticket in sports than Dontrelle Willis, who finished second in the National League Cy Young voting. Delgado and Miguel Cabrera finished fifth and sixth, respectively, in Most Valuable Player voting.

And they ranked 28th in attendance.

So who can blame Loria for whatever he does? Who says Huizenga's conclusion wasn't right, if his methods heavy-handed? No doubt General Manager Larry Beinfest will trot out the term "payroll flexibility" in discussing any trades of Beckett or Delgado. All smaller-payroll teams do. But Beinfest invented the phrase back in 2002, when starting pitcher Matt Clement and then-closer Antonio Alfonseca were dealt to the Cubs just before the season in a statement of where the Marlins' payroll stood.

Maybe that's the lifeline of hope today. Maybe, like that Cubs deal that brought Willis, any big-salary moves will be part of a greater plan the Marlins have to somehow salvage the future by getting quality youth.

Hank Blalock would fit into that idea. He's a former All-Star third baseman coming off a bad year. Sound familiar? But unlike Lowell, who is 32 and owed $18 million the next two years, Blalock is 25 with a contract totaling $13 million for the next three years.

If Cabrera is blocked once more from returning to his natural position of third base, well, this doesn't look to be an offseason of soft landings for anyone.

For four years, Loria has bumped up against what Huizenga and Henry did. For the past three, he smartly worked around it. And he explained the low attendance this season as, "purely a factor of weather."

Told he was optimistic, he said: "If you don't have a degree of optimism in this business, you couldn't do it."

In this awful baseball market, it's not clear he still can.

Dave Hyde can be reached at [email protected].

Copyright © 2005, South Florida Sun-Sentinel