General Motors laying off 30k employee's/Rant inside

[Ragone]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10138507/



Now, I'm not going to try and be political here.. since, while i am a member of the Uaw(Ford).. I don't necessarily agree with their politics. That being said, I have read threads over the past few days(not just here mind you) about people wanting to buy cars.. and everything being suggested was "Toyota/Honda/Mazda".. why.. because they aren't american made, So while you are helping out some people, you are hurting others.. which i guess makes it kind of a double edged sword.. but i digress

News flash, over 50% of Toyota's/Honda's that are sold in the us ARE MADE IN THE US..

2nd News Flash, Ford owns Mazda.. (whoops)

Now, don't read this as a sales pitch, because i'm not out to change anyone's mind.. as people are entitled to their own opinions, I just wanted to knock down some common misconceptions i have repeatedly heard. People bitch and moan daily about the economy being poor, and why the goverment isn't doing anything to help.. Yet drive around Toyota's :P

[GrantDawg]

Ummmmm...what?

[Flasch186]

according to the Republicans the economy is just fine. That is political sorry.

[stevew]

If the automaker could actually break the union, I wonder if cars would even get cheaper. Probaly not.

[SirFozzie]

Patriotism comes a weak 2nd place to a well-designed, safe car. Sorry.

[Crapshoot]

Toyota's are better, cheaper and more efficient cars. American car makers are saddled with their own stupidity - I see no reason for Assembly Line workers to be paid at 30-40 bucks an hour when the marketplace value of their skills is a whole heck of a lot less then that. As for the car market at large, GM's headed to bankruptcy sooner or later anyway - I'd gladly take 2 to 1 odds on it right now.

[Butter]

If GM and Ford would make some reliable cars, maybe their sales wouldn't be so poor. There is a reason that Hondas and Toyotas are being suggested. I have driven or owned 3 American cars, all of whom pretty much passed the point of being reliable after around 100,000 miles, even after having $2k or more poured into them. My Toyota that I drive to work every day, on the other hand, is in the shop right now for the first time in 7 years, with nearly 150k miles on it.

[Tekneek]

Cars would not get cheaper and I am a little skeptical that this has more to do with UAW than it does their bad business strategy. They are always behind the trends. I hope that in those 30,000 are all the people who plan out the business strategy for each year and the executives who signed off on it. Otherwise, they aren't fixing their biggest problems.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Patriotism comes a weak 2nd place to a well-designed, safe car. Sorry.

exactly

[Ksyrup]

Half my family is (or was, until the last few years) in the auto industry in Detroit, so I hear the same things all the time. The fact of the matter is, make a better product and more people will buy it. Yes, a lot of Toyotas and Hondas are made in the US. But I don't necessarily have a problem with the assembly line workers - it's the designs, features, safety specs, etc., that are lacking, IMO. Are quality issues necessarily confined to the hourly wage people putting the cars together? I don't think so. That is a corporate issue.

As far as the Mazda-Ford thing, Ford owns about a third of Mazda, so it's not like they have complete control and its just like they are a brand of Ford like Mercury. It's not that way at all.

They may very well be making better and more appealing cars. But its going to take time. I'll admit - when I was looking for a luxury car back in May, I only seriously looked at Acura, Lexus, Inifiniti, and Audi. And when we bought my wife's minivan, it was Odyssey or bust. Just the way it is.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

American car makers are saddled with their own stupidity - I see no reason for Assembly Line workers to be paid at 30-40 bucks an hour when the marketplace value of their skills is a whole heck of a lot less then that.

I don't see that as the problem. It may be part of the problem, but it isn't the biggest problem. They need some executives who have a good feel for the future. They are always trying to put all their eggs into past trends, with seemingly no real idea of what the market is going to want next year. That would have absolutely nothing to do with guys on the assembly line and everything to do with stupid stuffed shirts in the boardroom who are just trying to milk out big dollars before the house of cards collapses.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Cars would not get cheaper and I am a little skeptical that this has more to do with UAW than it does their bad business strategy. They are always behind the trends. I hope that in those 30,000 are all the people who plan out the business strategy for each year and the executives who signed off on it. Otherwise, they aren't fixing their biggest problems.

Agreed. High unionized wages and benefits probably don't help, but it was the guys in the suits that are running GM into the ground (and are probably getting raises while they do it!).

[Anthony]

i agree with the behind the trends. according to the American Auto industry, they won't be able to roll out cars as energy efficient as Japan's cars till about 2010, 2012. why so long? spend more money on researching better fuel economy, deemphasize gas guzzling SUVs as the main source of revenue and invest in alternative fuel research. and do it quickly. they should have been working on more efficient cars once gas prices hit the $2 mark and tried to have been ahead of the curve.

also, while there are a lot of people living in the US, is there really a need for so many cars to get made each year? every citizen doesn't need a car. i mean, how often do we all buy cars? once every 8-10 years, if that. there are just so many different kinds of cars that are so similar, and so many get made.

[Kodos]

Sorry. Hondas and Toyotas are consisently among the best-rated cars in Consumer Reports. GM cars are consistently among the worst.

Easy choice.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Toyota's are better, cheaper and more efficient cars. American car makers are saddled with their own stupidity - I see no reason for Assembly Line workers to be paid at 30-40 bucks an hour when the marketplace value of their skills is a whole heck of a lot less then that. As for the car market at large, GM's headed to bankruptcy sooner or later anyway - I'd gladly take 2 to 1 odds on it right now.

Yeah, I'm not saying to pay them shit, but like 20 bucks an hour is more than adequate compensation. I read somewhere that like 2-4 thousand dollars of each GM cars cost was essentially to pay health care expenses for a former employee/current employee.

Too bad its totally unrealistic for someone to start a new car company, I'm sure you could make similar cars to GM, sell them for 5K less, and make more of a profit on them than they do currently.

[KeyserSoze]

The same old problems everywhere, everytime. If the chief makes a mistake, the common people paid the bill.

I can undestand that 30k could be fired. It's a sad sad thing. But I can't understand that the managers that have put GM in a terrible situation can had millions in the bank just for his mismanagement.

I´ve no problem with Mr. Gates. He makes billions to Microsoft, so he can make half the billions of Microsoft, but I really had a very bad feeling about managers that get rich doing a terrible job.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

i mean, how often do we all buy cars? once every 8-10 years, if that. there are just so many different kinds of cars that are so similar, and so many get made.

Perhaps there are stats on this kind of thing, but I think you are way off on that number. Especially if you include new car leases. For every person who sits on a 225K mile, 12-year old car, there are many people who either lease a new car every 2-3 years, or who trade in cars they buy every 4-6 years. My wife and I have gotten rid of 3 cars we purchased - her Saturn, which we kept for 6 years, my Civic, which we kept for 5 years, and my 626, which we kept for just under 5 years. My father-in-law has had 4 different cars in the last 8 years.

I expect that we'll keep her Odyssey beyond April 2007, which will be 5 years, but I also expect that if we can afford it, w'll probably look to upgrade it to a new model that has leather seats, a built-in DVD player, XM radio, and generally is safer and, well, "newer."

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by KeyserSoze

I´ve no problem with Mr. Gates. He makes billions to Microsoft, so he can make half the billions of Microsoft, but I really had a very bad feeling about managers that get rich doing a terrible job.

You put Good Ol' Boys (tm) on the Board, who are then willing to take care of Good Ol' Boys (tm) in the Executive ranks. A lot of Boards really fail to act independently of the company's officers these days, which (IMO) defeats the purpose.

[Apathetic Lurker]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

If GM and Ford would make some reliable cars, maybe their sales wouldn't be so poor. There is a reason that Hondas and Toyotas are being suggested. I have driven or owned 3 American cars, all of whom pretty much passed the point of being reliable after around 100,000 miles, even after having $2k or more poured into them. My Toyota that I drive to work every day, on the other hand, is in the shop right now for the first time in 7 years, with nearly 150k miles on it.

Hmmm, I dont know about this. My first Saturn(1995) went to 135K before being crunched by a ford escort going 70 into my parked car. My 2nd Saturn(1994) is now at 239K and still going strong with 1 starter replaced, reg oil changes and brake work done around every 40k miles and of course tires. Saturn is part of GM isn't it? Not sure about the last statement as I have no need for a new car being perfectly happy with my 94 Saturn and my 1985 Marquis.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Apatheric Lurker

Hmmm, I dont know about this. My first Saturn(1995) went to 135K before being crunched by a ford escort going 70 into my parked car. My 2nd Saturn(1994) is now at 239K and still going strong with 1 starter replaced, reg oil changes and brake work done around every 40k miles and of course tires. Saturn is part of GM isn't it?

And that is not the common trend. I have a friend with a Saturn. He has 75,000 miles on it, and has already replaced the transmission and the front-end joints. It seems like shortly after the warranty ended, the thing started falling apart.

[duckman]

There are other underlying circumstances in why some of these plants are being closed. Fro example, GM has been wanting to close the plant here in Oklahoma for some time now after a squabble over back taxes. Oklahoma City gave them five years of tax incentives for putting a plant here only to demand they pay those taxes with penalties and interest once the five years up. It upset the GM execs so much that they've been looking for an excuse to close the plant permanently. So it's not entirely because of cost cutting that they are closing these plants down.

It actually hurt our relations with business owners looking to bring industry to Oklahoma.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Another prime example of the de-industrialization of America.

[Bee]

So, if I understand this correctly...

Over half of Toyotas and Hondas sold in the US are made in the US...

One of the plants being closed by GM is in Canada...

But buying a Toyota instead of a GM is some kind of major impact on US economy and is causing the collapse of the US automotive industry?

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by CHEMICAL SOLDIER

Another prime example of the de-industrialization of America.

So ? The future is in the service industries anyway. De-industrialization is hardly a bad thing per se.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

So ? The future is in the service industries anyway. De-industrialization is hardly a bad thing per se.

Unless a day comes when we need to be able to manufacture vehicles for our own defense. The service industry will do little to help this nation stand on its own feet.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Unless a day comes when we need to be able to manufacture vehicles for our own defense. The service industry will do little to help this nation stand on its own feet.

Well, not if you believe Donald Rumsfeld. I believe that he is very sympathetic to Toffler third-wave ideas applied to warfare (i.e., the wars of the future will bear little resemblance to wars of the past). According to the theory, wars won't be as mechanized--so a heavy industrial base won't be as necessary to war-fighting capacity.

Of course, Rumsfeld's attempts to transform US military doctrine overnight has met with mixed results in Iraq. While I'm not as gung-ho about a third-wave transformation as Rumsfeld is, I do think the ideas are interesting. I'm just not sure (a) how long such a transformation would take and (b) if this is applicable to insurgent warfare...

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

according to the Republicans the economy is just fine. That is political sorry.

Not sure if this was mentioned, as I have only read as far as Flasch's post, but the Republican spin on this is that Health Care costs and therefore the Unions driving those benefit requirements that is causing this problem in a generally healthy economy.

[jeff061]

I own a Wrangler and am planning on getting a new Mustang next year. They are cars I want to own and drive, the fact they are American is a coincidence(though it is not lost on me). Maybe when I'm older I'll put safer and reliable over the fun factor.

So in my case safety comes a weak second before fun .

[RendeR]

If any of you truly believe there is a fundemental difference in quality in ANY car maker today you are foolish and misinformed.

There is a distinct difference in cost and services from different manufacturers, however the cars themselves are damn near identical across the board today under the sheetmetal (and in far too many cases including the sheetmetal).

What most people fail to recognize is that Those good ol' American cars they are bashing and passing up for a "foreign" machine are in fact the same exact machine with different labeling and options. 6 of Gm's top selling cars are simply japanese designed automobiles with new sheetmetal and GM tags.

Think people. There really isn't much difference anywhere along the line anymore. The so-called "quality" is a sham, since you're driving the same damn car be it mazda or Ford, or Toyota and Pontiac.

Its really tiring listening to people bad mouth the quality of American manufacturer's vehicles when the truth is there is no difference.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

And that is not the common trend. I have a friend with a Saturn. He has 75,000 miles on it, and has already replaced the transmission and the front-end joints. It seems like shortly after the warranty ended, the thing started falling apart.

Sounds like a Hyundai I had years ago.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Its really tiring listening to people bad mouth the quality of American manufacturer's vehicles when the truth is there is no difference.

Lemme guess -- Consumer Reports, J.D.Power, et al are part of the some Christian conspiracy, right?

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Lemme guess -- Consumer Reports, J.D.Power, et al are part of the some Christian conspiracy, right?

A lot of companies share technology, platforms, and parts.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Lemme guess -- Consumer Reports, J.D.Power, et al are part of the some Christian conspiracy, right?

They must be owned by the foriegn interest. The Triad are trying to destroy the Amercian car industry. IT IS ALL A CONSPIRACY! PLEASE IGNORE FACTS!!!

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

A lot of companies share technology, platforms, and parts.

And some are better at putting them togather to make a quality product that people want. GM has been terrible at for many years now.

[Ksyrup]

Sorry, I'll put the opinions of virtually everyone I know who has had personal experience with American cars up against your claims that there is no difference between them and foreign cars. Hell, my dad used to work for Ford and he won't touch one.

While I'm sensitive to the fact that American jobs may be lost, the fact of the matter is, I view this like Wal-Mart running local grocery and drug stores out of business - find a better business model, or find another way to earn a living.

[stevew]

They took 'r Jobs!

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

And some are better at putting them togather to make a quality product that people want. GM has been terrible at for many years now.

I agree, the trend is pretty new. I really haven't seen American companies follow suit too much.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by stevew

They took 'r Jobs!

[Shepp]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Cars would not get cheaper and I am a little skeptical that this has more to do with UAW than it does their bad business strategy. They are always behind the trends. I hope that in those 30,000 are all the people who plan out the business strategy for each year and the executives who signed off on it. Otherwise, they aren't fixing their biggest problems.

Thats the tragedy here, the people who are being laid off are just working folks trying to make a living. Most of the people who made the the decisions that led to this are still making their over inflated saleries or have moved on with large golden parachutes.

[GrantDawg]

Let me say this...I'm not bashing all American cars. There are some out there that are likable and buyable. Some companies are doing a better job at making products people want (Ford and Dodge have some nice products), but GM seems to be behind the 8-ball on this, and is the worst in hoping their past reputation as the "better quality" American automaker would sustain them. Besides the Hummer, I can't think of another GM "win" in recent history, and on some level models, they seem to be falling behind faster than they could ever hope to catch up. I can't think of a single GM product I woud like to own over any comparable Toyota product.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Sounds like a Hyundai I had years ago.

Sounds like the Hyundai I have now...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

A lot of companies share technology, platforms, and parts.

But that is not the same as "they all use the technology, platforms, and parts in the same way and to the same standards of performance."

[Ksyrup]

The Chrysler 300 is a pretty good car, and was recognized as such by Motor Trend last year.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Sounds like the Hyundai I have now...

I have one with about 120k on it and has never required more than the usual routine maintenance. We've put brakes on it, and replaced a clutch, and otherwise nothing more than oil changes and tuneups.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

The Chrysler 300 is a pretty good car, and was recognized as such by Motor Trend last year.

But I would rather have an Avalon or a Lexus.

[jeff061]

My mother has an Avalon. Must be at 110,000 miles by now, hasn't needed anything but new break pads. Didn't need those until a couple years ago. Stepmother has a Lexus, to new to see whats going on with that.

I dislike them both. Not my kind of car at all.

[MrBigglesworth]

I drive a Ford Explorer, but not because of any act of patriotism, but rather because it was the car that fit my needs the most when I was looking to make a purchase. That's economics.

The biggest reason that GM is having a tough time competing is that they have to spend something like $8 billion a year on health care. Universal health care will eventually come to this country, but not because of the left, it will be because big business will demand it.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by jeff061

My mother has an Avalon. Must be at 110,000 miles by now, hasn't needed anything but new break pads. Didn't need those until a couple years ago. Stepmother has a Lexus, to new to see whats going on with that.

I dislike them both. Not my kind of car at all.

But then would be a 300M? I was just comparing types. I wouldn't buy any of the above, but would choose the Toyota's over the GM's, as per my statement.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

I drive a Ford Explorer, but not because of any act of patriotism, but rather because it was the car that fit my needs the most when I was looking to make a purchase. That's economics.

The biggest reason that GM is having a tough time competing is that they have to spend something like $8 billion a year on health care. Universal health care will eventually come to this country, but not because of the left, it will be because big business will demand it.

I actually think you're right - universal health care as an issue will come from the right, not the left. And GM's health care costs are a big reason for its problems - but piss poor management, and an over-reliance on gaz-guzzling cash cow SUV's is another - too much of GM's revenue comes from those alone.

[wade moore]

Render's "facts" are so far off it's not even funny...

As someone mentioned, i guess that means that the numerous magazines, experts, and personal anecdotes are all some conspiracy...

Sorry, but cars are not that similar... they're just not.