Baseball HOF gets one new member

[JonInMiddleGA]

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sh...l_of_Fame.html

NEW YORK — Bruce Sutter was elected to the Hall of Fame on Tuesday, just the fourth relief pitcher given baseball's highest honor.

Sutter, the first pitcher elected to the Hall with no career starts, was listed on 76.9 percent of the ballots cast by 10-year members of the Baseball Writers' Association of America. The split-finger pioneer collected 400 of a record 520 ballots.

"It was the call you always hope for, but you never really expect it to happen," Sutter said, adding that he cried when he received the notification.

Players needed 390 votes (75 percent) to gain election. Boston Red Sox slugger Jim Rice fell 53 votes short, finishing second with 337 votes (64.8 percent), one ahead of reliever Goose Gossage.

Sutter was on the ballot for the 13th time, the first player elected so late since Ralph Kiner in 1975. Rice was appearing for the 12th time and has three years remaining on the writers' ballot. Gossage was on the ballot for the seventh time.

It might be difficult for Rice and Gossage to gain votes next year, when Cal Ripken Jr., Tony Gwynn and Mark McGwire appear on the ballot for the first time. Each voter may select up to 10 players.

The other players in the Hall who primarily were relievers are Hoyt Wilhelm (elected in 1985), Rollie Fingers (1992) and Dennis Eckersley (2004).

Andre Dawson was fourth with 317 votes, followed by Bert Blyleven (277), Lee Smith (234), Jack Morris (214), Tommy John (154) and Steve Garvey (135).

[JonInMiddleGA]

A long overdue selection IMO, Gossage should be there too.

[GreenMonster]

I still have a hard time believing Rice and Dawson can't make it. These guys were studs in there time.

[Crapshoot]

Blyven, screwed again by idiots who place more stock in "losses' than in actual performance - for shame.

[Hammer755]

Awful selection. I would have been thrilled with Goose & Blyleven, possibly even Rice too - but Sutter?

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by GreenMonster

I still have a hard time believing Rice and Dawson can't make it. These guys were studs in there time.

And extremely overrated. Meanwhile, a guy who was one of the top 40 pitchers in baseball (as good, if not better than say, Nolan Ryan) stays out, while a closer gets in.

[clintl]

Sutter was very deserving. For a number of years, the absolute best in the game. But Gossage, Rice, and Blyleven should be in, too. I'd put Dawson in, too, although I see how his low OBP hurts his chances.

I'm guessing that with numbers Albert Belle put up in his career, he would have done a little better than 7.7% if he had a different personality.

[bigdawg2003]

Isn't Sutter generally credited with either inventing or popularizing the split finger fastball? If so that has to count for something right?

[kcchief19]

If were going to put relief pitchers in the Hall of Fame, Sutter belongs. He was part of that generation that redefined the role of a fireman/closer and was also among the first to throw the split-finger fastball. His saves total is going to look low compared to modern day closers because of the way relief pitchers were used 20-30 years ago, but I think he's worthy. I also would have voted for Blyleven, but that's it.

Next month a veteran's committee is taking up a special ballot of Negro League players, so the Hall will likely get a couple of new members there. I'm really hoping Buck O'Neil gets the call -- he's a one of a kind guy. He was a very nice ball player, but I think he deserves to get in for his work preserving the history of the Negro Leagues alone.

If you took a poll of Kansas City baseball fans on their favorite Kansas City player, I have no doubt Buck would come in second behind only George Brett. He's revered here.

[st.cronin]

Goose > Sutter

It's really not close in terms of what they meant to their team. I'm guessing Sutter got some extra credit for being a pioneer of the forkball/splitter.

[rkmsuf]

They should bring him into the ceremony in one of those golf carts shaped like a baseball...like in Bases Loaded.

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

If were going to put relief pitchers in the Hall of Fame, Sutter belongs. He was part of that generation that redefined the role of a fireman/closer and was also among the first to throw the split-finger fastball. His saves total is going to look low compared to modern day closers because of the way relief pitchers were used 20-30 years ago, but I think he's worthy.

I concur with the gentleman from the western part of the state.

[Fonzie]

Poor Bert.

[stevew]

Bert always gets screwed.

[RendeR]

I'm not sure what everyone sees in Gossage, he had a great fastball, whoopdie doo. There are a thousand guys like him throughout the history of baseball. he shouldn't be granted the HoF simply because he played in NY and got a shit ton more media attention.

[JonInMiddleGA]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/fr...1:Rich+Gossage

Similar Pitchers

1. Rollie Fingers (918) *
2. Hoyt Wilhelm (889) *

* denotes HOF'er

[JonInMiddleGA]

And since I did it for Gossage ...

Bert Blyleven
1. Don Sutton (914) *
2. Gaylord Perry (909) *
3. Fergie Jenkins (890) *
4. Tommy John (889)
5. Robin Roberts (876) *
6. Tom Seaver (864) *
7. Jim Kaat (854)
8. Early Wynn (844) *
9. Phil Niekro (844) *
10. Steve Carlton (840) *

[RendeR]

Similar? thats a laugh, How does anyone find those three pitchers similar?
******
EDIT: just read the explanations page, its interesting, but there are 8 other guys on that list that aren't in, not a real incentive to believe he deserves it still.
******
Fingers was a junkball thrower, wether it was straight breaking bals or souped up vaseline balls or other things, he had NO power at all. I can't speak for Wilhelm, he was before my time.

What criteria are they comparing in your little search? just the name? If thats the case then I'm sure the list includes any thousand other relief pitchers as well. the rest of which "aren't" in the HoF"

Gossages wasn't special, he just got more attention because he played for the Skanks.

[Maple Leafs]

Am I the only one who thinks Morris should be getting more votes?

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Similar? thats a laugh, How does anyone find those three pitchers similar?

Fingers was a junkball thrower, wether it was straight breaking bals or souped up vaseline balls or other things, he had NO power at all. I can't speak for Wilhelm, he was before my time.

What criteria are they comparing in your little search? just the name? If thats the case then I'm sure the list includes any thousand other relief pitchers as well. the rest of which "aren't" in the HoF"

Gossages wasn't special, he just got more attention because he played for the Skanks.

I think your problem is that you live in BUFFALO. You should move someplace warm, like Charleston or Phoenix. I suspect that would dramatically improve your mood.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RendeR

What criteria are they comparing in your little search? just the name? If thats the case then I'm sure the list includes any thousand other relief pitchers as well. the rest of which "aren't" in the HoF"

"my little search"

Damn, do you actually know anything about ANYTHING on earth or do you actually just talking to hear yourself talk? Because your signal-to-noise ratio is pretty damned pitiful.

from baseball-reference.com

" Similarity scores are not my concept. Bill James introduced them nearly 15 years ago, and I lifted his methodology from his book The Politics of Glory (p. 86-106). To compare one player to another, start at 1000 points and then you subtract points based on the statistical differences of each player.
Pitchers
Start with a thousand and then subtract the following deductions.

* One point for each difference of 1 win.
* One point for each difference of 2 losses.
* One point for each difference of .002 in winning percentage (max 100 points).
* One point for each difference of .02 in ERA (max 100 points).
* One point for each difference of 10 games pitched.
* One point for each difference of 20 starts.
* One point for each difference of 20 complete games.
* One point for each difference of 50 innings pitched.
* One point for each difference of 50 hits allowed.
* One point for each difference of 30 strikeouts.
* One point for each difference of 10 walks.
* One point for each difference of 5 shutouts.
* One point for each difference of 3 saves.

If they throw with a different hand and are starters subtract 10, relievers 25. For relievers you half the winning percentage penalty and the winning percentage penalty can up to 1.5 times the wins and losses penalty. Relievers are defined as more relief appearances than starts and less than 4.00 innings per appearance. ... Note that a player must have 100 innings pitched or 300 at bats before being considered and to be truly accurate you need to look at whole careers, but it is fun to speculate all the same.

Gossages wasn't special, he just got more attention because he played for the Skanks.

Gee, I must have overlooked the whole "extra credit for playing in NY" adjustment in the formula

Next time you don't have the slightest hint of a clue, how about doing yourself AND the rest of the world a favor & simply shutting the fuck up?

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Similar? thats a laugh, How does anyone find those three pitchers similar?

Uh, because of their peformance? Hello, McFly?

Originally Posted by RendeR

Fingers was a junkball thrower, wether it was straight breaking bals or souped up vaseline balls or other things, he had NO power at all. I can't speak for Wilhelm, he was before my time.

Who the fuck cares what kinds of pitches they threw? Isn't the goal of the pitcher to get outs?

Originally Posted by RendeR

What criteria are they comparing in your little search? just the name? If thats the case then I'm sure the list includes any thousand other relief pitchers as well. the rest of which "aren't" in the HoF"

No, it's not comparing names - it's comparing their peformance. Get a clue.

Originally Posted by RendeR

Gossages wasn't special, he just got more attention because he played for the Skanks.

Utter bullshit. Did you bother to check his career numbers? You happen to notice that stretch of dominance from '75-'85 (excluding the failed experiment to turn him into a starter in '76)? Not only was he dominant during that stretch of his prime years, he remained an effective reliever into his early 40's. The man was one of the best relief pitchers of all-time.

I hate the Yankees but that doesn't mean I can't recognize a brilliant performer when I see one.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I think your problem is that you live in BUFFALO. You should move someplace warm, like Charleston or Phoenix. I suspect that would dramatically improve your mood.

I hope Telle reads this, she'll laugh for a month. I HATE heat. if its above 65 degrees I am constantly pissed off. I like the cold, I spent 3 years in San Diego, 1 in Florida, and 1 in Charlotte NC, i HATED THEM ALL.

I happen to love buffalo, its cool, relaxed, convenient. I'm not thrilled with the utility bills here as the gas and electric companies are Fucking us with large expansion reamers...but beyond a serious drinking/football condition, this town is pretty awesome.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Am I the only one who thinks Morris should be getting more votes?

Jack Morris, yes. How Hal Morris got 5 votes is beyond me...he had a decent little career, but Hall of Famer?

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Am I the only one who thinks Morris should be getting more votes?

Yes. He was a league average pitcher for most of his career.

[RendeR]

Wow, and you pricks try to call ME an asshole? I simply asked questions because I think the man was a typical 10 cent reliver and you guys get fucking pissed off and insulting? WTF? grow up you fucking stats wankers.

No wonder baseball is the biggest joke in sports, its fans are pathetic.

I grew up watching fingers and gossage and hundreds of others just like them, I never saw anything special about either. I never said I thought Fingers deserved it either now did I?

get a fucking hold of yourselves children.

Holy shit.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by RendeR

I hope Telle reads this, she'll laugh for a month. I HATE heat. if its above 65 degrees I am constantly pissed off. I like the cold, I spent 3 years in San Diego, 1 in Florida, and 1 in Charlotte NC, i HATED THEM ALL.

I happen to love buffalo, its cool, relaxed, convenient. I'm not thrilled with the utility bills here as the gas and electric companies are Fucking us with large expansion reamers...but beyond a serious drinking/football condition, this town is pretty awesome.

Ok, then you're just a dick. Got it.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Ok, then you're just a dick. Got it.

Wow now there is a surprise, St.Cronin talking out his ass again.

WTF did I do to deserve this shit today? Fuck all of you.

[sterlingice]

This got me thinking about some of the other big closers of our day and age and ran across some staggering numbers in their ERA+:
Mariano Rivera: 197 (11 years, lowest at 160); 379 saves
Billy Wagner: 180 (11 yrs, the injured one at 80, no others below 140); 284 saves
Troy Percival: 150 (11 yrs, with some bad ones); 324 saves
Armando Benitez: 148 (12 yrs, even with some real stinkers); 263 saves
John Wetteland: 148 (12 yrs, retired); 330 saves
Trevor Hoffman: 146 (13 yrs, retired); 436 saves
Robb Nen: 138 (10 yrs, retired due to injury); 314 saves

Those are amazing using that one rate stat (which certainly doesn't paint the entire picture, despite what some would have you believe). Maybe 5 starting pitchers a year beat those and they have career numbers that high.

So, which of these deserve HOF consideration? For sure, Rivera and Wagner deserve serious consideration unless the fall off a cliff in the next couple of years. Hoffman is 2nd all time in saves behind Lee Smith, but does that get him in? Probably, but what should be the new "standard" for closers in the HOF with a lot of possible candidates coming due in the next 5-10 years and beyond.

SI

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Wow, and you pricks try to call ME an asshole? I simply asked questions because I think the man was a typical 10 cent reliver and you guys get fucking pissed off and insulting? WTF? grow up you fucking stats wankers.

A "typical 10 cent reliver"? You obviously have no clue if you think this is true.

Originally Posted by RendeR

No wonder baseball is the biggest joke in sports, its fans are pathetic.

We're pathetic because we understand the game and call bullshit on guys that don't?

Originally Posted by RendeR

I grew up watching fingers and gossage and hundreds of others just like them, I never saw anything special about either. I never said I thought Fingers deserved it either now did I?

I don't know what time period you're talking about, but if you were watching him between '75 and '85 (especially the late '70's) and didn't realize he was one of the very best relievers in the game then you simply didn't have a clue.

Originally Posted by RendeR

get a fucking hold of yourselves children.

Let's see, you express a very strongly worded opinion about Gossage's Hall of Fame qualifications and then get all pissy when some strongly worded rebuttals come your way? Grow a pair...

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by RendeR

No wonder baseball is the biggest joke in sports, its fans are pathetic.

You bring that attitude into a thread about the Baseball Hall of Fame, and of course there's bound to be trouble. Go get therapy.

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Hoffman is 2nd all time in saves behind Lee Smith, but does that get him in? Probably...

Who would it when Lee Smith himself can't get in?

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

This got me thinking about some of the other big closers of our day and age and ran across some staggering numbers in their ERA+:
Mariano Rivera: 197 (11 years, lowest at 160); 379 saves
Billy Wagner: 180 (11 yrs, the injured one at 80, no others below 140); 284 saves
Troy Percival: 150 (11 yrs, with some bad ones); 324 saves
Armando Benitez: 148 (12 yrs, even with some real stinkers); 263 saves
John Wetteland: 148 (12 yrs, retired); 330 saves
Trevor Hoffman: 146 (13 yrs, retired); 436 saves
Robb Nen: 138 (10 yrs, retired due to injury); 314 saves

Those are amazing using that one rate stat (which certainly doesn't paint the entire picture, despite what some would have you believe). Maybe 5 starting pitchers a year beat those and they have career numbers that high.

So, which of these deserve HOF consideration? For sure, Rivera and Wagner deserve serious consideration unless the fall off a cliff in the next couple of years. Hoffman is 2nd all time in saves behind Lee Smith, but does that get him in? Probably, but what should be the new "standard" for closers in the HOF with a lot of possible candidates coming due in the next 5-10 years and beyond.

SI

I agree about Rivera and Wagner and think Hoffman will make it on career achievement and consistency.

Using ERA+ for relievers though is nowhere near as useful as it is for starters, simply because ERA is not the best measure to judge a relief pitcher. And it's not really fair to compare ERA+ of starters and relievers given the large difference in workload and circumstances. A great reliever should always post better rate stats than an equally great starter.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Jack Morris, yes. How Hal Morris got 5 votes is beyond me...he had a decent little career, but Hall of Famer?

How many writers in Cincy vote for the HoF again? 5?

SI

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Yes. He was a league average pitcher for most of his career.

Was he, though? When I was a kid, he was widely considered the best pitcher in the AL. I remember this, because I was a huge Dave Steib fan and you could always pick an argument over whether he was better than Morris. The fact that he pitched arguably the greatest game of all time should count for something too.

Should he be in? I don't have the numbers to make that argument, but I'm surprised that every year the debate rages around Blyleven, Rice and Dawson and he never gets mentioned.

[John Galt]

RendeR, are you always this bad of a poster or is it just today?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

I hate the Yankees but that doesn't mean I can't recognize a brilliant performer when I see one.

I don't get to do this very often with dawgfan, so ... what he said.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Was he, though? When I was a kid, he was widely considered the best pitcher in the AL. I remember this, because I was a huge Dave Steib fan and you could always pick an argument over whether he was better than Morris. The fact that he pitched arguably the greatest game of all time should count for something too.

Should he be in? I don't have the numbers to make that argument, but I'm surprised that every year the debate rages around Blyleven, Rice and Dawson and he never gets mentioned.

That's still my favorite game of all time, too

Jayson Stark likes him tho that and a small mint of money will get you some overpriced coffee at Starbucks. Here's the exerpt from his column:

Originally Posted by jayson stark

Jack Morris

Morris is another guy who apparently is never going to make it. But we never tire of stating his case: Yes, we know his 3.90 ERA would be the highest of any Hall of Famer. But we still say that Morris' relentless acehood -- for nearly every team he ever pitched for -- makes his ERA semi-irrelevant.

In his 14 peak seasons (1979-92), Morris won 41 more games than any other starting pitcher around. He pitched a no-hitter. He started three All-Star Games. He was a No. 1 starter on three World Series teams. And if there's ever any debate about whether he was a real ace, he can cue up the videotape of Game 7, 1991. We'll think of that game for the next eight years -- every time we cast another fruitless vote for the best pitcher that nearly 60 percent of these voters manage to ignore every year.

SI

[Vince]

I would love to hear an opinion from you guys about Will Clark. I'm a hugely biased source, because he's probably my favorite player of all time. I don't really think he's deserving of the hall, but I thought he might have an outside shot.

I definitely think he's worth more than 4.4% of the vote.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

... and you could always pick an argument over whether he was better than Morris.

I haven't checked your profile to see, and I really don't remember off-hand, but I'm guessing we must be fairly close in age because I remember some of those discussions with a AL-fan friend of mine.

At his peak, I would have taken Stieb over Morris.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Vince

I would love to hear an opinion from you guys about Will Clark. I'm a hugely biased source, because he's probably my favorite player of all time. I don't really think he's deserving of the hall, but I thought he might have an outside shot.

I definitely think he's worth more than 4.4% of the vote.

I hated what he did to the 89 Cubs in the LCS if that counts for anything

SI

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Vince

I would love to hear an opinion from you guys about Will Clark. I'm a hugely biased source, because he's probably my favorite player of all time. I don't really think he's deserving of the hall, but I thought he might have an outside shot.

I definitely think he's worth more than 4.4% of the vote.

Will's power numbers just don't match up well for the 1B of his era. I always liked Clark, but his power just isn't HOF-1B-worthy.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Yes. He was a league average pitcher for most of his career.

Actually, he was better than league average for most of his career - he had an ERA+ of greater than 100 in 11 of his 18 seasons, a stretch of 8 straight and 9 out of 10 in his prime. He also should be given credit for being not just above league average in ERA but also being very durable. His VORP for these years was likely very high given the combination of ERA+ and IP.

I agree that he's not quite Hall of Fame material, but he's not that far off. Then again, the fact that Bert Blyleven hasn't made it in (and probably won't unless a veteran's committee in the future votes him in) shows that voting for recent starting pitchers is questionable.

[RendeR]

Yes, god forbid I cast any aspersions upon the almighty HoF, its not like getting in isn't 50% popularity or anything. If the writers didn't like you, you might as well go play golf.

Yes I had a strongly worded post, but I sure as fuck didn't attack anyone in it. I attacked the idea that a relief pitcher with ONE pitch deserved to be considered one of the best all-time. Dear god the HERESY.

Go back and read that shit you people posted. I didn't deserve a single fucking word of it. yes perhaps I wasn't candy ass nice about how I said what I did, but that wasn't about YOU folks now was it? It was about Gossage a guy with a great dfastball and an even better PR department.

Seriously, do either of you live or ever did live NEAR NYC when he played? I did, and I promise you the media made him their darling because he had "attitude" and tended to throw at people's heads as often as at the plate. He was a GOOD pitcher, but he sure as hell was GREAT. He was used the way closers are used today, 30 years before the league figured out that is how they should be used.

Again, grow up kids, stop blasting me because you don't like the fact that I don't kiss your ass when I post.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by John Galt

RendeR, are you always this bad of a poster or is it just today?

Wow I have one probably terribly worded post about a wannabe HoFer who i think isn't even close to being special and every tom- dick-and harry in the woodwork comes out to jump my shit.

Nice folks, real nice.Is this how you treat people when you talk to them in person? Holy hell.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Vince

I would love to hear an opinion from you guys about Will Clark. I'm a hugely biased source, because he's probably my favorite player of all time. I don't really think he's deserving of the hall, but I thought he might have an outside shot. I definitely think he's worth more than 4.4% of the vote.

I think he falls into that category of "nice player", "good" but not really "great". I think his HOF votes get hurt by him not being a power hitter at a power position, fair or not, that's what I think. And 2,176 career hits simply isn't enough to do it either.

And, although I don't want to get carried away with using it, I checked the "most similar" on him, just to see what it turned up
1 Bernie Williams (904)
2 Edgar Martinez (902)
3 Cecil Cooper (896)
4 John Olerud (893)
5 Bob Johnson (888)
6 Paul O'Neill (887)

And each one of those guys would pretty much get the same description of "good, but not great", so I'm at least consistent about it.

Just my .02, obviously YMMV.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Baseball HOF Penalty Box gets one new member

Fixed it for you.

[WSUCougar]

Render, I don't know when or why it happened, but somewhere along the way you became a very bitter, hostile, and often unpleasant poster. You're out of line on this one and you brought on the hostility with your own flippant remarks.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Yes, god forbid I cast any aspersions upon the almighty HoF, its not like getting in isn't 50% popularity or anything. If the writers didn't like you, you might as well go play golf.

I'm not defending the Hall of Fame - writers and veteran's committees have made a lot of mistakes over the years.

Originally Posted by RendeR

Yes I had a strongly worded post, but I sure as fuck didn't attack anyone in it. I attacked the idea that a relief pitcher with ONE pitch deserved to be considered one of the best all-time. Dear god the HERESY.

Again, you are hung up on the question of what Gossage threw. Does it not matter to you what the results were? It sure did matter to all those batters that made outs against him.

Originally Posted by RendeR

Go back and read that shit you people posted. I didn't deserve a single fucking word of it. yes perhaps I wasn't candy ass nice about how I said what I did, but that wasn't about YOU folks now was it? It was about Gossage a guy with a great dfastball and an even better PR department.

And what you still don't get is that it was more than just having a great fastball and pitching in the media capitol of the world - he also happened to get the best results.

Not only that, you were obnoxious in your dismissals of the initial arguments presented in favor of Gossage, displaying a complete lack of understanding of basic baseball analysis. You didn't directly call JiMG an idiot, but you implied as much when you suggested the similarity scores he posted were based of something as insubstantial as the player's names.

You deserved every bit of venom that was returned your way after your obnoxious and idiotic 2nd post.

Originally Posted by RendeR

Seriously, do either of you live or ever did live NEAR NYC when he played? I did, and I promise you the media made him their darling because he had "attitude" and tended to throw at people's heads as often as at the plate. He was a GOOD pitcher, but he sure as hell was GREAT. He was used the way closers are used today, 30 years before the league figured out that is how they should be used.

He may have been a media darling, but his performance justified it. As for his usage, you again display a complete lack of understanding of the game. He was most certainly not used like closers are today - he averaged well over 1 inning per appearence during his prime years as a closer (1.74 from '75 to '86, excluding '76 when he was a starter). He averaged over 2 innings per appearence in '75 and '78. The fact is, he frequently came in to games in the 7th or 8th inning to close out a win. He was never used in the modern way that Tony LaRussa redefined the role with Dennis Eckersley.

Originally Posted by RendeR

Again, grow up kids, stop blasting me because you don't like the fact that I don't kiss your ass when I post.

We're bashing you for your complete lack of understanding of the game and your dumb statements.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I don't get to do this very often with dawgfan, so ... what he said.

Yeah, I got a strange sensation that hell was freezing over when I realized how close in opinion we are on the subject...