Dubya Tee Eff?? Epstein's back in Boston?

[SirFozzie]

Associated Press

BOSTON -- The door was ajar, and Theo Epstein finally walked through it and back into the front office of the Boston Red Sox.

The most successful general manager in franchise history will rejoin the Red Sox baseball operations department in a full-time -- but otherwise unspecified -- position. His long-rumored return comes 2½ months after he turned down a contract extension and fled Fenway Park in a gorilla suit to avoid the encamped media.

"As you know, we have spoken frequently during the last 10 weeks," the team and Epstein said in a joint statement on Thursday night. "We have engaged in healthy, spirited debates about what it will take over the long term for the Red Sox to remain a great organization and, in fact, become a more effective organization in philosophy, approaches and ideals.

"Ironically, Theo's departure has brought us closer together in many respects, and, thanks to these conversations, we now enjoy the bonds of a shared vision for the organization's future that did not exist on Oct. 31. With this vision in place, Theo will return to the Red Sox in a full-time baseball operations capacity, details of which will be announced next week," the statement continued.

Epstein declined to elaborate on the statement, which also came from principal owner John Henry, chairman Tom Werner and president Larry Lucchino. The team would not comment on how Epstein will fit into the organization's hierarchy, but Henry denied that Lucchino's role was diminished to lure Epstein back.

"Larry's role does not change," Henry said. "Details next week."

Lucchino did not immediately respond to an e-mail seeking comment.

The Red Sox have been operating with co-GMs, former Epstein lieutenants Jed Hoyer and Ben Cherington. But their Dec. 12 promotions were overshadowed by persistent rumors that they would soon be working for Epstein again.

[jeff061]

Quite the soap opera Henry has spun.

[rkmsuf]

What a sham over there. Back up the truck, shut it down.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

His long-rumored return comes 2½ months after he turned down a contract extension and fled Fenway Park in a gorilla suit to avoid the encamped media.

That's deserving of a Dubya Tee Eff ... am I the only one who missed this tidbit the first time around?

[Ksyrup]

It came out about a week later. Pretty damn funny.

[Honolulu_Blue]

This "much ado about nothing" just keeps going and going and going... I understand that the Red Sox won the World Series while Theo was at the helm, but I just can't think of any really great GM moves he made. It seemed like the Yankees helped him out quite often by out bidding him for certain players and he had the second highest payroll in baseball to work with. I just don't see the genius.

[Ksyrup]

He personally wined and dined Schilling and made that trade happen, when it appeared to be a lost cause. If nothing else, Schilling kinda helped them win, didn't he?

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

He personally wined and dined Schilling and made that trade happen, when it appeared to be a lost cause. If nothing else, Schilling kinda helped them win, didn't he?

I don't really follow baseball. What did they trade for Schilling?

[jeff061]

He's also done a great job with their farm system. I don't remember the last time they had so many potential stars down there.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I don't really follow baseball. What did they trade for Schilling?

From some article I just googled:

"The Red Sox and Diamondbacks agreed on a trade that would send Curt Schilling to Boston on Monday, contingent on Schilling agreeing to waive his no-trade clause. After three days of negotiations, which included Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein having Thanksgiving dinner with the Schilling family, Schilling did just that on Friday. Arizona will receive Casey Fossum, Brandon Lyon and two minor leaguers, lefthander Jorge de la Rosa and outfielder Michael Goss. The Diamondbacks are expected to turn around and package de la Rosa in a trade for Brewers first baseman Richie Sexson."

[Ksyrup]

In other words...not much.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

In other words...not much.

Or in other words... a typical salary dump by a team that no longer considers itself competitive and wants to get rid of a high priced, aging ace to a team with a basically unlimited payroll. The wining and dining or whatever had to go on could certainly be a credit to Theo's perseverance (and good GMing), the actual parts of the trade aren't all that impressive. You see those deals all the time in non-capped leagues.

He seems a decent GM, just a bit overrated in my mind certainly with all this drama that's been circulating around him for the last few months.

[st.cronin]

I'll admit that I have no idea what's going on here.

[jeff061]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...110102176.html

All Epstein did in Boston was change the culture of the Red Sox. He signed David Ortiz before anyone realized he was MVP-good. He traded for Curt Schilling, and personally persuaded a reluctant Schilling over Thanksgiving dinner to accept the trade. He somehow figured how to keep Kevin Millar from going to Japan, even though Millar had already been traded there by the Marlins. He had the onions to trade demigod Nomar Garciaparra for two defensive guys, Orlando Cabrera and Doug Mientkiewicz, who -- hello -- owns the World Series ball. And oh, yeah, he signed Keith Foulke, whose knee injury this year probably cost the Red Sox a second championship.

But you don't follow baseball, so I'm not sure if you are just trying to troll.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Or in other words... a typical salary dump by a team that no longer considers itself competitive and wants to get rid of a high priced, aging ace to a team with a basically unlimited payroll. The wining and dining or whatever had to go on could certainly be a credit to Theo's perseverance (and good GMing), the actual parts of the trade aren't all that impressive. You see those deals all the time in non-capped leagues.

He seems a decent GM, just a bit overrated in my mind certainly with all this drama that's been circulating around him for the last few months.

Of course you're going to be slightly overrated when your team wins the WS. However Schilling didn't want to go to Boston, at all, so it was a big accomplishment. Epstein's biggest plus is personal credibility. Also give credit to Larry Luchino too though since he alienated A-Rod so much that he didn't want to play for Boston.

You really need to give Theo about five years before judging him though, as that's about how long it takes to build a good farm system.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by jeff061

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...110102176.html

But you don't follow baseball, so I'm not sure if you are just trying to troll.

First off, I never troll.

Second, while I don't follow baseball that closely, it's pretty much impossible to avoid Yankees/Red Sox talk as we're inundated with it all year around. I have a valid opinion and that is I think he's over rated as a GM and a lot of this "drama" is silly.

Consider …






• Many of the blockbuster moves he wanted to make over that time (Jose Contreras before 2003, Javy Vazquez and the Manny/A-Rod and Nomar/Magglio Ordonez trades before 2004, Carl Pavano and Adrian Beltre before 2005) would have worked out poorly in the end. In each case, his Plan B or C (keeping Manny, getting Curt Schilling and Orlando Cabrera) ended up being a better move than his original intention. Is that skill, is that luck, or is it a little of both? You tell me.





• Last winter, when the franchise had a free pass with fans to either A) bring back most of the championship team, or B) remake the franchise for the next 10 years, the Red Sox chose the curious direction of dumping certain key guys (Lowe, Pedro, Cabrera, Roberts) and spending too much money on iffy free agents (Edgar Renteria and Matt Clement), handicapping the team's payroll for the immediate future and leaving the team in the curious position of losing more World Series heroes this offseason (definitely Johnny Damon, possibly Manny) to keep guys who hadn't won anything with the team.





• He did a subpar job with the 2005 roster, remaining loyal with some guys too long during the season (Foulke, Bellhorn, Embree, Millar) and not making any of those Shawn Chacon/Aaron Small-type moves to keep the team rolling (with the exception of the Tony Graffanino trade). And that misguided loyalty raised the question, "Why weren't they as loyal to guys like Cabrera and Roberts?"



• If Posada's throw to second base in Game 4 of last year's ALCS is 1/10th of a second quicker, Roberts doesn't steal second and young Theo suddenly isn't getting a free ride for the A-Rod saga, the Nomar trade, the Renteria signing and everything else.

(Source: http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/...simmons/051101)

He won a WS. That's an impressive task, but slightly less impressive given the payroll. While a big payroll does not often equal on-field success, it certainly helps a GM out quite a bit, no?

[Desnudo]

Yes, that's why the Red Sox had dominated the World Series the prior 85 years.

[Young Drachma]

I think Theo's stock stayed high if he stayed away. But he must love that franchise and can't himself elsewhere. Plus, that payroll surely doesn't hurt. I mean, go from there to DC and see how much of a genius he is after that.

[jeff061]

• Many of the blockbuster moves he wanted to make over that time (Jose Contreras before 2003, Javy Vazquez and the Manny/A-Rod and Nomar/Magglio Ordonez trades before 2004, Carl Pavano and Adrian Beltre before 2005) would have worked out poorly in the end. In each case, his Plan B or C (keeping Manny, getting Curt Schilling and Orlando Cabrera) ended up being a better move than his original intention. Is that skill, is that luck, or is it a little of both? You tell me.

Can't argue hypotheticals.

• He did a subpar job with the 2005 roster, remaining loyal with some guys too long during the season (Foulke, Bellhorn, Embree, Millar)

That's a function of the coach. Francona's loyalty flaws are very well documented.

• Last winter, when the franchise had a free pass with fans to either A) bring back most of the championship team, or B) remake the franchise for the next 10 years, the Red Sox chose the curious direction of dumping certain key guys (Lowe, Pedro, Cabrera, Roberts) and spending too much money on iffy free agents (Edgar Renteria and Matt Clement), handicapping the team's payroll for the immediate future and leaving the team in the curious position of losing more World Series heroes this offseason (definitely Johnny Damon, possibly Manny) to keep guys who hadn't won anything with the team.

I'm sorry, I'm so sick of hearing this, though more from Boston fans than those looking in. Pedro was a punk ass, he was not worth the money and there was no way he would resign anyways. He was just using the Red Sox as a bargaining chip, good riddance to rotten rubbish. Derek Lowe was only good during the playoffs that world series year, he had stunk it up in the regular season for 3 years. Good guy, I like him, not worth the money. His playoff performance tinted a lot of glasses.

Roberts is a AAA player and who knew Renteria would lay the rotten egg he did? Cabrera was flashy in the field but his bat was a liability. Clement was an All-Star caliber player the first half of the year, then he took a line drive off the helmet and lost it. That was looking like a genius signing until that point.

[Ksyrup]

HB...no offense, but I don't understand why you're in this thread. You ask a decent question about whether Theo is overrated, then when someone gives you an example of what he did good, you say you don't remember one of the biggest and most important trades in baseball over the past 5 years by saying you don't follow baseball very closely. Then when someone questions why you would ask the question in the first place if you don't follow baseball, you quote - verbatim - someone else's argument about why Theo might be overrated.

Am I missing something here? You don't have personal knowledge of pretty much anything he's done during his tenure as GM, yet you want people to debate with you your opinion that he's overrated, which appears to have been formed because although you don't follow baseball, you can't seem to escape the Red Sox/Yankees talk.

I don't follow soccer, but I think Mikael Silvestre is overrated and I'd like someone to tell me why ManU shouldn't dump him.

[Subby]

It would be interesting to see what his legacy would be had Manny Ramirez been claimed by someone off of waivers the summer before they won the World Series...

[jeff061]

You can come up with a million hypotheticals for anyone who ever lived.

[McSweeny]

you guys didn't know this was coming? i thought everyone knew that he was staying in close contact with the team and it was a given that he'd return officially after his vaccation with Pearl Jam ended.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I don't follow soccer, but I think Mikael Silvestre is overrated and I'd like someone to tell me why ManU shouldn't dump him.

Wow.. you don't follow soccer?

Cuz that's like.. so accurate

[Desnudo]

I think he has a secret room in his house where he watches Fox Soccer Channel.