Of Denmark, Islam, and caricatures

[WSUCougar]

I assume most of you have heard about the caricatures, portraying the prophet Mohammed, initially published in a Danish newspaper. Subsequently published in Norway, Germany, and France (and perhaps elsewhere), the caricatures have created a lot of hostility in Islamic countries and areas throughout the world. LOTS.

But you can read about the details elsewhere - maybe even in a thread here at FOFC, I dunno.

What I'm curious about is this: if the caricatures are so utterly blasphemous to the point of causing major international incidents, and if the concept of any image depicting the prophet Mohammed is so heinous, how can a Jordanian newspaper reprint the caricatures?

A Jordanian newspaper took the bold step of publishing three of the caricatures Thursday, saying it was reprinting them to show readers "the extent of the Danish offense."

Next to the drawings, the Arabic weekly Shihan said in a headline: "This is how the Danish newspaper portrayed Prophet Muhammad, may God's blessing and peace be upon him."

That's like saying murder is a terrible act, and then capping someone to demonstrate how awful it is.

Someone enlighten me...

[PSUColonel]

I'd like to see them

[PSUColonel]

They're probably veryfuny

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

I assume most of you have heard about the caricatures, portraying the prophet Mohammed, initially published in a Danish newspaper. Subsequently published in Norway, Germany, and France (and perhaps elsewhere), the caricatures have created a lot of hostility in Islamic countries and areas throughout the world. LOTS.

But you can read about the details elsewhere - maybe even in a thread here at FOFC, I dunno.

What I'm curious about is this: if the caricatures are so utterly blasphemous to the point of causing major international incidents, and if the concept of any image depicting the prophet Mohammed is so heinous, how can a Jordanian newspaper reprint the caricatures?

That's like saying murder is a terrible act, and then capping someone to demonstrate how awful it is.

Someone enlighten me...

Pumping up your newspaper's circulation numbers. The bottom line trumps all.

[panerd]

I am amused in a sad way (same as the extreme anti-abortion nuts in this country) by the idiots who are so upset by Mohammed being portrayed as violent that they take hostages and make death threats to show their outrage.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

That's like saying murder is a terrible act, and then capping someone to demonstrate how awful it is.

We do that all the time. Texas especially.

[Drake]

Sounds like something is rotten in Denmark.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by panerd

I am amused in a sad way (same as the extreme anti-abortion nuts in this country) by the idiots who are so upset by Mohammed being portrayed as violent that they take hostages and make death threats to show their outrage.

Actually, the most effective way that this has been protested thus far was actually pretty non-violent. There is currently a campaign to boycott Danish goods sold in the Middle East. I heard a news story about a Danish dairy conglomerate who has been especially hurt by the boycott. It did enough damage to Danish businesses that the government actually tried to step in to try smooth things over.

http://www.dairyreporter.com/news/ng...e-east-boycott

[Klinglerware]

Dola - I'd just like to point out that from a free-speech standpoint, I don't think Jyllands-Posten should have to apologize at all for what they ran with. But of course, the flip side to that is that protestors should also have every right to challenge what is printed.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Drake

Sounds like something is rotten in Denmark.

A reference worth acknowledging, but alas, I know it won't..

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by KWhit

We do that all the time. Texas especially.

Well you have to admit it makes more sense when the person who actually committed the murder gets capped.

As for the topic. Christians in general don't seem to complain quite so much when God/Jesus is, I'll say defamed, in similar ways. I think individuals upset by this are overreacting to an extreme degree, and I find it hard to take any country seriously when they withdraw their ambassador over such a perceived sleight.

[MIJB#19]

I've seen the pics and I see nothing different than other political/religious caricatures I'm known to seeing. The moronic part is that some of the pictures are months old, but because some people found out only now it's all of a sudden a crime or something, according to some. This news has been around for a couple of days overhere. Some people threatened the entire European Union because one person made a drawing and a couple others decided to print them more than once.

Besides, the pics I've seen aren't even funny.

Where are our Danish correspondents when we need them!?

[JW]

We are not talking about mere protests here. We are talking about threats of violence and armed intimidation. This is an attempt to silence free speech and a free press through intimidation. It should not be allowed to stand. The response from the West should be a strong affirmation of the free press, free speech, and free expression.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060202/...ZhBHNlYwM3MjE-

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Outrage over caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad escalated in the Arab and Islamic world Thursday, with Palestinian gunmen briefly kidnapping a German citizen and protesters in Pakistan chanting "death to France" and "death to Denmark."

Palestinian militants surrounded European Union headquarters in Gaza, and gunmen burst into several hotels and apartments in the West Bank in search of foreigners to take hostage.

In Iraq, Islamic leaders urged worshippers to stage demonstrations from Baghdad to the southern city of Basra following weekly prayer services Friday. Afghanistan and Indonesia condemned the drawings, and Iran summoned the Austrian ambassador, whose country holds the EU presidency.

The issue opened divisions among European Union governments. Austrian Foreign Minister Ursula Plassnik said EU leaders have a responsibility to "clearly condemn" insults to any religion. But French Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy said he preferred "an excess of caricature to an excess of censorship."

Sarkozy joined journalists in rallying around the editorial director of France Soir, who was fired by the newspaper's Egyptian owner. France Soir and several other newspapers across Europe reprinted the caricatures this week in a show of support for freedom of expression.

The cartoons were first published in September in a Danish newspaper, touching off anger among Muslims who knew about it. The issue reignited last week after Saudi Arabia recalled its ambassador to Denmark.

The Danish newspaper, Jyllands-Posten, had asked 40 cartoonists to draw images of the prophet. The purpose, its chief editor said, was "to examine whether people would succumb to self-censorship, as we have seen in other cases when it comes to Muslim issues."

Islamic law, based on clerics' interpretation of the Quran and the sayings of the prophet, forbids depictions of the Prophet Muhammad and other major religious figures — even positive ones — to prevent idolatry. Shiite Muslim clerics differ in that they allow images of their greatest saint, Ali, the prophet's son-in-law, though not Muhammad.

Critics say the drawings were particularly insulting because some appeared to ridicule Muhammad. One cartoon showed the prophet wearing a turban shaped as a bomb.

France's Grand Rabbi Joseph Sitruk said he shared Muslim anger.

"We gain nothing by lowering religions, humiliating them and making caricatures of them. It's a lack of honesty and respect," he said. He said freedom of expression "is not a right without limits."

In the Arab world, a Jordanian newspaper, Shihan, took the bold step Thursday of running some of the drawings, saying it wanted to show its readers how offensive the cartoons were but also urging the world's Muslims to "be reasonable." Its editorial noted that Jyllands-Posten had apologized, "but for some reason, nobody in the Muslim world wants to hear the apology."

Hours later, the Jordanian government threatened legal action against Shihan, and the owners of the weekly said they had fired its chief editor, Jihad al-Momani, and withdrawn the issue from sale.

The outrage Thursday was most tangible in the Palestinian territories, where Norway and Denmark closed diplomatic offices after masked gunmen threatened to kidnap foreigners in Gaza.

Palestinian gunmen in the West Bank searched several hotels, and a German citizen was briefly kidnapped by gunmen from a hotel in the city of Nablus. Palestinian police freed the German, a teacher, after less than an hour.

Foreign reporters either pulled out of Gaza on Thursday or canceled plans to go to the coastal strip.

Palestinian security officials said they would try to protect foreigners in Gaza. Nineteen foreigners have been kidnapped in Gaza in recent months; all were freed unharmed.

The protests in the Palestinian territories came a week after the Islamic militant group Hamas defeated the ruling Fatah Party in parliamentary elections.

In one unusual twist, Mahmoud Zahar, a Hamas leader, visited a Gaza church Thursday and promised protection to Christians after Fatah gunmen threatened to target churches as part of their protests. Zahar offered to dispatch gunmen from Hamas' military wing, the Izzedine al Qassam Brigades, to guard the church.

"You are our brothers," Zahar told Father Manuel Musallam of the Holy Family Church.

In Gaza City, a dozen gunmen linked to Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas' defeated Fatah Party surrounded the EU Commission's local office.

One of the militants, flanked by two masked men with assault rifles, said the governments of Germany, France, Norway and Denmark must apologize for the cartoons by Thursday evening. If no apology is issued, the gunmen said they would target citizens of the four countries and shut down media offices, including the French news agency.

"Any citizens of these countries, who are present in Gaza, will put themselves in danger," the gunman said.

About 10 armed Palestinians gathered later at the French cultural center in Gaza City and warned of a "tough response" to any further disparagement of Muhammad.

Only a few dozen foreigners from the targeted countries were in Gaza on Thursday. Many others pulled out in recent months, following a spate of abductions of foreigners by Fatah-linked gunmen.

Danish and French members of an international observer team at the Rafah crossing between Gaza and Egypt stayed away from Gaza on Thursday, and instead worked from the group's headquarters in the Israeli town of Ashkelon, said a spokesman, Julio de La Guardia.

Gunhild Forselv, spokeswoman for the international mission in the West Bank town of Hebron, said she was in touch with community leaders and was not concerned for the safety of the 72-member observer force, which includes 21 Norwegians and 11 Danes. "We don't feel threatened," she said.

The EU's election observers were winding down operations, as planned, said Mathias Eick, who is German. He said the Gaza office had been closed and that 49 observers were in Ramallah. "There were security risks even before the election and nothing has changed," he said.

Norway closed its representative office in the West Bank to the public because of the threats, but said the 23-member staff remained on the job.

The Danish Foreign Ministry in Copenhagen said all Danes, except for two diplomats, have left the West Bank and Gaza in recent days. The Danish representative office in the West Bank was to be closed Friday because of the threats, a diplomat said.

In Nablus, gunmen from the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, a violent Fatah offshoot, went to four hotels and told staff they must not host Europeans from the targeted countries. The gunmen said they searched two apartments for foreigners to kidnap, but didn't find any. Foreigners now have three days to leave town, the gunmen said in an impromptu news conference after their fruitless search.

[sterlingice]

Because no one ever makes fun of religious figures




SI

[-Mojo Jojo-]

These countries protesting this are making serious political mistake. George Bush has tried as hard as he can to get Europe to sign on with his war on terror and he has failed. Europe has been far more sympathetic to muslims and arabs than the US. But trying to tell all these European countries that they no longer have the right to free speech when it offends muslims is going to drive that support away faster than they can say Mohammed. This is a weak hand that is being severely overplayed. Where Bush failed, bullshit like this might succeed.

[Solecismic]

At some point, you have to realize that the bully is never going to be your friend, even when you hand over your lunch money willingly every day and you do his homework.

Some day you're going to inadvertently insult him and he's still going to pound you into the dirt.

[Cotton]

Salmon Rushdie is still alive. And his death warrant was probably great P.R. Though, I'm sure he soiled a few pairs of drawers at first.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by -Mojo Jojo-

These countries protesting this are making serious political mistake. George Bush has tried as hard as he can to get Europe to sign on with his war on terror and he has failed. Europe has been far more sympathetic to muslims and arabs than the US. But trying to tell all these European countries that they no longer have the right to free speech when it offends muslims is going to drive that support away faster than they can say Mohammed. This is a weak hand that is being severely overplayed. Where Bush failed, bullshit like this might succeed.

Europe is more symphatic to Muslims?! What? Have you seen France? Or, say, the ghettos in Germany and Sweden? The US integrates Muslims, Europe segregates them. I'd say the US is far more sympathetic to Muslims than Europe (generally speaking) is.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

I've seen the pics and I see nothing different than other political/religious caricatures I'm known to seeing. The moronic part is that some of the pictures are months old, but because some people found out only now it's all of a sudden a crime or something, according to some. This news has been around for a couple of days overhere. Some people threatened the entire European Union because one person made a drawing and a couple others decided to print them more than once.

Besides, the pics I've seen aren't even funny.

Where are our Danish correspondents when we need them!?

Yes, which is why the newspaper shouldn't have apologized. On the radio, the Danish editor was on explaining that the cartoons were in line with the material that they post targeting other issues. So, instead of apologizing, they should have ramped up the edginess of cartoons, especially against controversial Christian issues to hammer the point that they were equal opportunity.

I remember when I was in college, one of the campus publications published a rather graphic cartoon depicting Jesus having anal sex with God (or an altar boy, it was years ago and I forget which). It barely got much of a reaction at all from the campus community. Why? Because that type of editorial cartoon was par for the course for that publication so nobody thought twice about it. If you do controversial cartoons every day against multiple targets, the people will come to expect it and eventually will cease to be so outraged.

[Cotton]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

It barely got much of a reaction at all from the campus community. Why? Because that type of editorial cartoon was par for the course for that publication so nobody thought twice about it.

Or maybe just because it was in a college publication to begin with. I didn't know anyone ever read those things until now... or did you just look at the picture?

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by - Mojo Jojo-

These countries protesting this are making serious political mistake. George Bush has tried as hard as he can to get Europe to sign on with his war on terror and he has failed. Europe has been far more sympathetic to muslims and arabs than the US. But trying to tell all these European countries that they no longer have the right to free speech when it offends muslims is going to drive that support away faster than they can say Mohammed. This is a weak hand that is being severely overplayed. Where Bush failed, bullshit like this might succeed.

Don't throw all European countries on one trash pile called Europe, there is no such a thing as 'Europe' on this matter. Some countries traditionally have goverments who would follow Bush (or any other US preisdent) without thinking about the consequences (UK, Netherlands, a.o.) and some will be against him no matter what (France, Germany, a.o.). And even these examples aren't always appliciable.

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Europe is more symphatic to Muslims?! What? Have you seen France? Or, say, the ghettos in Germany and Sweden? The US integrates Muslims, Europe segregates them. I'd say the US is far more sympathetic to Muslims than Europe (generally speaking) is.

Again, please don't throw all European countries (governments) on one pile of garbage.

Overhere in Maassluis we have such a muslim ghetto. The muslim groups live together and seperated (Moroccans and Turkish basically seperated). In the 1970's the government thought that getting people with the same origins to live together was the best way to go. There are the normal problems that come around with ghetto's, but it's not centered to just the muslims who live there. A big group of muslims fit in well into the Dutch community here.

Sure, also in the Netherlands some extremist muslims abuse their freedom of speech and religion to preach against freedom of speech and religion. But these extremists life in every religion. The problem is that the attention is centered around the (anti-)muslim movement. For Christ's sake, some political party in the house of representatives here wants all women stripped from their rights to vote, but they fly by under the radar right now.

[KeyserSoze]

I always defend the right to the free speecho (like this) even I don't like the message.

[Tekneek]

Ok, Muslims, it is time to grow up. It's time to get a sense of humor, even regarding your own religion.

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

What I'm curious about is this: if the caricatures are so utterly blasphemous to the point of causing major international incidents, and if the concept of any image depicting the prophet Mohammed is so heinous, how can a Jordanian newspaper reprint the caricatures?

Anybody want to take a crack at this from a logic standpoint?

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

Anybody want to take a crack at this from a logic standpoint?

It is ok to do that if your purpose is to inform, rather than to demean? Or, they have a double standard and Muslims are allowed to do something that non-Muslims cannot? The truth is probably a mix of the two.

[Brillig]

For those interested in the origins of the drawings:

The drawings were first published in September in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten. The issue reignited last week after Saudi Arabia recalled its ambassador to Denmark and many European newspapers reprinted them this week.


The Jyllands-Posten had asked 40 cartoonists to draw images of the prophet. The purpose, its chief editor said, was "to examine whether people would succumb to self-censorship, as we have seen in other cases when it comes to Muslim issues."

It seems that one way or another the newspaper was determined to create controversy - which I defend their right to do. It's rather amusing that Western governments are now falling over themselves (including ours, btw) to condemn these drawings.

While recognizing the importance of freedom of the press and expression, State Department press officer Janelle Hironimus said these rights must be coupled with press responsibility.


"Inciting religious or ethnic hatred in this manner is not acceptable," Hironimus said. "We call for tolerance and respect for all communities and for their religious beliefs and practices."

Still waiting for someone to call on these enraged Muslim communities to practice tolerance and respect.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

A reference worth acknowledging, but alas, I know it won't..

Bah, he didn't even state the quote right.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Bah, he didn't even state the quote right.

To think, perchance to dream about getting it right might be nice, but I think the change (like mine) was intentional..

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Brillig

Still waiting for someone to call on these enraged Muslim communities to practice tolerance and respect.

Don't hold your breath. There's a very well established double standard there.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Brillig

It seems that one way or another the newspaper was determined to create controversy - which I defend their right to do. It's rather amusing that Western governments are now falling over themselves (including ours, btw) to condemn these drawings.

Shameful that Western governments, supposedly proud of their freedoms, would condemn such a thing. The Middle East is already in charge.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

To think, perchance to dream about getting it right might be nice, but I think the change (like mine) was intentional..

Aye...there's the rub I suppose.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Shameful that Western governments, supposedly proud of their freedoms, would condemn such a thing. The Middle East is already in charge.

*sigh*

SI

[Drake]

Aye...there's the rub I suppose.

All of this misquoted Shakespeare should be copied into the Ping: Non-scientists thread.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

Anybody want to take a crack at this from a logic standpoint?

Actually, my flippant remark equating this to our capital punishment policy isn't too far off, I don't think.

We, as a nation, say that killing a human being is wrong (even if they want to end their own life). However, we condone killing in certain circumstances in order to do two things:
1) Punish the guilty
2) To deter others from committing certain crimes

I imagine the newspaper sees this issue in a similar way. They likely feel they are punishing the parties that offended them by showing the cartoons in order to create more anger at the papers that printed them. It's one thing to read about something that is offensive, but it won't affect you the same as seeing it. Showing the cartoons created a greater reaction than just reporting on them would have. Therefore, it punishes the papers that printed them and deters other papers from doing something similar down the road.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by KWhit

Therefore, it punishes the papers that printed them and deters other papers from doing something similar down the road.

It's unfortunate that this doesn't inspire more of it. If nearly every newspaper in the 'West' ran the caricatures on the front page for the next week, what would anybody really do about it?

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by KWhit

I imagine the newspaper sees this issue in a similar way. They likely feel they are punishing the parties that offended them by showing the cartoons in order to create more anger at the papers that printed them. It's one thing to read about something that is offensive, but it won't affect you the same as seeing it. Showing the cartoons created a greater reaction than just reporting on them would have. Therefore, it punishes the papers that printed them and deters other papers from doing something similar down the road.

I agree with your general line of thinking, but what differentiates it in this case, at least as far as I can tell, is that creating caricatures of Mohammed is not simply something that "angers" Muslims. It is complete and utter blasphemy. I am trying to discern the difference between something that angers people to the point of creating international incidents over it, and something that is so heinous from a religious standpoint that it does so.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

I agree with your general line of thinking, but what differentiates it in this case, at least as far as I can tell, is that creating caricatures of Mohammed is not simply something that "angers" Muslims. It is complete and utter blasphemy. I am trying to discern the difference between something that angers people to the point of creating international incidents over it, and something that is so heinous from a religious standpoint that it does so.

No, you have a point. No defense, but my understanding of Christianity is that this would be a "lesser" crime from a Christian theological standpoint than an Islamic one. The Jordanian newspaper's logic (tortured as it may be) might be that they are providing access to what the blasphemy was, not engaging in it themselves.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

I agree with your general line of thinking, but what differentiates it in this case, at least as far as I can tell, is that creating caricatures of Mohammed is not simply something that "angers" Muslims. It is complete and utter blasphemy. I am trying to discern the difference between something that angers people to the point of creating international incidents over it, and something that is so heinous from a religious standpoint that it does so.

It's doublethink. Don't you think that killing is considered heinous from a religious standpoint here? Hell, it's in the 10 commandments!

[Drake]

After reading today's article on usatoday.com, all I have to say is:

Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke.

[thrym]

Originally Posted by KWhit

It's doublethink. Don't you think that killing is considered heinous from a religious standpoint here? Hell, it's in the 10 commandments!

Isn't it '...thou shall not commit murder...'?

The "State" gets away with it because they call it an execution and its a form of justice...but then there is abortion...is that murder or justice...or a different can of worms all together?

Not to go TOO far off topic here, how is it that it would have been legal for Lacy Petersen to abort her child the day before she was murdered by Scott, but Scott gets a double murder conviction because she didn't? Double standards if you ask me...but back to the other important stuff...thanks for letting me vent!

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by thrym

Not to go TOO far off topic here, how is it that it would have been legal for Lacy Petersen to abort her child the day before she was murdered by Scott, but Scott gets a double murder conviction because she didn't?

She was 7 and a half months pregnant. I do not believe you can get an abortion in California that late in the pregnancy.

[thrym]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

She was 7 and a half months pregnant. I do not believe you can get an abortion in California that late in the pregnancy.

Your probably right, I just figured of ALL the states that would allow "Partial-Birth" abortions on request, CA would...so THAT example wouldn't be correct but I think in a general sense(change the names to protect my ignorace) it still stands...

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by thrym

Isn't it '...thou shall not commit murder...'?

Depends on the translation, I think, but I have seen it both ways.

[Tekneek]

While recognizing the importance of freedom of the press and expression, State Department press officer Janelle Hironimus said these rights must be coupled with press responsibility.

"Inciting religious or ethnic hatred in this manner is not acceptable," Hironimus said. "We call for tolerance and respect for all communities and for their religious beliefs and practices."

I really don't think the press of every community on the planet must concern themselves with the religious beliefs and practices of every other community on the planet.

EDIT...

"Whoever defames our prophet should be executed," said Ismail Hassan, 37, a tailor who marched through the pouring rain along with hundreds of others in the West Bank city of Ramallah.

"Bin Laden our beloved, Denmark must be blown up," protesters in Ramallah chanted.

...

"If they want a war of religions, we are ready," Hassan Sharaf, an imam in Nablus, said in his sermon.

"We are ready to redeem you with our souls and our blood our beloved prophet," they chanted. "Down, Down Denmark."

And so we see again the dangers of wrapping yourself up in religious dogma. You want people to die for caricatures of a religious figure.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by -Mojo Jojo-

... Europe has been far more sympathetic to muslims and arabs than the US. ...

I really don't think this is the case at all. There are a lot of european countries that are coming pretty close to openly discriminating against Muslims. The French with their ban on Head dresses and veils in schools. One of the Nordic countries, I think, is in the middle of passing a law preventing the wearing of Burkhas(sp?)

I don't think Europe in general treats either Jews or Muslims with the same equality they experience here in the US.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by thrym

Not to go TOO far off topic here, how is it that it would have been legal for Lacy Petersen to abort her child the day before she was murdered by Scott, but Scott gets a double murder conviction because she didn't? Double standards if you ask me...but back to the other important stuff...thanks for letting me vent!

To indulge you a bit with the partial thread-jack--I can't believe they charged Scott Peterson with a double murder, and got away with it without much controversy. It does sound a bit politically motivated to me.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Drake

After reading today's article on usatoday.com, all I have to say is:

Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke.

Yep, as I alluded to in an earlier post, instead of apologizing the paper should have run something like a cartoon of Jesus molesting an altar boy (doesn't have to be graphic, but suggestive enough to get the message across), or something along those lines. That would be a satirical way of pointing out a serious issue in the Catholic Church (on par with the violence and Islam cartoon) and would support the paper's claim that they engage in equal opportunity satire.

[Super Ugly]

The media here in the UK has decided not to broadcast or publish the cartoons (which is, I think, a very good move), but I have seen a few of them, including the bomb-as-turban picture. I've been following the debate over the past couple of days (there's been little talk of anything else), and - issues of free speech aside - I can't see any redeeming satirical value in these cartoons. They're not funny, and they don't offer anything to the 'debate' - they're crude, badly-drawn cheap shots that wouldn't be out of place on the walls of a public toilet. We can say 'grow up' to those who've been offended, but they're well within their rights to be mad as hell right now (although that's not to excuse the gunman-militia crap, of course).

[biological warrior]

It's funny how the media portrays these gatherings as ''protests'' while a bunch of Christians and Catholics protesting similar issues would be called ''out of touch'' and/ or vrackpots.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by biological warrior

It's funny how the media portrays these gatherings as ''protests'' while a bunch of Christians and Catholics protesting similar issues would be called ''out of touch'' and/ or vrackpots.

Really? Can you give me any examples of the mainstream media portraying Christian/Catholic protestors protesting something that is strictly forbidden under their religion as "out of touch" and/or crackpots? If I recall, just a few weeks back there were a ton of Christian and Catholic protestors in DC (pro-lifers) during the anniversary of Roe v. Wade. I don't recall any mainstream media outlets ever referring to them as "out of touch" or crackpots.

Poor the Christians! Such a hard life here in America. So persecuted and put upon by that vile and all powerful media. If only Christians had some voice in the government maybe things would be different. If only there were Christians in seats of power, perhaps this parade of horribles that befalls them in America would not be happening! Woe be them!

FYI: Most Catholics I know are under the impression they are Christians.


I have no sympathy for these protestors. I am all for freedom of speech, it's just the Christian persecution complex in America just sticks in my craw.