Who would you vote OUT of the Football HOF?

[miami_fan]

With today being the day that HOF opens its door to new members, I wonder who would everyone remove from the HOF. Granted most of us have not seen most of the HOFers play in their prime, though that numbers is rising as the years go by. The first HOF class where I really remember seeing a member play in his prime was the class of 87 with Joe Greene being the guy.

For me, Lynn Swann is the guy.

[Buccaneer]

Steve Young

[Havok]

Namath

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Steve Young

I knew there was a reason that I like Bucc.

[cthomer5000]

Joe Namath is a definite candidate. I know he's conisdered possibly the worst guy in the hall by many.

[Dutch]

But he's one of the most famous. That has to count for something!

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Steve Young

But only because his years with the 49'ers skewed his numbers.

[Darkiller]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Steve Young

LOL

[Buccaneer]

You think I'm joking???

[Young Drachma]

I think the Football HOF has the worst process of any of them. Because it seems so clubby and lends itself to whoever gets the more promotion or who has a name. But then...the whole process is one that won't make everyone happy, because there isn't a way to do that.

[sabotai]

I vote Namath. I saw a book several years ago on the top 20 QBs of all time. THis was before I really knew anything about Namath, other than he won Super Bowl 3. It had a listing of all of their stats.

Now, I know stats are very contigent on a player's supporting cast, and I know this was during a different era of football, but Namath's numbers were just flat out terrible, for a top QB.

Seriously, it looked as if Trent Dilfer got into the HOF, it's just Namath managed to stay on 1 team. That was the only difference, really.

[Darkiller]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

Joe Namath is a definite candidate. I know he's conisdered possibly the worst guy in the hall by many.

Namath had three things for him :
- Played in NY so was highly mediatized
- First QB to ever throw for 4000 yards in a season
- Being a SuperBowl MVP, especially after the guarantee thing...

Now aside from that...you won't hear his name often mentionned among the top QBs to ever play. But there it goes, there are now (with Aikman & Moon) about 30 QBs enshrined in the Hall of Fame...and he is one of them...

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

I think the Football HOF has the worst process of any of them. Because it seems so clubby and lends itself to whoever gets the more promotion or who has a name. But then...the whole process is one that won't make everyone happy, because there isn't a way to do that.

I agree. As critical as I have been of baseball's HOF (the numbers should cut by a third), football is even worse. Its clubbiness has led to inducting way too many 70s Steelers and more 80s/90s 49ers than deserving.

[panerd]

OJ Simpson

[Darkiller]

dola / Namath.
That should be checked but I think he has more INT than TD in his career...ouch

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

I agree. As critical as I have been of baseball's HOF (the numbers should cut by a third), football is even worse. Its clubbiness has led to inducting way too many 70s Steelers and more 80s/90s 49ers than deserving.

2 from the 80s 49ers (Montana and Lott), and who else besides Young from the 90s? (Other than Jerry Rice, who will make it in soon)

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by sabotai

2 from the 80s 49ers (Montana and Lott), and who else besides Young from the 90s? (Other than Jerry Rice, who will make it in soon)

Still one too many.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Darkiller

dola / Namath.
That should be checked but I think he has more INT than TD in his career...ouch

173 TDs, 220 INTs and a 50.1 Completion percentage.

[Young Drachma]

Wow, his numbers are awful. At least, for a hall of famer anyway.

And I'm a Jets fan.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by panerd

OJ Simpson

Remember the football voters pride themselves on NOT taking into consideration anything that happens off the field

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Remember the football voters pride themselves on NOT taking into consideration anything that happens off the field

Surely he was voted in well before that happened, so..it was moot at that point. Besides, despite the seemingly everyone on the planet (Well, at least some people) thinking he's guilty, he was acquitted.

So....it'd be moot anyway.

[Darkiller]

Originally Posted by sabotai

2 from the 80s 49ers (Montana and Lott), and who else besides Young from the 90s? (Other than Jerry Rice, who will make it in soon)

yeah, I was (of course ) just going to post this.
Now that two Cowboys have been enshrined today, I can't start myself complaining about an anti-49ers bias ...

A team that went to 5 SuperBowls in a 14 year span, winning all of them, the "team of the 80's" and arguable one of the top3 teams of the '90's (with Dallas and GreenBay), ONLY HAS Coach Bill Walsh, QB Joe Montana, CB/S Ronnie Lott and QB Steve Young in the Hall of fame ?!?!?!
Ok so WR Jerry Rice will join in 4 years but still...how come (for instance) a guy like RB Roger Craig does not even make the 25 semi-finalists list ?!?!

[stevew]

Namath's career rating was 65 and some change if I'm compiling it correctly. Wow.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by stevew

Namath's career rating was 65 and some change if I'm compiling it correctly. Wow.

Yeah, 65.462. With 50.1% completion and a career 173/220 TD/INT ratio.

[Darkiller]

The guy I'd vote OUT of the Hall of Fame woud be QB Bob Griese...
Even in their magical 1972 season, he only started 5 games and was injured the whole rest of the way before coming back for the SuperBowl...

[clintl]

Griese was a much better QB than Namath.

[clintl]

Dola...

Who says it has to be a player?

I'd vote out Al Davis for being such a greedy asshole who has no loyalty to his fans, and then blames other people when they don't show up at games. Any contributions he made prior to 1980 have been more than negated in the last 25 years.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by Darkiller

A team that went to 5 SuperBowls in a 14 year span, winning all of them, the "team of the 80's" and arguable one of the top3 teams of the '90's (with Dallas and GreenBay), ONLY HAS Coach Bill Walsh, QB Joe Montana, CB/S Ronnie Lott and QB Steve Young in the Hall of fame ?!?!?!
Ok so WR Jerry Rice will join in 4 years but still...how come (for instance) a guy like RB Roger Craig does not even make the 25 semi-finalists list ?!?!

They had some great linemen too that were on those 80s teams. Guys like Randy Cross, Guy McIntire, etc. What about Rathman at FB?

My problem with the HoF for football is that all positions should be represented in proportion to the numbers that you have on the field. So there should be, in theory, 5 OL guys for every QB in the Hall, of course, I know that is not the case.

[Warhammer]

Namath would be my guy to not make the Hall.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Still one too many.

Outside of an irrational hatred of Young, I'm not sure what you have against him Buc. I mean, the numbers don't lie. He went to 7 consecutive pro bowls. He's the career NFL completion leader. He averaged 8 yards per pass attempt in his career. He won a Super Bowl, was the MVP of that Super Bowl and threw 6 TD passes in it. He led the league in passer rating four or five years in a row at one stretch. He was named MVP of the league twice.

And he ran for over 4,000 career yards and 43 TD's from the QB position.

I can understand the people who believe he was overrated because of the team around him. (though I can't understand how one of those same people says the more Niners shouldn't get into the hall of fame if that's the theory)

But all we can do is look at numbers and wins. Steve Young has enough of both to belong in the hall. I can't come up with a single rational arguement that would show he doesn't.

[TroyF]

DOLA,

My vote would go to Namath or Swann as well.

[ISiddiqui]

Bucc doesn't have rational arguments .

[mckerney]

Lynn Swann and John Stallworth

[astrosfan64]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Outside of an irrational hatred of Young, I'm not sure what you have against him Buc. I mean, the numbers don't lie. He went to 7 consecutive pro bowls. He's the career NFL completion leader. He averaged 8 yards per pass attempt in his career. He won a Super Bowl, was the MVP of that Super Bowl and threw 6 TD passes in it. He led the league in passer rating four or five years in a row at one stretch. He was named MVP of the league twice.

And he ran for over 4,000 career yards and 43 TD's from the QB position.

I can understand the people who believe he was overrated because of the team around him. (though I can't understand how one of those same people says the more Niners shouldn't get into the hall of fame if that's the theory)

But all we can do is look at numbers and wins. Steve Young has enough of both to belong in the hall. I can't come up with a single rational arguement that would show he doesn't.

Agreed with this above statement 100%. Young has to be in the Hall of Fame.

[kcchief19]

In fairness to Joe Willie, there are quaterbacks with worse numbers in the hall -- see Bob Waterfield and Bobby Layne. Namath also compares somewhat more favorably with his contemporaries, just not today's players. Before the early '80s, a great career quarterback rating was 80 anything over 70-75 were superstar levels. Len Dawson and Bart Starr were the cream of the crop until the '80s and their ratings were just over 80. Namath was the entire offense -- Matt Snell was an average back at best, and Don Maynard was better with Namath throwing him the ball. The Jets were on of the best offenses in the league until Namath's knees went out on him.

That said, Namath is in the hall for the biggest and most significant win in pro football history, for choosing to play in the AFL to begin with giving the league credibility (Namath was selected by the Cardinals in the first round of the NFL draft) and for doing all of it colorfully.

Al Davis is a great pick to kick out, but sticking with a player I'll go with Fred Biletnikoff. They topped 1,000 yards and averaged 40 catches a year. He played a long time which padded his numbers. But of the 589 career catches he had, I guarantee that he cheated on every single one of them. He was the man who introduced "Stickum" to the NFL, which for you younsters was this sticky stuff you put on your hands that make it almost impossible not to catch the ball if it hits your hands. Any excuse to kick a Raider out of the hall is a good one.

[Senator]

Paul Hornung

[OldGiants]

Originally Posted by Senator

Paul Hornung

A thoroughly uninformed comment, one mostly based on your not understanding the NFL played 12 game seasons when Hornung played.

He still owns the record with 176 points scored in 1960, almost 15 per game. That translates into 235 points in a modern 16 game season. Since 45 seasons have been played since Hornung set that record, you'd think somebody would come close. But no.

Led the league in scoring three straight years and was league MVP in 1961. so many more in the Hall never did that much.

http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/me...p?player_id=99

[QuikSand]

Is individual scoring really an impressive record? Hornung, as I recall, kicked as well as rushed... that seems to be a cherry-picked stat for such a guy to me. I have no strong opinion on Hornung, really, I confess.

[Senator]

Originally Posted by OldGiants

A thoroughly uninformed comment, one mostly based on your not understanding the NFL played 12 game seasons when Hornung played.

He still owns the record with 176 points scored in 1960, almost 15 per game. That translates into 235 points in a modern 16 game season. Since 45 seasons have been played since Hornung set that record, you'd think somebody would come close. But no.

Led the league in scoring three straight years and was league MVP in 1961. so many more in the Hall never did that much.

http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/me...p?player_id=99

I have been called many things, but uninformed would not be one of them. Especially about the early days of football. It is just my opinion, don't have a hernia over it.

[OldGiants]

How about taking out the RB whose career spanned a mere 68 games and had two seasons that read:

rushes receptions


23 52 2.3 0 | 1 -6 -6.0 0 |

13 38 2.9 0 | 0 0 0.0 0 |

His bio also mentions he's not in the top 50 in any major category.

So why is this man in the HOF?

[QuikSand]

Is that Gayle Sayers, perhaps? There's an argument for dropping him, I reckon, especially if you argue that the HOF shoudl be about recognizing long term adequacy, more than established brilliance.

[OldGiants]

Originally Posted by Senator

I have been called many things, but uninformed would not be one of them. Especially about the early days of football. It is just my opinion, don't have a hernia over it.

Huh. Looks like "uninformed" hit a raw nerve with you. Must be much more to it than you're letting on.

So be it. You're the expert about everything.

[OldGiants]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Is that Gayle Sayers, perhaps? There's an argument for dropping him, I reckon, especially if you argue that the HOF shoudl be about recognizing long term adequacy, more than established brilliance.

Yup.

That leaves out his return greatness, but it does go to the heart of the longevity issue. He was cut short by a terrible injury, but he's got the Brian Piccolo factor working for him, too.

[Senator]

No, but I do have an idea about what I am talking about before I write something down.

The guy had 3000 yards rushing.
So what, he scored. So did Zach Crockett, lets put him in.

[Hurst2112]

That would be Gayle. Un-freakin real. Boot him, Swann and Stallworth. And I'm a Steeler fan!

PHP Code:

|          Rushing         |        Receiving        |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Year  TM |   G |   Att  Yards    Y/A   TD |   Rec  Yards   Y/R   TD |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 1965 chi |  14 |   166    867    5.2   14 |    29    507  17.5    6 |
| 1966 chi |  14 |   229   1231    5.4    8 |    34    447  13.1    2 |
| 1967 chi |  13 |   186    880    4.7    7 |    16    126   7.9    1 |
| 1968 chi |   9 |   138    856    6.2    2 |    15    117   7.8    0 |
| 1969 chi |  14 |   236   1032    4.4    8 |    17    116   6.8    0 |
| 1970 chi |   2 |    23     52    2.3    0 |     1     -6  -6.0    0 |
| 1971 chi |   2 |    13     38    2.9    0 |     0      0   0.0    0 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
|  TOTAL   |  68 |   991   4956    5.0   39 |   112   1307  11.7    9 


[QuikSand]

I wonder if you took the starting RB and the starting kicker on various NFL teams, now frequently they would sum to a greater total than the per-game number from Hornung. Wouldn't that be a fairer comparison, since the multi-role player is no longer? (Or was Hornung only a part-time kicker... I can't recall, honestly)

[Hurst2112]

The Golden Boy:

PHP Code:

|          Rushing         |        Receiving        |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Year  TM |   G |   Att  Yards    Y/A   TD |   Rec  Yards   Y/R   TD |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 1957 gnb |  12 |    60    319    5.3    3 |     6     34   5.7    0 |
| 1958 gnb |  12 |    69    310    4.5    2 |    15    137   9.1    0 |
| 1959 gnb |  12 |   152    681    4.5    7 |    15    113   7.5    0 |
| 1960 gnb |  12 |   160    671    4.2   13 |    28    257   9.2    2 |
| 1961 gnb |  12 |   127    597    4.7    8 |    15    145   9.7    2 |
| 1962 gnb |   9 |    57    219    3.8    5 |     9    168  18.7    2 |
| 1964 gnb |  14 |   103    415    4.0    5 |     9     98  10.9    0 |
| 1965 gnb |  12 |    89    299    3.4    5 |    19    336  17.7    3 |
| 1966 gnb |   9 |    76    200    2.6    2 |    14    192  13.7    3 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
|  TOTAL   | 104 |   893   3711    4.2   50 |   130   1480  11.4   12 | 


[Hurst2112]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I wonder if you took the starting RB and teh starting kicker on various NFL teams, now frequently they woudl sum to a greater total than the per-game number from Hornung. Wouldn't that be a fairer comparison, since the multi-role player is no longer? (Or was Hornung only a part-time kicker... I can't recall, honestly)

Mark Mosey and Riggins would hold that record. Riggo had 24 TDs and Mark had 161 points in 83.

[cuervo72]

I do find it interesting that they don't mention his suspension at all on that page...though I suppose not necessarily surprising.

[cuervo72]

And regarding Hornung's numbers...they absolutely PALE in comparison to Jim Taylor's.

http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/me...?player_id=211