Airlines Suck

[Solecismic]

So, we're trying to arrange a flight for two people to travel from New Hampshire to Detroit at the end of the month. We need to stay for two or three days, mid-week.

The most convenient flight, on Northwest, costs $1,232, non-stop, for two. Others, with stops or on different days or at less convenient times, range from about $400 (two stops, very inconvenient timing) to probably $2,000.

I come up with the idea that maybe it's better to pick up in Cleveland. So, the exact same convenient flight on Northwest, which goes directly to Detroit before going to Chicago, then Cleveland, costs $680.

Can anyone explain this with a straight face? Is it any wonder these airlines are going out of business?

[GreenMonster]

All I can say is, wow does anyone look at these things. Prices change so often but there should be some kinds of controls..

[albionmoonlight]

I did transportation law a couple of years ago, and one of the things I learned is that the airlines' business models are extremely flawed from the ground up. There are a lot of bizzare costs in the system that don't seem to exist in any other industry that I have seen.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

So, we're trying to arrange a flight for two people to travel from New Hampshire to Detroit at the end of the month. We need to stay for two or three days, mid-week.

The most convenient flight, on Northwest, costs $1,232, non-stop, for two. Others, with stops or on different days or at less convenient times, range from about $400 (two stops, very inconvenient timing) to probably $2,000.

I come up with the idea that maybe it's better to pick up in Cleveland. So, the exact same convenient flight on Northwest, which goes directly to Detroit before going to Chicago, then Cleveland, costs $680.

Can anyone explain this with a straight face? Is it any wonder these airlines are going out of business?

Did you try Southwest out of Manchester? If you're flying more than 21 days out, I'm sure they're cheaper than that.

[Cringer]

I have a really good way of dealing with this. I don't fly. Have been on a plane only twice in my life, both were when I was under 18. A 1000 mile drive takes only about 16-18 hours, depending on how often you stop.

[ice4277]

You might also want to look at flying into Flint or Toledo. Rates there are generally cheaper than Detroit, and less of a drive than from Cleveland.

[cartman]

The timing of your flights puts you in the "business traveller" category, and these are the people that the airlines bend over the table. If you were to add a Saturday stayover, then the price would probably be 50% to 80% lower for the tickets.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by cartman

The timing of your flights puts you in the "business traveller" category, and these are the people that the airlines bend over the table. You were to add a Saturday stayover, then the price would probably be 50% to 80% lower for the tickets.

yep.
they have a really bizarre pricing scheme designed to maximize the amount they get for each ticket.

[gottimd]

Trains Blow.

[Chas in Cinti]

Jim... what's your timing... I've been known to secure some pretty good rates in my spare time... I'd be happy to give it a shot. Just PM me...

-Chas

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by gottimd

Trains Blow.

Have had one round trip..trip on a train, from Spokane, WA to Chicago and back. I loved it. But I was 17 and by myself so that may have had something to do with it.

[WSUCougar]

I believe his point was not so much that he needed a cheaper alternative, but rather the haphazard, WTF nature of the broad price range.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I come up with the idea that maybe it's better to pick up in Cleveland. So, the exact same convenient flight on Northwest, which goes directly to Detroit before going to Chicago, then Cleveland, costs $680.

Can't answer your question, but I don't know how it happens either. I had to fly from Phx. to Idaho. It was $100 more expensive to fly that route than to fly from Tucson to Idaho, with a 2 hour layover in Phx. Mind you this was the same flight from Phx to Idaho that was more expensive!! So we took a $20 shuttle from Sky Harbor (Phx airport) to Tucson airport and paid less, then on the return trip we got off at Phx. (I just wasted 4 hours of my time when we were leaving due to the 2 hour layover and the 2 hour drive to Tucson)

I agree airlines have a wacked pricing plan.

[gottimd]

Originally Posted by Cringer

Have had one round trip..trip on a train, from Spokane, WA to Chicago and back. I loved it. But I was 17 and by myself so that may have had something to do with it.

I was just remarking on the title of the thread. I like trains. Except when picking up or transferring in NYC Penn Station.

Fine, Boats Suck.

[Solecismic]

Actually, I am driving. I have more meetings and I refuse to fly. It's just too uncomfortable being trapped in a tiny space for so long. I always feel like I'm right on the edge of having one of those rage moments when I fly.

(and no, I've never been arrested or actually lost it in public, but I think it could happen).

My wife and son are flying, though. Because of his needs, we have to keep it to a couple of days (business-type-travel schedule). The Saturday stayover is just not an option. Cleveland is on the way.

I can get it down to $665 by going to Flint, Michigan rather than Cleveland. I've actually never been to Flint, but it's about as close to where we're building our house as Detroit is.

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by gottimd

I was just remarking on the title of the thread. I like trains. Except when picking up or transferring in NYC Penn Station.

Fine, Boats Suck.

I like boats, try space shuttles, I haven't been on one yet and can't give my point of view on it.

[gottimd]

Originally Posted by Cringer

I like boats, try space shuttles, I haven't been on one yet and can't give my point of view on it.

But I've been on a space shuttle, and I like them.

[Castlerock]

I needed to fly one-way a couple years ago. The one-way ticket was hundreds of dollars more than the round trip. I just bought a round trip ticket and never used the second leg.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Castlerock

I needed to fly one-way a couple years ago. The one-way ticket was hundreds of dollars more than the round trip. I just bought a round trip ticket and never used the second leg.

I've done that a couple of times. Just don't do it the other way around. If you don't use the first leg, they won't let you get on the second.

As to the people who don't fly- you guys drive cross country or something? That's a good 2 day drive. I mean, I hate, absolutely hate airports now (it's a shame- I used to love flying) but I'd still rather drive 45 minutes to the airport, wait an hour there, and fly for an hour or two to Houston or Chicago (my two usual trips) than drive the 10-12 hours it would take to drive to either of those places, saving not very much money as gas is very expensive and plane tickets aren't too bad as long as you get them in advance.

SI

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I've done that a couple of times. Just don't do it the other way around. If you don't use the first leg, they won't let you get on the second.

As to the people who don't fly- you guys drive cross country or something? That's a good 2 day drive. I mean, I hate, absolutely hate airports now (it's a shame- I used to love flying) but I'd still rather drive 45 minutes to the airport, wait an hour there, and fly for an hour or two to Houston or Chicago (my two usual trips) than drive the 10-12 hours it would take to drive to either of those places, saving not very much money as gas is very expensive and plane tickets aren't too bad as long as you get them in advance.

SI

Is anyone checking to make sure she's on the second and third legs of the trip there?

Yes, I will drive around 1,000 miles to avoid a flight, and I have driven cross-country a few times. Flights are far too claustrophobic for me.

[Castlerock]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Is anyone checking to make sure she's on the second and third legs of the trip there?

I would imagine that after Sept 11, they are making sure that everyone that is supposed to be on the plane, IS on the plane. But I don't know for sure.

If you miss a leg of the trip, the entire rest of the ticket becomes invalid.

[KWhit]

The airline pricing systems piss me off to no end. Why the hell should it matter whether I stay over a Saturday or not?

[Crapshoot]

I'm brown, and I usually have a beard, and can occasionally curse in Hindi, which probably sounds like Arabic to someone without a clue. Its a great way to insure that you get seats by yourself...

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by KWhit

The airline pricing systems piss me off to no end. Why the hell should it matter whether I stay over a Saturday or not?

I'd say blame that on the tax system. If businesses couldn't write travel expenses off as tax rebates than they would actually care what they had to pay and shop around instead of just eating the insane costs.

SI

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

I'm brown, and I usually have a beard, and can occasionally curse in Hindi, which probably sounds like Arabic to someone without a clue. Its a great way to insure that you get seats by yourself...

Or a gloved finger up the wazoo. :o

[Solecismic]

I wrote the kind people at Northwest. They did confirm that if she misses one leg, they won't honor the rest of the ticket. Jackasses.

I can get Flint for $850 without unusually convoluted stops in between. Southwest to Detroit may be our best overall option. Stupid, stupid system.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by KWhit

The airline pricing systems piss me off to no end. Why the hell should it matter whether I stay over a Saturday or not?

Because there's more demand / willingness to pay for flights without a Saturday stay.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I've done that a couple of times. Just don't do it the other way around. If you don't use the first leg, they won't let you get on the second.
SI

Wouldn't that mean the second leg should be the first and you would then book a third leg that becomes the second?

Agree that if you don't fly hub to hub, you are generally screwed w/pricing.

[rkmsuf]

where the f*ck are the flying cars?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by KWhit

Why the hell should it matter whether I stay over a Saturday or not?

http://budgettravel.about.com/od/air...urday_stay.htm

Why do we have the Saturday night stay requirement?

Airlines generally cater to two types of travelers: business people and leisure folks. The business people usually have to travel on short notice.

Airlines prefer reservations made weeks in advance. It allows them to manage their costs and seat inventories more effectively. They penalize people who fly at the last minute with fares that are often astronomical.

Since the airlines were deregulated about 20 years ago, Saturday night stay rules have been employed to enhance the separation between those business travelers and the leisure flyers. Many business travelers don't (or won't) fly on weekends, so they are forced in greater numbers to keep buying the expensive flights.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

Because there's more demand / willingness to pay for flights without a Saturday stay.

Oh, I know why they do it, I just hate it. I suppose I shouldn't have phrased it the way I did.

Here's the really shitty part. I'm a consultant who used to fly every week of the year except for holiday weeks. I flew on Monday morning and returned on Thursday night - no Sat stay. And I always flew to the same place.

So what I did for a while was this:

1. Buy a one-way ticket from home to my work destination for Monday.
2. Then bought a round-trip from my work location to home (Thursday departure, Monday return).
3. Repeat step 2 week after week until my project was over, then...
4. Buy a one way from my work destination back home

That way, most all of my weekly trips had a Saturday night stay and they cost significantly less. But then the fucking airlines decided to refuse to let you fly with them if they caught you doing this and even claim it is illegal (which is horseshit).

[Mr. Wednesday]

It's kinda silly, really... you'd think they would like it if you paid for a segment that you didn't fly, as they got their money and then didn't have the incremental costs (weight, food, that sort of thing) from actually flying you.

[Gallifrey]

I used to fly all the time for business and loved it. Now I hate the thought of even going through an airport.

I agree, it is nuts. Costly and a pain. I never shed a tear when I hear the stories of the airlines problems...not anymore.

[molson]

I actually like the airline pricing system - it's kind of like the business travelers who just expense their tickets are subsidizing the costs of people who know how to find a cheap fare. I just paid $210 RT to fly cross country from PDX to JFK (with no Saturday stay) - that's the same or less than someone would have paid for a similar flight 20 years ago (or more). If you have a little flexibiliy, and know how to look, airfares are one of the great bargains in this country.

[Izulde]

I like the speed of airplanes so I usually go that route. If I had my druthers though, I'd take the train a lot more often. It's just too bad we don't have trains as fast as what they have in Europe.

[ShaqFu]

Many airlines are doing away with Saturday night stays. They are sticking you for flying from a lesser airport and sticking you again for going to a hub (Detroit is a hub for NWA). Try Southwest.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

http://budgettravel.about.com/od/air...urday_stay.htm

Why do we have the Saturday night stay requirement?

Airlines generally cater to two types of travelers: business people and leisure folks. The business people usually have to travel on short notice.

Airlines prefer reservations made weeks in advance. It allows them to manage their costs and seat inventories more effectively. They penalize people who fly at the last minute with fares that are often astronomical.

Since the airlines were deregulated about 20 years ago, Saturday night stay rules have been employed to enhance the separation between those business travelers and the leisure flyers. Many business travelers don't (or won't) fly on weekends, so they are forced in greater numbers to keep buying the expensive flights.

The idea is more about maximizing the money you can get for your ticket. Instead of the traditional "price vs demand graph" to set the best price, they have figured out that consumer flyers will pay x and business flyers will pay y for the same flight (y being more, as most businesses aren't as frugal as customers). the Saturday thing is to differentiate between the two customers to charge the different tier of prices, since business travelers are less likely to travel across a Saturday.

Things like Senior Citizen's discounts in stores are among a similar principle - trying to squeeze a few more sales by charging less to a group of people generally looking to pay less.

[cartman]

I used to do the flight scheduling and pricing for Dallas Express Airlines. The flight scheduling was the hardest part, trying to get our arrivals to sync up with Southwest's departures (we were trying to be a feeder airline for Southwest at Love Field). I went the other direction on fares, trying to make them as simple as possible. We had 13 seat planes, and we knew what the breakeven point was for each flight. We had 3 prices for each flight. For example, from Dallas to Abilene, there was a $39 tier, a $59 tier, and a $79 tier. There were 5 seats available at the $39 price, 5 seats at the $59 price, and 3 at the $79 price. There was no 7-day/21-day fares. We simply started selling the seats at the $39 fare, and once those 5 were gone, we went to the $59 fare, and once those were gone the last three seats went at the $79 fare. If we sold all of the $39 seats, we broke even for that flight, everything else was gravy. Our big problem was that we usually didn't sell out of the $39 seats.

[PilotMan]

Did you know...


....that is costs approxamately $3400 in gas alone to travel from Cincinnati to Colorado Springs on my airplane? That does not include the depreciation/maintnence of the aircraft, or the cost of the crew or services? That is just one leg, on one plane, on one day. And that is one of the most fuel efficient planes in production today.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

http://budgettravel.about.com/od/air...urday_stay.htm

Why do we have the Saturday night stay requirement?

Airlines generally cater to two types of travelers: business people and leisure folks. The business people usually have to travel on short notice.

Airlines prefer reservations made weeks in advance. It allows them to manage their costs and seat inventories more effectively. They penalize people who fly at the last minute with fares that are often astronomical.

Since the airlines were deregulated about 20 years ago, Saturday night stay rules have been employed to enhance the separation between those business travelers and the leisure flyers. Many business travelers don't (or won't) fly on weekends, so they are forced in greater numbers to keep buying the expensive flights.

Since I started flying regularly 20 years ago, this has been the norm. The only thing that is different today is the Internet (to book flights in the same way agents used to) and the ability to grab last minute discounted fares. If you are 2-3 weeks out, you're a business traveler regardless if you are or not.

[Toddzilla]

I'm flying from Washington DC to Nashville - through Detroit - at the end of the month and only had to pay $109 round trip. Maybe I got lucky.

[Craptacular]

There have been a number of times when I've found it cheaper to fly from Madison to Milwaukee to wherever than it was just to fly from Milwaukee to wherever on the same exact flight. That makes a whole lotta sense.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Craptacular

There have been a number of times when I've found it cheaper to fly from Madison to Milwaukee to wherever than it was just to fly from Milwaukee to wherever on the same exact flight. That makes a whole lotta sense.

Probably depends on if you're changing planes or not.

I have to think that if it's the same plane, but it's just stopping in Milwaukee to pick up additional passengers, what's happening is that the airline is paying less for their origination gate in Madison, and just making use of the one they're already paying for in Milwaukee.

The extra butts in seats allow them to distribute cost more effectively, resulting in a cheaper ticket.

Whereas if you're taking off FROM Milwaukee, using a plane that hasn't already got anybody on it, you need more bodies to justify the flight. If you can't get 'em, higher costs for everybody.

Just my hunch.

[Craptacular]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Probably depends on if you're changing planes or not.

Good thought, but as far as I can recall, these flights were always on Midwest. They use smaller planes (20-30 psgr) to get people to Milwaukee (their main hub) from places like Madison and Green Bay, then use the normal 717s and MD-80s for most flights to larger destinations.