Moderation Announcement

[Ben E Lou]

As has been mentioned elsewhere, this board has grown quite a bit, more than I'd realized. All I could say for sure is that I've been spending more time here than I'd like. In evaluating where we are at FOFC, a comment that I made myself, actually, made me realize that some restructuring might be a good thing. The comment was about the board's growth (Referenced [HERE]). Since Blackie turned this place over to me (sometime in 2002, I think), FOFC has grown substantially in membership and, more importantly, day-to-day activity quite a bit. To give some exact growth numbers, in the first few weeks of switching to vbulletin (late Jan. '03), we would get over 1,000 posts per day maybe once a week, and not even every single week, and had some weekends with fewer 400 posts per day. Now, we break 1,000 posts per day the majority of weekdays, and, other than right at Thanksgiving and Christmas (ranged from 398 to 488), we haven't been below 600 any given day since last summer.

In running a ministry for a while (and I'd imagine that this would apply in the business world as well, and I'm thinking at this board), I've learned that remaining healthy while sustaining growth usually requires some changes to be made, and restructuring to happen. I'm thinking that it is time for that at FOFC. I've established a group of people who will serve in two capacities:

1. Moderators: They'll handle less-than-two-week suspensions, thread closings, editings, moving threads from Archives to GD, etc.
2. Wisdom: sort of a "Council of Elders" if you will, with whom I consult before issuing a perma-ban or a longer-than-two-week suspension.

This group will probably operate under the following parameters (there may be some tweaks, but the general consensus so far is that these are pretty close)

Any moderator can issue a suspension of up to two weeks, or close a thread, as long as at least one other moderator or RyanS/SkyDog signs off on it. The logic behind this is simple: two weeks ain't that long, and I don't want to hold up the process of swift suspensions when threads turn into train wrecks by requiring a bunch of people's consent. It will be very rare that only one or zero of this group have been around. I've selected this group for this role because they've shown themselves, in my opinion, to be level-headed in terms of criticism of modding decisions (not that they've always agreed, but their criticisms have been respectful and not just trollish and/or grandstanding), and because I'm fairly certain all of them will honor my desire that we only mod when we feel we must.

A majority of this group's sign-off is required for 2-week to 3-month suspensions, and these CAN be extensions.In other words, Mod1 and Mod2 are online and some guy goes on a tirade, or posts an NSFW pic, or whatever. Mod1, with Mod2's approval, gives him 10 days in the box. We then have a discussion on a private forum that I've created of "should he be given longer than this?" If I'm thinking longer, and a majority of them agree with the time frame I'm thinking, that's what he gets. I'll modify the timeframe I'm thinking to get the majority. An addendum to this is this: if 3/4 of this group thinks the guy should get longer, he gets it, even if I disagree.

2/3 of this group's sign-off is required for suspensions of 3 months to 6 months. Same process as above, with the same 3/4 threshold for the group to issue a more harsh punishment than the one I'm suggesting.

3/4 approval required for bannings, with right for the banned to "go before the council" if a reinstatement is asked for 1 year later. Same process, with unanimous (including RyanS) threshold for them banning someone apart from my desire.

The only exceptions I can think of off the top of my head to the banning rules would be the two auto-ban situations:

1. suspended/banned individuals who register new accounts
2. "Dudez, nebody got ne registration codez u can give me?"

So far, the following people have accepted invitations to be a part of this group, and have been granted mod rights (in addition to RyanS and myself):

Blade6119
JeeberD
Ksyrup
QuikSand
TroyF
wade moore
WSUCougar

I am waiting to hear back from two others.

--Ben

[Joe]

can previously banned people go before this council for reinstatement?

[Poli]

Rats. I was sick during Hollywood week. I could have been a contender.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by George W Bush

can previously banned people go before this council for reinstatement?

We'll chew on that one. I just realized that we didn't state a reinstatement parameter yet.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

We'll chew on that one. I just realized that we didn't state a reinstatement parameter yet.

Yes we did, you said they could after 1 year. I can quote it in the private forum if you want.

[Joe]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

Yes we did, you said they could after 1 year. I can quote it in the private forum if you want.

The way I read it, the 1 year is for people that you guys ban. I am asking about people who have been banned previous to the announcement of these new moderators.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

Yes we did, you said they could after 1 year. I can quote it in the private forum if you want.

Yeah, one year, but we haven't talked about the process/voting percentage/etc.

[JPhillips]

Skydog: Good work. I've stayed out of mod discussions before because it didn't seem to make any difference. This is a good way to balance your beliefs with the growth of the community. I hope it also eases some of the burden you have had to carry.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Yeah, one year, but we haven't talked about the process/voting percentage/etc.

We can take this private it you would like, i felt comfortable it was 3/4 to overturn(same as a ban)...i felt that was fair. If you disagree, post here or in private

[JonInMiddleGA]

"An elephant is a mouse designed by a committee"
NFM.

[Crapshoot]

This does seem to be a good idea - kudos for recognizing the issues (the double standard for JIMGA as opposed to Bigglesworth notwithstanding).

[Celeval]

I move to name this group the Dark Jedi Council. All in favor?

[Cuckoo]

Hmm... my initial reaction is that this may turn out to be worse than before. I'll wait to see, of course, and I didn't always agree with SD's decisions/actions, but this looks like a recipe for disaster.

I'll probably be in the minority with that opinion, though.

[gstelmack]

I think this is a great idea.

[JeeberD]

Quiet, Cuckoo. You just know that I'm gonna box you every time something goes wrong for my Titans...

[RendeR]

Awe man......I didn't get an invite???

[MizzouRah]

Don't box me for my hatred of the Astros.

Sounds like a good idea to me... but for Shorty I have to say, "fucking elitists".

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Quiet, Cuckoo. You just know that I'm gonna box you every time something goes wrong for my Titans...

Hahaha... I didn't even think of that. Now I hate the idea even more. Jeeber's such a dictator sometimes...

[Franklinnoble]

Hmm... Coincidence?????

[Huckleberry]

I assume my lack of an invite was an oversight. Not a good start for the committee.

More seriously, good luck to everyone. I'm a moderator on HornFans.com which has significantly more traffic than this forum. I do not envy you the headaches you will have.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by Cuckoo

Hmm... my initial reaction is that this may turn out to be worse than before. I'll wait to see, of course, and I didn't always agree with SD's decisions/actions, but this looks like a recipe for disaster.

I'll probably be in the minority with that opinion, though.

FWIW, I agree with you.

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

Don't box me for my hatred of the Astros.

I got your back.

Cuckoo and VPI, if you could, can you elaborate on your concerns re: "recipe for disaster?" I'd like to hear them (PM them if you'd rather).

[Coder]

This looks like a very good setup to me. Great decision.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

I got your back.

Cuckoo and VPI, if you could, can you elaborate on your concerns re: "recipe for disaster?" I'd like to hear them (PM them if you'd rather).

I knew I could count on you! Which Cardinals game did you want to go to?

[Coder]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Hmm... Coincidence?????

Maybe, but on the other hand, as much as I sometimes get frustrated with Ben's decisions as a moderator, this is the place I want to be at. I don't want to go to another board, I want to stay here.

Banning is harsh, and by having a group of people vote on a banning, an individual's personal feelings towards a person won't affect the decision as much.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

I knew I could count on you! Which Cardinals game did you want to go to?

Uh-oh for chicago/HOUSTON fans. WSU and i are both die hard st. louis fans...

UNRELATED: WHO HERE IS A CUBS/ASTROS FAN???

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

I got your back.

Gah! I forgot that I was going to have to work with a Cards fan...

At least Coug has one redeeming quality, though. He's a CMP fan.

[rkmsuf]

Can't call him Kickstand anymore.

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

UNRELATED: WHO HERE IS AN ASTROS FAN???

Bring it, Junior...

[saldana]

an excellent decision...i think it will work out extremely well....props SD

[NoMyths]

Sounds like a good decision, Ben.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Cuckoo

Hmm... my initial reaction is that this may turn out to be worse than before. I'll wait to see, of course, and I didn't always agree with SD's decisions/actions, but this looks like a recipe for disaster.

I'll probably be in the minority with that opinion, though.

i agree. i know where the line is when SD is in charge, but i don't know how itchy a trigger finger these other guys will have. at least the decisions will be via committee. i think SD has taken a lot of shit for too long so this should spread out some of the blame and criticism.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

I knew I could count on you! Which Cardinals game did you want to go to?

Am I chopped liver?

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

Am I chopped liver?

Damn, it's scary how many Cards fans I consider my friend...

[John Galt]

I think this is a good idea for everyone involved.

[Franklinnoble]

I just find it a little too convenient that two days after I start an alternative board, invite others to mod, and name JeeberD a mod, Ben makes the first major moderating change around here in YEARS...



...Including trying to pilfer Jeebs from me. Is there a poster's union where I can file a grievance? I say this is tampering, dammit!

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

i know where the line is when SD is in charge

Actually, one of the reasons I'm whole-hog for this is that I no longer know where SkyDog's line is. I used to know, and I've applauded most of his decisions in the past, but there have been recent incidents where I've agreed more with the mob here. And so I think this is a great step forward for the board, and kudos to SkyDog for being willing to share some of the responsibility of keeping this thing running like the well-oiled machine that it is.

[PackerFanatic]

I haven't been here quite as long as a lot of you guys, but I still very much enjoy it and I think this is a good direction for the forum to go. Good luck SD and everyone involved

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

...Including trying to pilfer Jeebs from me. Is there a poster's union where I can file a grievance? I say this is tampering, dammit!

Hey man, I'm still gonna mod over at your board. As long as you'll still have me, that is.

[digamma]

I think this is largely a good idea, and I hope the change is positive for the board. A sincere wish of good luck in implementing the new process.

[JPhillips]

Franklin: So? Isn't the goal for all of us to have a board that is more judicious in its policies? I have no idea if your board played a role in this, but either way you should be happy with the results.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

I just find it a little too convenient that two days after I start an alternative board, invite others to mod, and name JeeberD a mod, Ben makes the first major moderating change around here in YEARS...



...Including trying to pilfer Jeebs from me. Is there a poster's union where I can file a grievance? I say this is tampering, dammit!

I would be surprised if Skydog thought your board was going to impact the traffic at FOFC or the quality of this community.

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

Cuckoo and VPI, if you could, can you elaborate on your concerns re: "recipe for disaster?" I'd like to hear them (PM them if you'd rather).

Sure, and I don't mind posting them here. I'll go into more detail when I have a bit more time if someone else doesn't articulate similar feelings to mine before I get a chance.

But simply put, this seems to create a bureaucracy. While there will be more "hands on deck" to deal with issues as they arrive, the number of "administrators" may, in fact, reduce the effectiveness of the moderating here. And this is not even to mention how this changes the dynamics between these individuals and the rest of the community. I worry about disagreements amongst the group about particular forum members, disagreements that may hinge on political allegiances or different attitudes about what's acceptable and what's not. And I worry about that reaching a point where nothing gets done, and when it does, it is not swift or effective.

I can see what it's trying to accomplish, not the least of which is probably SkyDog not having to feel like he's constantly assaulted by those that disagree with him. But that won't change. It'll only shift that assault to a body rather than an individual, and it may shift the reasons for the assault.

Like I said, I know that many will disagree with me. And you honestly don't need to try to explain why you guys think it'll work. I think I have a pretty good handle on your intentions, and I think they're noble. I just think the potential for problems with more moderators far outweighs the potential for problems with one.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

I just find it a little too convenient that two days after I start an alternative board, invite others to mod, and name JeeberD a mod, Ben makes the first major moderating change around here in YEARS...



...Including trying to pilfer Jeebs from me. Is there a poster's union where I can file a grievance? I say this is tampering, dammit!

PM sent, but believe me, this had nothing to do with that. I've been feeling the tension of needing to spend more time here than I'd like, and when I stayed up past midnight a few nights ago (which I VERY rarely do) dealing with FOFC stuff, I realized that something needed to change. Then, I had the real epiphany that I linked to above regarding how much this place HAS grown since The Sideline and even since the UBB days, and was still being run basically the same way The Sideline was run. Restructuring is often needed for smart growth, and this was a long time overdue.


Besides, it's not like I was shaking in my boots about people deserting FOFC for another board. HA's alternate board didn't exactly fly, now did it?

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by Cuckoo

Valid points that I agree with.

I sent a PM, but I can share, as well....

I just have a philosophical belief that committees deter action. I think it's a good idea to have more mods, but I believe in giving those mods full authority to make decisive action without needing to sign off with someone else before doing anything. If you've [SD] made good choices in deciding who to give rights to, there shouldn't be any need to have them explain their actions in regards to every decision they make...by virtue of being a mod, they should already have full confidence in themselves (and from you) that they are trusted in regards to how they'll handle things.

Let them do what they think is right and every few months review the actions they have taken, at that point swap them out with someone else, if need be. It just been my experience that if you have to have a consultation with someone else (or a group) before something is done, then very little gets done.

[Coffee Warlord]

Jeeber's in power now? Good lord, this place has gone to hell.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Cuckoo

I can see what it's trying to accomplish, not the least of which is probably SkyDog not having to feel like he's constantly assaulted by those that disagree with him. But that won't change. It'll only shift that assault to a body rather than an individual, and it may shift the reasons for the assault.

To be clear, that's not a reason, either. I didn't mind the assauts one bit. Heck, I found most of 'em pretty humorous. It was the amount of time that modding decisions and both private and public post-decision discussions were taking that precipitated this change.

[JPhillips]

VP: But that can't work for bannings. It should be a slow and tedious process to eliminate someone from the community. I know I'd much rather have someone banned too late than too early. This is just a message board afterall. What can someone do here that really hurts me? Hell, I can put people on ignore if I don't want to deal with them.

I doubt my enjoyment of FOFC would be impacted much at all if Horns, Skippy, Capiscum and/or Jesse were still members. I have a thick enough skin that none of them can really bothre me.

[Joe]

can one of the new mods give JB his edit button back???

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

To be clear, that's not a reason, either. I didn't mind the assauts one bit. Heck, I found most of 'em pretty humorous. It was the amount of time that modding decisions and both private and public post-decision discussions were taking that precipitated this change.

Fair enough. But I think those two are related. How much time did you spend reading the threads that were nothing but bitch-fests about decisions you've made? I would be surprised if you didn't feel at least a little weight lifted that you won't have to deal with those as much. I've disagreed with some of your decisions, SD, and I may have even commented on them (short and sweet for me usually), but I would never envy having to come to the board to that so frequently.