NCAA basketball rules question

[Easy Mac]

Query:
Why do refs never call an intentional foul at the end of games. It's obvious that a losing team is intentionally committing a foul in order to stop the clock, which is the following violation (Rule 4, Section 26, article 6):

Art. 6. Intentional personal foul. An intentional foul shall be a personal
foul that, on the basis of an official’s observation of the act, is not a legitimate
attempt to directly play the ball or a player. Determination of
whether a personal foul is intentional shall not be based on the severity
of the act. Examples include, but are not limited to:
a. Fouling a player who is away from the ball and not directly
involved with the play.
b. Contact with a player making a throw-in.
c. Holding or pushing an opponent in order to stop the game clock.
d. Pushing a player from behind to prevent a score.
e. Causing excessive contact with an opponent while playing the ball.

And if I'm reading the intentional foul penalty rule correctly (Rule10, Section 23, art. 2b), then the penalty should be two shots and the ball.

b. Two free throws for:
1. A personal foul against a player who attempts a field goal and
whose try is unsuccessful.
2. An intentional personal or flagrant personal foul and the
ball awarded at a designated spot nearest to where the foul
occurred.
a. Any flagrant

Am I misreading the rules, or is the NCAA just ignoring this stuff so that the games will have a chance to end interestingly?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

Query:
Why do refs never call an intentional foul at the end of games. It's obvious that a losing team is intentionally committing a foul in order to stop the clock, which is the following violation (Rule 4, Section 26, article 6):

Same reason football never calls intentional grounding when a quarterback spikes the ball.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Same reason football never calls intentional grounding when a quarterback spikes the ball.

I guess it depends on how you interpret the NFL's rule:

2. Intentional grounding will be called when a passer, facing an imminent loss of yardage due to pressure from the defense, throws a forward pass without a realistic chance of completion.

Imminent loss of yardage becomes the key term (I'm checking the ncaa rules)

[Easy Mac]

dola, while checking for intentional grounding, I came across this little tidbit about crowd noise... it seems teams don't have to take it (Rule 3-3 on timeouts):

4. When the offensive team believes it is unable to communicate its signals
to teammates other than players positioned more than seven
yards from the middle lineman of the offensive formation because of
crowd noise. Following are administrative procedures for unfair
noise (Rule 3-4-2-b-3):
(a) When the signal caller believes he is unable to communicate signals
to teammates because of crowd noise, he may raise his
hands and look to the referee to request a legal delay.
(b) The referee may deny the request by pointing toward the defensive
team’s goal line or may charge himself with a timeout and
the offensive team may huddle.
(c) When the offensive team returns to the line of scrimmage, the
game clock will start on the snap. The referee shall declare the
ball ready for play by sounding his whistle with no hand signal.
The 25-second clock is not in operation (Rule 3-4-2-b-3).
(d) Should the signal caller then, or later in the game, request a second
legal delay by raising his hands and looking to the referee,
the referee will charge himself with a timeout again if, in his opinion,
the crowd noise makes it impossible to hear offensive signals.
(e) The referee then will request the defensive captain to ask the
crowd for quiet. This signals the public-address announcer to
request cooperation and courtesy to the offensive team. The
announcer will state that the defensive team will be charged a
timeout, or be penalized five yards if timeouts are exhausted, for
the next crowd-noise infraction.
(f) When the offensive team returns to the line of scrimmage, the
game clock will start on the snap. The referee shall declare the
ball ready for play by sounding his whistle with no hand signal.
The 25-second clock is not in operation (Rule 3-4-2-b-3).
(g) If the signal caller again during the game indicates by raising his
hands and looking to the referee to request a legal crowd-noise
delay and the referee agrees, a team timeout will be charged to
the defensive team. If the defensive team has exhausted its allotment
of timeouts, a five-yard penalty is assessed.
(h) After this timeout or the penalty, the defensive team will be
penalized five yards for each unsuccessful attempt to start a
play. VIOLATION—Rules 3-3-6 and 3-4-2-b [S3 or S21].
Summary of crowd-noise procedures:
Step No. 1—Referee’s timeout.
Step No. 2—Referee’s timeout plus captain’s notification and publicaddress
announcement.
Step No. 3—Timeout or five-yard penalty if timeouts are exhausted.
Step No. 4—Five-yard penalty for each additional infraction.

[Easy Mac]

all could find while looking for spiking in college rules:

VIII.With seconds remaining in a half and the ball declared ready for play,
Team Aquickly lines up and the ball is legally snapped to quarterback
A12, who throws the ball forward directly to the ground. Team A’s formation
was not legal at the snap. When the ball becomes dead, two seconds
show on the game clock. RULING: Illegal formation. Penalty—
Five yards from the previous spot. The clock starts on the next snap.

[finkenst]

typically, you don't push/hold the player... You always see them trying to slap the ball away to stop the clock.

-- formerly certified basketball referee.

[finkenst]

dola, you also get 2 free throws when it is a team foul above 10.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

Query:
Why do refs never call an intentional foul at the end of games. It's obvious that a losing team is intentionally committing a foul in order to stop the clock, which is the following violation (Rule 4, Section 26, article 6):


And if I'm reading the intentional foul penalty rule correctly (Rule10, Section 23, art. 2b), then the penalty should be two shots and the ball.


Am I misreading the rules, or is the NCAA just ignoring this stuff so that the games will have a chance to end interestingly?

I think the key is the player is still making a direct play on the ball. In most of the end of the game cases, the defensive players are taught to attempt to make the steal and then if you don't make the steal to foul all in the same motion . I have seen the intentional foul called when they actually hold a player or if the foul is committed against a player without the ball.

[finkenst]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

I think the key is the player is still making a direct play on the ball. In most of the end of the game cases, the defensive players are taught to attempt to make the steal and then if you don't make the steal to foul all in the same motion . I have seen the intentional foul called when they actually hold a player or if the foul is committed against a player without the ball.

cough.. post #6

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by finkenst

typically, you don't push/hold the player... You always see them trying to slap the ball away to stop the clock.

-- formerly certified basketball referee.

What about the times when the guy kind of reaches a hand out and slaps the top of the arm/back. That happens all the time at the end of games, and its obvious they're not going after the ball.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by finkenst

typically, you don't push/hold the player... You always see them trying to slap the ball away to stop the clock.

-- formerly certified basketball referee.

I disagree. Very often you see guys just go after the other player - not the ball.

-- formerly a guy who watched a bunch of basketball

[clintl]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Same reason football never calls intentional grounding when a quarterback spikes the ball.

Wrong. A rule change was made to specifically allow QBs to spike the ball to stop the clock quite a few years ago. Prior to that, you would see QBs throw an uncatchable ball over the WR's head to the sideline to stop the clock. Spiking would have been grounding prior to the rule change, but the incomplete sideline pass wouldn't because a receiver was in the area.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by KWhit

I disagree. Very often you see guys just go after the other player - not the ball.

-- formerly a guy who watched a bunch of basketball

Remember the rule

Art. 6. Intentional personal foul. An intentional foul shall be a personal
foul that, on the basis of an official’s observation of the act, is not a legitimate attempt to directly play the ball or a player

As long as you can convince the official that you are making an attempt, you won't see the intentional foul called.

[finkenst]

Originally Posted by KWhit

I disagree. Very often you see guys just go after the other player - not the ball.

-- formerly a guy who watched a bunch of basketball

and at those times you make the crossed arms...

and I have done that.