Miami and Baseball

[JS19]

I just don't understand how a city such as Miami cannot draw enough fans. I see how a team like the Royals may have trouble, and i am know geographical genius but i do believe Miami is a rather well populated city, not to mention the neigboring cities. Why is it that a successful franchise in a good city cant bring the fans in? I know everyone blames the stadium but I just don't see how that actually keep people from going to a game. Shea Stadium is no beauty but that doesn't keep me or 2.5 million other people from seeing them every yr. Never undestood this.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by JS19

I just don't understand how a city such as Miami cannot draw enough fans. I see how a team like the Royals may have trouble, and i am know geographical genius but i do believe Miami is a rather well populated city, not to mention the neigboring cities. Why is it that a successful franchise in a good city cant bring the fans in? I know everyone blames the stadium but I just don't see how that actually keep people from going to a game. Shea Stadium is no beauty but that doesn't keep me or 2.5 million other people from seeing them every yr. Never undestood this.

Short version.

1) Bitterness to the organization. The community has never forgiven the Marlins for breaking up the team after the first WS title. Never mind that it was three owners ago.

2) Don't let the population fool you. While it may be well populated, S Florida is not populated with Marlin baseball fans. You have Yankee fans, Mets fans, Cubs fans, Braves fans etc. Sports fans in general in South Florida suck.

[sovereignstar]

Originally Posted by JS19

I know everyone blames the stadium but I just don't see how that actually keep people from going to a game.

I consider myself a pretty big Twins fan and you'd have to drag me (kicking and screaming) to the Metrodome.

[miami_fan]

The stadium was actually a top selling point at the start. I distinctly remember hearing the talk that Joe Robbie Stadium was actually a "baseball stadium" by design. It

[Karlifornia]

You wanna sit outside in Florida in July and watch a ball game? Didn't think so

[JS19]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Short version.

1) Bitterness to the organization. The community has never forgiven the Marlins for breaking up the team after the first WS title. Never mind that it was three owners ago.

2) Don't let the population fool you. While it may be well populated, S Florida is not populated with Marlin baseball fans. You have Yankee fans, Mets fans, Cubs fans, Braves fans etc. Sports fans in general in South Florida suck.

Good points. Going by this logic one would think that maybe 10 yrs or so down the line things will be just fine (if they are still in Florida that is). Probably a whole new fan base and the bitterness in the past.

[st.cronin]

Miami's population is also, I think, more transient than most cities. But I think in terms of attendance they actually do ok - they just haven't been able to negotiate a good tv deal.

[larrymcg421]

I think alot of it has to do with competing interests as well. There's so much more to do in Miami than in some other baseball cities. People only have so much money and free time.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by JS19

Good points. Going by this logic one would think that maybe 10 yrs or so down the line things will be just fine (if they are still in Florida that is). Probably a whole new fan base and the bitterness in the past.

No it will not IMO. The team just had another fire sale (though I would not blame them for this one) so the bitterness remains and is probably increasing. Second, if the fans of other teams have not changed their loyalty by now, what makes you think they are going to change in 10 yrs? Finally, as has been mentioned before, 1pm games in Miami are a bitch in July. along with 2-3 hours rain delays once or twice a week. As far as getting a new stadium, I think the stadium money in Florida in general and South Florida specifically has dried up.

[nilodor]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

I consider myself a pretty big Twins fan and you'd have to drag me (kicking and screaming) to the Metrodome.

I actually enjoyed seeing games at the metrodome. Parking was easy, good prices, nothing to bad about it.

[vex]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

The stadium was actually a top selling point at the start. I distinctly remember hearing the talk that Joe Robbie Stadium was actually a "baseball stadium" by design. It

It?

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by vex

It?

Oops

I actually meant to add that the stadium was supposed to be the centerpiece in a grand plan. It was to have a new hotel, high end shopping, things for the kids to enjoy etc. None of that has come to fruition.

[SFL Cat]

I think miami-fan has hit the nail on the head with several points.

This area's first love is the Miami Dolphins. The Marlins, Heat, and Panthers are more or less afterthoughts. Secondly Miami-area fans are some of the worst bandwagon fans I've ever seen. If one of the pro teams is doing well, they'll come out in droves to support it, but if the team is doing poorly....well, people will find a lot of other ways to occupy their time in sunny south Florida.

I think there is a lot of simmering resentment toward the Marlins. A lot of fans wrote off the team after it dismantled its 1997 WS team. I think 2004's WS run brought a lot of fans back to the team, but then there was the ugly "we want a new baseball only stadium or we're moving" fight right after the world series. Most of the team's support comes from northern Dade, Broward, and South Palm Beach counties, so the proposal to build the new stadium in downtown Miami turned a lot of people off and never had a lot of support. Also, current team president David Samson has rubbed a lot of people down here the wrong way. While I don't feel strongly about the guy one way or the other, I do think his PR skills are certainly lacking.

Also, as miami fan has said, midday games in July can be a real........experience, especially if you're not in a shady part of the stadium.

In the end, I think most fans are resigned to the fact that the team won't be here much longer, so they simply aren't going to invest a lot of time or money in the team.

[ISiddiqui]

Hell, July games in Turner Field in Atlanta can be Hellish in the sun... so I can understand why during the hot months Miami fans would want to stay away. I realize it can be sunny down there... but you need a freaking dome!

[bosshogg23]

No reason Miami cant support a team.

No reason the ChiSox dont have huge crowds(normally) and the NY Mets dont have huge crowds, plenty of fans to go around in both cases. No one wants to be the 2nd tier fan though.

[bosshogg23]

Dola

The whole state of Florida is regarded as a poor(pro) fan base. Not sure if that has to do with the problem that most people are from NE states or not. It would tend to make sense though. The colleges in FL are well funded/supported and there are very few top notch athletic colleges in the NE part of the country where many FL ppl come from. Thus = Less alligenance

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Hell, July games in Turner Field in Atlanta can be Hellish in the sun... so I can understand why during the hot months Miami fans would want to stay away. I realize it can be sunny down there... but you need a freaking dome!

To be fair, July games in Kaufman in KC are hellish, too, with 95 degree heat and 90% humidity, just like a lot of other places in the summer (Houston, Florida, Atlanta, etc). Hell, Chicago has its fair share of those days. But for those teams and fans (not including the Cubs), 6 or 7 out of every 7 home games during those months is going to be at night. It's not as if they schedule a lot of day games in July anywhere except on Sundays and maybe some Saturdays.

SI

[JS19]

The point about a new fanbase in 10 yrs or so was aimed at the little guys who get to grow up with a team already in Florida, unlike the people who were already fans of other teams since there was no team there. I also really have no idea about Florida and was curious as to why such a major city has such trouble supporting a baseball team. Probably has a lot to do with me being from NY and ignorant I suppose but I would say you summed it up pretty well.

[st.cronin]

Do they play a lot of day games in Miami or something?

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

This area's first love is the Miami Dolphins.

My dislike of the Dolphins and their fans escalated 10,000% when they failed to sell out a home playoff game a few years back. If you can't get excited about that, you don't deserve an NFL team.

[bryce]

I'm not so sure I buy a lot of the arguments being made. I live in Dallas, and like Miami (per above posts), football king down here, and everything else runs a distant second. Both cities love winners (think the Mavs were drawing any crowds at all in the 90's?..) and have mostly bandwagoning fans (and quite a few transplants, too, especially from NY.). The Texas summer heat is more brutal than even the Miami heat. Dallas has just as many other entertainment options as Miami, save for the beaches.

Yet, the Rangers still draw a decent crowd every year, 2.5 mil to 3 mil. What's the difference, then? The stadium? Nah, the old park here still got the crowds out, and that was a glorified minor league stadium at best. Apathy for ownership? Nah, Rangers fans are sick of Hicks' cost-cutting measures (but at least getting rid of John Hart as GM in lieu of Jon Daniels has helped, I'll admit). It certainly can't be performance, as the Rangers have never won a playoff series.

I wonder if the difference, then, is something that Rangers fans are often criticized for (at least from BoSox fans, Yankees fans, Cubs fans, etc) - a trip to the ballpark is a family event, and a relatively small % of the crowd really even cares about the game, outcome, etc. It's not a hardcore baseball fanbase. Going to Rangers games, to most people, is about a family gathering, people watching, etc etc, not about a BASEBALL game. This may be how a continually bad team gets continually good crowds. I wonder if Miami families just choose different outings. Or if perhaps there are socio-economic differences therein, though I'd venture a guess that both cities are actually pretty similar in that regard, too.

There's a graduate degree study or thesis in there somewhere, I'd bet...

[Young Drachma]

I think the Miami problem is a demographic one.

I think it's the same reason basketball isn't appealing to fans in Portland anymore, because the city should have major league soccer and that's it. I dunno what the deal with Seattle is, these days.

I don't think all the transience of the old days of sports is some sort of thing that people should ignore. Teams move. It's always happened. It's in this new era -- really with the Browns is where it started -- that cities have started to act as if having a team is their birthright.

Leagues see moving as a sign of instability and so...they've tried to make it rare or to squlech it all together. It shouldn't be that way.

Teams should move freely and communities that want teams, should find ways to work to keep them around, just like any other business.

I mean, if Green Bay -- and sure, NFL revenue sharing has something to do with it, but still -- can STILL be a major league city in the most popular sport in America right now, then surely you can't tell me the issue is about the ability to survive. It's about something else and teams working with communities need to either figure that out or bail.

Especially now that communities are less and less likely to allow themselves to be completely fleeced for new ballparks.

[Ryan S]

The Florida Marlins have had a series of the worst owners in professional sports.

Florida's current owner is the man who killed the Expos. Why should any Miami fan invest money in a team that is so vocal about discussing its impending move?

The idea that Florida can not support Major League Baseball is insane. Tampa has never seen a team worthy of the big leagues and the Marlins are an embarrassment when they should be one of the best stories in baseball.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Ryan S

The Florida Marlins have had a series of the worst owners in professional sports.

Florida's current owner is the man who killed the Expos. Why should any Miami fan invest money in a team that is so vocal about discussing its impending move?

The idea that Florida can not support Major League Baseball is insane. Tampa has never seen a team worthy of the big leagues and the Marlins are an embarrassment when they should be one of the best stories in baseball.

All very true.

The whole Marlins debacle makes me hate Bud Selig even more. He's done so much harm to the game that it's criminal. And no expanded playoffs, wild cards or any faux home run chases will change that. He's a crook, a swindler and the worst commissioner in history.

[Wolfpack]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

All very true.

The whole Marlins debacle makes me hate Bud Selig even more. He's done so much harm to the game that it's criminal. And no expanded playoffs, wild cards or any faux home run chases will change that. He's a crook, a swindler and the worst commissioner in history.

No. Tell us how you really feel about Selig.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Wolfpack

No. Tell us how you really feel about Selig.

hahaha...

ok.

If there was a car that was about to hit him and I had the magical powers to run fast enough to save him...I'd turn my head.

ok, maybe not.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by bryce

I'm not so sure I buy a lot of the arguments being made. I live in Dallas, and like Miami (per above posts), football king down here, and everything else runs a distant second. Both cities love winners (think the Mavs were drawing any crowds at all in the 90's?..) and have mostly bandwagoning fans (and quite a few transplants, too, especially from NY.). The Texas summer heat is more brutal than even the Miami heat. Dallas has just as many other entertainment options as Miami, save for the beaches.

Yet, the Rangers still draw a decent crowd every year, 2.5 mil to 3 mil. What's the difference, then? The stadium? Nah, the old park here still got the crowds out, and that was a glorified minor league stadium at best. Apathy for ownership? Nah, Rangers fans are sick of Hicks' cost-cutting measures (but at least getting rid of John Hart as GM in lieu of Jon Daniels has helped, I'll admit). It certainly can't be performance, as the Rangers have never won a playoff series.

I wonder if the difference, then, is something that Rangers fans are often criticized for (at least from BoSox fans, Yankees fans, Cubs fans, etc) - a trip to the ballpark is a family event, and a relatively small % of the crowd really even cares about the game, outcome, etc. It's not a hardcore baseball fanbase. Going to Rangers games, to most people, is about a family gathering, people watching, etc etc, not about a BASEBALL game. This may be how a continually bad team gets continually good crowds. I wonder if Miami families just choose different outings. Or if perhaps there are socio-economic differences therein, though I'd venture a guess that both cities are actually pretty similar in that regard, too.

There's a graduate degree study or thesis in there somewhere, I'd bet...

There is not a apathy towards ownership. There is an absolute HATRED to the Marlins ownership suit. It started with Huizenga but I don't think it really matters who actually owns the team. The general public looks at the Marlins business brass , no matter who they are, as the Grinch who stole the WS joy in 1997. I know Huizenga was the most hated man in South Florida sports for a long while. Loria may be that guy today.

I think if Miam has a ballpark a la Ameriquest Field in Arlington, you would see about 2.5-3.0 million people show up as well. Ownership has been trying to convince the city and state of that all along. The question is who pays for it. The last outdoor stadium that was built in Miami was built by Joe Robbie with private funds. The public wants to know why the Marlins can't build their own stadium like Joe Robbie did.

On a side note, people go to the Rangers to people watch? If I were going someplace to people watch in South Florida, a baseball game would not be my first choice either!

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Teams should move freely and communities that want teams, should find ways to work to keep them around, just like any other business.

I mean, if Green Bay -- and sure, NFL revenue sharing has something to do with it, but still -- can STILL be a major league city in the most popular sport in America right now, then surely you can't tell me the issue is about the ability to survive. It's about something else and teams working with communities need to either figure that out or bail.

I don't quite understand your argument. You say that teams should be able to move freely, but then you mention the one team that will never move. The Packers are owned by the people of Green Bay. That team is never going anywhere.

[Joe]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

I consider myself a pretty big Twins fan and you'd have to drag me (kicking and screaming) to the Metrodome.

WTF

[RPI-Fan]

Originally Posted by George W Bush

WTF

I can understand his sentiment. I'm as big of an Islanders fan as there is, and after going to 4 games this year I've decided that if I were GIVEN tickets to the game I wouldn't go.

I like nothing more than to kick back, and watch the Islanders on TV.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Ezarik

I don't quite understand your argument. You say that teams should be able to move freely, but then you mention the one team that will never move. The Packers are owned by the people of Green Bay. That team is never going anywhere.

I'm saying that communities that want their teams, keep them.

The Packers are wedded to that community because someone a long time ago decided they were worth keeping around.

I'm not saying that solution would work elsewhere, just that it shows that it's not some impossible thing or that, in the case where team/city relations falter, the teams should just go or the cities can basically say "ciao".

[sovereignstar]

Originally Posted by George W Bush

WTF

Dude, it's a dome. Baseball in a fucking dome.

[sovereignstar]

Dola

I went to a game at Safeco during their peak in 2001 (think that was their peak) and I about gave Raul Mondesi a facial out in left field. That is a stadium.

[Booj]

I have to admit, while watching the Florida/Washington game on Sunday and seeing TONS of empty seats and an announced attendance of just over 10,000, I smiled.

As an Expos fan, Loria is getting what he deserves and if he moves the Marlins, that makes it two teams... is that a record?