Rant - Work Related

Balldog · 06-06-2006, 10:56 AM

So two weeks ago I was given notice that between July 22 and August 1 will be my last day at my current employer. I wasn't too heart broken because I've been wanting to leave for sometime but have been unable to because I would have to pay back close to $11,000 in tuition reimbursement that I received over the last 12 months. So rather than be a bum and do what all my friends suggest, by just sitting around and collect unemployment and go to school full-time I decided to start job hunting.

Today I am to receive an official for an excellent job about an hour a way, the salary will be almost double my current salary. Just to make sure I sent a few management people an email asking if I had to repay the tuition money since they gave me that letter. The reply was yes, I have to wait for them to release me or I have to pay it back.

IMO, this is bullshit because I wouldn't be leaving if they weren't letting me go and I've also applied for a couple transfers and haven't heard back from the key ones I would've liked.

The new company would like me to start June 19 but there is no way I can make that work. I suppose I could suck it up and repay the $11,000 but damn that is a lot of money no matter how much more money I am making.

Fuckers!

wade moore · 06-06-2006, 11:06 AM

No offense, but I see no problem with what your current employer is doing.

MalcPow · 06-06-2006, 11:18 AM

That sucks, just a crappy situation. I would try to get my hands on some sort of employee policy handbook and comb through the section about this sort of thing to see if you have any options.

gstelmack · 06-06-2006, 11:20 AM

If your new employer is willing to pay double, are they also willing to pay back the tuition reimbursement? Might even work something out where they pay it off and you only make 150% for the first year or something.

Warhammer · 06-06-2006, 11:20 AM

Ask your potential new employer if they would foot the note. If they want you that bad, it is really a small price to pay for the right employee.

JonInMiddleGA · 06-06-2006, 11:23 AM

At the risk of sounding somewhat devious ... I'd check the employee handbook (or whatever spells out the terms & conditions of the tuition payback program) to see exactly what triggers your obligation to pay it back to them. I mean, it wouldn't be unheard of that a company screwed themselves over by phrasing like "if employee leaves voluntarily" rather than "if the employee quits or is terminated for cause", etc.

You might get lucky & discover that your way out is to simply get yourself fired.

Samdari · 06-06-2006, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You might get lucky & discover that your way out is to simply get yourself fired.

And if you indeed discover that is the case, please check back here for ideas.

Arctus · 06-06-2006, 11:55 AM

I'd check your employee handbook, but I'd be willing to bet that you owe $11K if you leave on your own accord.

I'm assuming that your future employer is at least somewhat aware of your situation (current employer letting you go). Why don't you explain your tuition reimbursement situation with them and explain that you are not available until your current employer lets you go?

Balldog · 06-06-2006, 12:51 PM

Here is the exact wording from the policy, "colleagues will repay the full amount of any education expense reimbursement received by the colleague within the twelve-month period preceding the date of voluntary termination of the colleague’s employment with the company."

I guess I don't see how my situation would qualify as "voluntary termination," but I am working with the recruiter to see what kind of deal can be worked out. I might end up working at the new place for a week and taking vacation at the old place, then the new place is shutdown for a week and I would go back to the old place. Taking a week of vacation at the new place and working at the old place, then that would get me within a week of July 22.

Then I would just have to pay back some vacation to the old employer which is far less than $11,000 worth.

I think I am coming down with the flu.

Arctus · 06-06-2006, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balldog

Here is the exact wording from the policy, "colleagues will repay the full amount of any education expense reimbursement received by the colleague within the twelve-month period preceding the date of voluntary termination of the colleague’s employment with the company."

I guess I don't see how my situation would qualify as "voluntary termination,".

If you leave the company prior to being formally let go, you will be voluntarily terminating yourself, regardless of you company's stated intention of letting you go at a later date.

JonInMiddleGA · 06-06-2006, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balldog

Here is the exact wording from the policy, "colleagues will repay the full amount of any education expense reimbursement received by the colleague within the twelve-month period preceding the date of voluntary termination of the colleague’s employment with the company."

Umm ... I'd check the handbook for a further definition of "voluntary termination" before developing too much of a plan, but I'm thinking that this might turn out to be a case where taking a crap in the bosses chair (while he's sitting in it) might end up saving you $11k.

chinaski · 06-06-2006, 01:51 PM

Seems pretty standard. When my old employer put me thru a bunch of MCSE classes, I had to sign a contract just like this. I know many companies work this way. I'll bet if they fire you, you would still have to pay it. Generally it only works with amicable termination.

wade moore · 06-06-2006, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arctus

If you leave the company prior to being formally let go, you will be voluntarily terminating yourself, regardless of you company's stated intention of letting you go at a later date.

Exactly. I think this is the key point that's not clicking for Balldog.

MalcPow · 06-06-2006, 03:08 PM

The sad thing about this is (if it's anything like a lot of jobs that I'm sure most of us have had), you could have simply left and your tuition fees would have been lost in the shuffle of what seems like a lot of turnover at your office. But by double-checking, bringing this situation to someone's attention, you screw yourself over. I do sort of side with JIMGA though, when in doubt, crap in your boss's chair...

Balldog · 06-06-2006, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wade moore

Exactly. I think this is the key point that's not clicking for Balldog.

Its clicking, it just doesn't seem right to me.

Desnudo · 06-06-2006, 06:23 PM

Why not ask the new employer if you can delay your start date a month or two?

Joe · 06-06-2006, 06:30 PM

nothing wrong with this situation. pay back what you owe.

wade moore · 06-06-2006, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balldog

Its clicking, it just doesn't seem right to me.

What's not "right" about it? They spent a LOT of money on you. $11,000 is a lot on an employee that hasn't been there that long. It's costing them enough to let you go when they are, to do it a month or two early is an even bigger expense. They're a business, they have to worry about the bottom dollar.

Balldog · 06-06-2006, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wade moore

What's not "right" about it? They spent a LOT of money on you. $11,000 is a lot on an employee that hasn't been there that long. It's costing them enough to let you go when they are, to do it a month or two early is an even bigger expense. They're a business, they have to worry about the bottom dollar.

They are the ones eliminating my job, causing me to look for a new job, if I wasn't losing my job I wouldn't be leaving.

Balldog · 06-06-2006, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Why not ask the new employer if you can delay your start date a month or two?

We are negotiating it, with the vacation I have available at both companies it could work out that I'd be employed by both but taking vacation at one while working at the other. Should be an interesting 6 weeks.

wade moore · 06-06-2006, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balldog

They are the ones eliminating my job, causing me to look for a new job, if I wasn't losing my job I wouldn't be leaving.

They are not eliminating your job until July 22nd. You want to leave June 19th. The reality of the world is you can do a lot with your books with that $11k in that time.

I'm not saying it's a NICE thing to do. I'm saying many business owners willd o the same because it is the SMART thing to do.

I'm getting a little bit of my, "we're too much of an entitlement society," feeling in my gut with this issue.

Maybe I'm being unfair, I probably am, but that's what I'm feeling...

Balldog · 06-06-2006, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wade moore

They are not eliminating your job until July 22nd. You want to leave June 19th. The reality of the world is you can do a lot with your books with that $11k in that time.

I'm not saying it's a NICE thing to do. I'm saying many business owners willd o the same because it is the SMART thing to do.

I'm getting a little bit of my, "we're too much of an entitlement society," feeling in my gut with this issue.

Maybe I'm being unfair, I probably am, but that's what I'm feeling...

Yea, I know where they and you are coming from, it just pisses me off. I guess I should just sit around and collect unemployment like all my friends are telling me to do. haha

wade moore · 06-06-2006, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balldog

Yea, I know where they and you are coming from, it just pisses me off. I guess I should just sit around and collect unemployment like all my friends are telling me to do. haha

In all seriousness, Unemployment is not such a wonderful thing. First off, it really doesn't last all that long. Second of all, depending on your situation (living with your parents or something would make it easier) it's really not enough to live on for very long.

stevew · 06-06-2006, 07:02 PM

It might be worth it to you to pay a few hundred dollars to speak to a lawyer about the matter. Specifically to get some more advice about the enforceability of the payback of the 11 grand. Essentially they have given you a notice of termination, it seems like there should be a win-win situation for all parties to come to some sort of agreement whereas to where they save money on unemployment, etc. And you get a new job where you can make a better life for yourself.

Alternatively, if you can double your salary, as long as you are making over a grand more per month after any extra expenses, you still win even if you have to pay it back over the first year.

BrianD · 06-06-2006, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wade moore

In all seriousness, Unemployment is not such a wonderful thing. First off, it really doesn't last all that long. Second of all, depending on your situation (living with your parents or something would make it easier) it's really not enough to live on for very long.

Depending on what you had previously, unemployment can downright suck. Last time I had to deal with unemployment I received about 25% of what I was getting at the job.

BrianD · 06-06-2006, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

It might be worth it to you to pay a few hundred dollars to speak to a lawyer about the matter. Specifically to get some more advice about the enforceability of the payback of the 11 grand. Essentially they have given you a notice of termination, it seems like there should be a win-win situation for all parties to come to some sort of agreement whereas to where they save money on unemployment, etc. And you get a new job where you can make a better life for yourself.

Alternatively, if you can double your salary, as long as you are making over a grand more per month after any extra expenses, you still win even if you have to pay it back over the first year.

I would imagine that a lawyer wouldn't do much for him. Companies have been dealing with tuition reimbursement and payback of reimbursement for a long time. Any company worth anything will have sent their reimbursement policy though the company law firm to make sure it is enforceable. You could probably fight it, but you won't come out ahead.

Bonegavel · 06-06-2006, 07:43 PM

Similar thing happend to me only I owed about $2500 out of about $4-5k they paid for my schooling (each quarter I owed them less and less). It sucked to write a check for that amount but I knew that their paying for my school meant I had certain rules.

I am now at my new job 4 years and making double what I made then and while the 2500 stung a bit, the new job has more than paid for itself.

Don't screw with new employment. Besides, don't you have a way hot girlfriend? She'll make it all better.

Balldog · 06-06-2006, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wade moore

In all seriousness, Unemployment is not such a wonderful thing. First off, it really doesn't last all that long. Second of all, depending on your situation (living with your parents or something would make it easier) it's really not enough to live on for very long.

I really have zero intentions of going that route.

I guess we will see what the new employer is willing to do and if my old employer will possibly accept some sort of monthly payments.

cthomer5000 · 06-06-2006, 08:31 PM

I think the first route would be to see if your new employer is willing to wait. We're only talking about a matter of weeks. If they really care about bringing in the right person, they might be willing to wait.

Balldog · 06-09-2006, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

I think the first route would be to see if your new employer is willing to wait. We're only talking about a matter of weeks. If they really care about bringing in the right person, they might be willing to wait.

This job is overseeing a product launch, so the extra week is very important. They offered an additional $5,000 in annual salary to move my start date to June 19th, instead of June 26th. I have accepted the job. Now I just need to figure out how to come up with the money to pay my current employer back.

06-06-2006, 11:20 AM	#4
gstelmack Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Cary, NC	If your new employer is willing to pay double, are they also willing to pay back the tuition reimbursement? Might even work something out where they pay it off and you only make 150% for the first year or something. __________________ -- Greg -- Author of various FOF utilities

06-06-2006, 11:23 AM	#6
JonInMiddleGA Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA	At the risk of sounding somewhat devious ... I'd check the employee handbook (or whatever spells out the terms & conditions of the tuition payback program) to see exactly what triggers your obligation to pay it back to them. I mean, it wouldn't be unheard of that a company screwed themselves over by phrasing like "if employee leaves voluntarily" rather than "if the employee quits or is terminated for cause", etc. You might get lucky & discover that your way out is to simply get yourself fired. __________________ "I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis

06-06-2006, 07:02 PM	#24
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	It might be worth it to you to pay a few hundred dollars to speak to a lawyer about the matter. Specifically to get some more advice about the enforceability of the payback of the 11 grand. Essentially they have given you a notice of termination, it seems like there should be a win-win situation for all parties to come to some sort of agreement whereas to where they save money on unemployment, etc. And you get a new job where you can make a better life for yourself. Alternatively, if you can double your salary, as long as you are making over a grand more per month after any extra expenses, you still win even if you have to pay it back over the first year. Last edited by stevew : 06-06-2006 at 07:03 PM.

06-06-2006, 11:18 AM	#3
MalcPow College Benchwarmer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: San Diego	That sucks, just a crappy situation. I would try to get my hands on some sort of employee policy handbook and comb through the section about this sort of thing to see if you have any options.

06-06-2006, 11:20 AM	#5
Warhammer Pro Starter Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Dayton, OH	Ask your potential new employer if they would foot the note. If they want you that bad, it is really a small price to pay for the right employee.

06-06-2006, 11:55 AM	#8
Arctus H.S. Freshman Team Join Date: May 2005 Location: Richmond, VA	I'd check your employee handbook, but I'd be willing to bet that you owe $11K if you leave on your own accord. I'm assuming that your future employer is at least somewhat aware of your situation (current employer letting you go). Why don't you explain your tuition reimbursement situation with them and explain that you are not available until your current employer lets you go?

06-06-2006, 12:51 PM	#9
Balldog Pro Rookie Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Macomb, MI	Here is the exact wording from the policy, "colleagues will repay the full amount of any education expense reimbursement received by the colleague within the twelve-month period preceding the date of voluntary termination of the colleague’s employment with the company." I guess I don't see how my situation would qualify as "voluntary termination," but I am working with the recruiter to see what kind of deal can be worked out. I might end up working at the new place for a week and taking vacation at the old place, then the new place is shutdown for a week and I would go back to the old place. Taking a week of vacation at the new place and working at the old place, then that would get me within a week of July 22. Then I would just have to pay back some vacation to the old employer which is far less than $11,000 worth. I think I am coming down with the flu.

06-06-2006, 01:51 PM	#12
chinaski College Prospect Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon	Seems pretty standard. When my old employer put me thru a bunch of MCSE classes, I had to sign a contract just like this. I know many companies work this way. I'll bet if they fire you, you would still have to pay it. Generally it only works with amicable termination.

06-06-2006, 03:08 PM	#14
MalcPow College Benchwarmer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: San Diego	The sad thing about this is (if it's anything like a lot of jobs that I'm sure most of us have had), you could have simply left and your tuition fees would have been lost in the shuffle of what seems like a lot of turnover at your office. But by double-checking, bringing this situation to someone's attention, you screw yourself over. I do sort of side with JIMGA though, when in doubt, crap in your boss's chair...

06-06-2006, 06:23 PM	#16
Desnudo Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Here and There	Why not ask the new employer if you can delay your start date a month or two?

06-06-2006, 06:30 PM	#17
Joe Pro Starter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Minneapolis	nothing wrong with this situation. pay back what you owe.

06-06-2006, 07:43 PM	#27
Bonegavel Awaiting Further Instructions... Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Macungie, PA	Similar thing happend to me only I owed about $2500 out of about $4-5k they paid for my schooling (each quarter I owed them less and less). It sucked to write a check for that amount but I knew that their paying for my school meant I had certain rules. I am now at my new job 4 years and making double what I made then and while the 2500 stung a bit, the new job has more than paid for itself. Don't screw with new employment. Besides, don't you have a way hot girlfriend? She'll make it all better.

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