Best AI in Sports Game

[kserra]

What sports sim do you think has the best AI--in terms of roster management, moves, trades, signings, etc...


I'm getting ready to boot EHM hockey back up--

I might be mistaken, as I haven't played the game in a few months, but I seem to recall that the game's AI was very solid--it was moderately difficult to trade with, signed the right players, seemed to draft pretty well, and roster moves seemed pretty good...

I've always enjoyed the CM/FM series, the FOF series could be fun if you placed some restrictions on yourself, the OOTP series was always a bit frustrating-especially with waivers and roster management...

Anyways, I was curious what you guys thought.

Kevin

[jbmagic]

Most people think its Fm 2006 which has the best AI

[bhlloy]

EHM is a great game that I played for months on end, but the salary cap moves AI needed some tweaking IIRC... stuff like teams waiving a superstar instead of 2 or 3 scrubs making more money than they should have which would have had the same cap effect, and not trying to trade the superstar for draft picks instead. Also saw some interesting trades for mid-round draft picks where two weeks later the guy was on waivers. Not a knock on Riz, but I think EHM (and 99% of other sims) has a long way to go to match FM in terms of AI. Very few headscratching moves in FM.

[yabanci]

I'd say FOF has to be among the very worst when it comes to AI roster management, moves, trades, signings, etc. It does a lot of other things superbly, which makes it a great game, but the roster management AI is downright horrible. Thankfully multiplayer solves this problem.

Of the games I've played, FM is the best in this area.

[Schmidty]

I wonder how much developers feel insulted when told that their game is great for multi-player, but no so great for solo play.

[Antmeister]

It's gotta be FM. They are on another level altogether when it comes to their AI. And that is not just in regards to roster management and trading. It is also well done in creating believable players.

[kserra]

I'm waiting for a sports developer to put the AI decision making process into a format that can be edited by outsiders...

A game like EU2, where interested gamers can tweak, and in some cases, out-and-out change the way the AI plays has allowed that game to live on and still be a great play. There are some really good enhancements to that game's AI, and while the work has been done by outsiders, the developers get a big thumbs up for making that available to us.

Could you imagine what a community such as this could come up with for games like FOF, OOTP, EHM, etc???

Kevin

[Buccaneer]

FBCB because it doesn't try to do everything and what it does do, it does very well. Games like OOTP and FOF only work well in MP, and from hearsay, I would suspect FM has a good AI for SP because of its maturity.

[CraigSca]

It's funny - I like the AI behind the FM series, but I really, really can't get the past that the universe is constantly made up of the same re-genned players. It seems that if the AI is so great, that they should have figured out a way to make new players without having to retread old ones.

[RPI-Fan]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

It's funny - I like the AI behind the FM series, but I really, really can't get the past that the universe is constantly made up of the same re-genned players. It seems that if the AI is so great, that they should have figured out a way to make new players without having to retread old ones.

I don't know the specifics, but I think for the most part that system is abandonded at this point.

[LionsFan10]

Originally Posted by kserra

I'm waiting for a sports developer to put the AI decision making process into a format that can be edited by outsiders...

A game like EU2, where interested gamers can tweak, and in some cases, out-and-out change the way the AI plays has allowed that game to live on and still be a great play. There are some really good enhancements to that game's AI, and while the work has been done by outsiders, the developers get a big thumbs up for making that available to us.

Could you imagine what a community such as this could come up with for games like FOF, OOTP, EHM, etc???

Kevin

I haven't played EU II in so long, but with the right mods I could definitely get back into it, what mods do you use?

[kserra]

Originally Posted by LionsFan10

I haven't played EU II in so long, but with the right mods I could definitely get back into it, what mods do you use?

I enjoy the vanilla game quite a bit...but the past few times I've been using the AGCEEP mod and it is really excellent. Some new events, the AI plays smarter, and the game feels new...not bad for a game that's been around so long.

Apparently, a lot of the regulars over at the Paradox forums use "MyMap" in addition to the AGCEEP and they are really pleased.

I'll probably have to fire up another game here pretty soon.

You can find more about that mod here: http://www.europa-universalis.com/fo...splay.php?f=82

Kevin

[cougarfreak]

Earl Weaver Baseball

[Groundhog]

Maximum Football.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by cougarfreak

Earl Weaver Baseball

It didn't have any front office AI, but for purely in-game... you're probably right.

[sovereignstar]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

It didn't have any front office AI, but for purely in-game... you're probably right.

Over Diamond Mind?

[cougarfreak]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

It didn't have any front office AI, but for purely in-game... you're probably right.

Yes, that's what I meant.

[cougarfreak]

It's just freaking amazing how good Earl was in game, with graphics. The current text sims don't even get the "little things" right that Earl had.

[Philliesfan980]

NBA Live 99, AI was amazing in that game.

[Bee]

Originally Posted by Antmeister

It's gotta be FM. They are on another level altogether when it comes to their AI. And that is not just in regards to roster management and trading. It is also well done in creating believable players.

Yep, that's my opinion as well. FM is in a class by itself IMO. Not only does it create believable players, but believable coaches and owners, which is something no other game comes close to.

[Marc Vaughan]

I'm waiting for a sports developer to put the AI decision making process into a format that can be edited by outsiders...

I've looked at putting scripting into the AI in our games a few times but resisted it so far simply because scripted AI is inherantly slightly slower than 'native' AI and our games aren't speed-freaks as it is

[cougarfreak]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

I've looked at putting scripting into the AI in our games a few times but resisted it so far simply because scripted AI is inherantly slightly slower than 'native' AI and our games aren't speed-freaks as it is

How 'bout making some AI for OOTP?

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Bee

Yep, that's my opinion as well. FM is in a class by itself IMO. Not only does it create believable players, but believable coaches and owners, which is something no other game comes close to.

Posts like this make me hate the fact that I have yet to be able to get myself into a soccer game.

[kserra]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Posts like this make me hate the fact that I have yet to be able to get myself into a soccer game.

Oh man...you've gotta take the plunge. I'm an old-school sports guy--football, basketball, baseball--didn't know a thing about big time soccer, but this game sucks you in--it doesn't matter if it's soccer or any other sport--the depth, strategy, and gaming enviroment are second to none...

I cut my teeth on CM 01/02 and played that game at an unhealthy rate...I haven't been the same since...

Kevin

[Bee]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Posts like this make me hate the fact that I have yet to be able to get myself into a soccer game.

It took me a few attempts to really get into it. I think the biggest thing that got me over the hump was reading one of Quiksand's dyansties a few years ago while playing my own career. He moved through the season faster than I did, so I could see when certain events would happen (like transfer windows, etc) and so I was better prepared. Also, when his team would struggle I could see what types of moves he made to try to get the team back on track (switching tactics, player movement, etc). That dynasty was very educational because he talked not just about what happened but also his decision making process. Without that as a guide, I'd have probably been lost and given up.

Edit: The other thing I did was I took Marc's guide and made a chart of the important skills for each position and placed that beside my computer. I used that chart religiously the first couple seasons when evaluating players.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by cougarfreak

How 'bout making some AI for OOTP?

I know very little about baseball beyond that of a very casual fan who's watched a few games without knowing (or worrying about) too much of the intracasies of the sports - this makes me probably the worst person in the world to try and implement AI for a baseball sim imho.

Markus on the other hand is a huge baseball fan and has probably forgotten far more than I know about baseball - he's beavering away working on improving all aspects of OOTP, give him time I'm sure he'll rectify the problems reported since the games release ... better still help him do so by reporting them in as constructive a manner as possible.

[kserra]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

I've looked at putting scripting into the AI in our games a few times but resisted it so far simply because scripted AI is inherantly slightly slower than 'native' AI and our games aren't speed-freaks as it is

Hey Marc, how far of a difference do some teams rate individual players in the game? For example, if I've got a striker with an ACTUAL finishing rating of 16, what ranges will all teams see him? IE, one team sees him as a 12, another as a 19?

Also, do you get more accurate ratings on a player the more you scout him?

[cougarfreak]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

I know very little about baseball beyond that of a very casual fan who's watched a few games without knowing (or worrying about) too much of the intracasies of the sports - this makes me probably the worst person in the world to try and implement AI for a baseball sim imho.

Markus on the other hand is a huge baseball fan and has probably forgotten far more than I know about baseball - he's beavering away working on improving all aspects of OOTP, give him time I'm sure he'll rectify the problems reported since the games release ... better still help him do so by reporting them in as constructive a manner as possible.

Yeah........I just hope it's sooner rather than later.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

Over Diamond Mind?

Don't know. Never played it.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by kserra

Hey Marc, how far of a difference do some teams rate individual players in the game? For example, if I've got a striker with an ACTUAL finishing rating of 16, what ranges will all teams see him? IE, one team sees him as a 12, another as a 19?

Also, do you get more accurate ratings on a player the more you scout him?

Each person in the game views every other person in the game slightly differently and through their eyes depending on their personalities and preferences.

This is much more 'visible' in FM2007 due to a couple of the features in that game - but they aren't announced yet and I can't say what they are (I'm a tease I know ).

This is one of the reasons why sometimes managers will go in for a player who is out of form at a club - simply put they see (or think they do) potential in that player which others might not appreciate. IRL this sort of thing is fairly common with fierce speculation in England in recent years over whether Heskey (and now Crouch) should be part of the England international setup - some managers like the options given by that sort of players, others see their technical deficiencies and would prefer a more cultured approach .... myself I think Crouch has copied my dance moves to a T so he's cool with me*

*On a slightly more serious note while Crouch imho doesn't have quite the technique or movement to really be of sufficient quality for the England team imho his enthusiasm and joy at playing ARE enough imho to place him in the squad. He's a player who always seems to try his hardest and is genuinely enjoying being part of things - something which rubs off on other people in the squad and helps inspire the fans (or in light of Englands performances so far, helps keeps the fans off their backs ) ...

[Marc Vaughan]

Also, do you get more accurate ratings on a player the more you scout him?

Humans always see a 'real' value for a player (I've hummmed and haaed a few times about giving humans a 'view' depending on their stats and coaches etc. - but haven't done so yet) ... however the granularity for such viewed values is much higher than in the game engine. Most stats in the game engine are between -120 and +120 in size but displayed as 1-20, as such there is a reasonable amount of variance between two players with the same stats BUT most importantly its the interaction of the various stats which are visible and those which are hidden which can make or break a player.

For instance you might have a striker with fantastic stats but a hidden personality flaw which affects his confidence - thus in a match if he stats hot he'll be brilliant, however if he fails in his first couple of runs/shots then he might lose confidence and drift out of the match altogether ... spotting this sort of thing about a player will ensure that you get the best out of your team, especially when giving team-talks/making subs.