Dan Marino

[Grammaticus]

On Fox and Friends this morning, Marino confirmed he was in a group of people that are working a deal to buy the Pittsburg Penguins.

Oh, he also threw some good passes across time square. Dan is still the man!

[rkmsuf]

I loathe Dan Marino.

[rowech]

He and Manning...forever linked without a title.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by rowech

He and Manning...forever linked without a title.

Did Peyton retire?

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Chubby

Did Peyton retire?

might as well and save himself the aggravation

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

might as well and save himself the aggravation

gg

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by rowech

He and Manning...forever linked without a title.

Must really aggravate you that so many consider him the best and still without a title.

[muns]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

On Fox and Friends this morning, Marino confirmed he was in a group of people that are working a deal to buy the Pittsburg Penguins.

Oh, he also threw some good passes across time square. Dan is still the man!

Mark Cuban is in that group too i believe

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

Must really amuse you that so many consider him the best and still without a title.

I think that's closer to the sentiment.

[Grammaticus]

probably

[Franklinnoble]

Got any more of that gum, Ace?

[rowech]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

Must really aggravate you that so many consider him the best and still without a title.

I can't help it if people don't recognize him for what he was. A QB in a pass happy offense who didn't want to sacrifice his numbers to develop a running game which would have given a more balanced and efficient offense. Hmmm....sounds like Manning and Edge. What's that? Edge got sick of it and left? Oh...

I'd take Montana, Elway, and Brady all before I would even think of Manning and Marino.

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, James never ran for over 1500 yards... OH WAIT!

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by rowech

I can't help it if people don't recognize him for what he was. A QB in a pass happy offense who didn't want to sacrifice his numbers to develop a running game which would have given a more balanced and efficient offense. Hmmm....sounds like Manning and Edge. What's that? Edge got sick of it and left? Oh...

I'd take Montana, Elway, and Brady all before I would even think of Manning and Marino.

Huh?

Is Edgerrin James suppose to be running for 2500 yards per year before he's in a 'balanced' offense? Because he already averages (injured seasons aside) about 1500 yards 10 touches on 330 or so carries a year.

Using that example really shows how little you know.

[st.cronin]

oops, reading comprehension error

more coffee please

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by rowech

I can't help it if people don't recognize him for what he was. A QB in a pass happy offense who didn't want to sacrifice his numbers to develop a running game which would have given a more balanced and efficient offense. Hmmm....sounds like Manning and Edge. What's that? Edge got sick of it and left? Oh...

I'd take Montana, Elway, and Brady all before I would even think of Manning and Marino.

That is all absolute crap. You obviously know nothing about Marino.

Marino did want to sacrifice his numbers. He wanted to win a title more than anything else. He was more than happy to hand it off to a running back. During the time the Dolphins were 8-8 every year, Marino asked Shula to be traded to a team with a better running game, but Shula talked him out of it.

There were times when the Dolphins started to get a ground game going with people like Mark Higgs and Bernie Parmalee. But it never lasted. These guys got injured or couldn't do it in the playoffs and Marino was forced back into all pass mode. When Jimmy Johnson became coach, The Dolphins tried a running game with Jabbar, but it never worked and Jimmy himself would revert back to having Marino throw 50 times a game because nothing else was working.

Why do people have this hatred of Marino? It's pretty bizaare. He was a standup guy who was heavily involved in the community and an idol to many younger fans. But people feel the need to treat him like he's Jeff George or something.

[ISiddiqui]

It's because we all hate Isotoner gloves

[larrymcg421]

Let me also ask you:

If Elway had retired two years earlier, would that change how good of a player he was? If the Broncos never drafted Terrell Davis, is Elway any better or any worse as a QB?

[larrymcg421]

BTW, for the non-Marino haters, enjoy this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvzE__vAClo

[Deattribution]

Marino also played on some really good teams though, I'm not saying he 'didn't want to sacrifice his numbers' or anything stupid like that, but he simply just never could win a big game.

He had a career 86.4 QB rating in the regular season, and in the playoffs he was 77.1, that's a significant drop off. He also threw an interception in 13 of all 18 of his playoff games, 2 or more in 10 of the games... those 10 games they were 1 in 9. For whatever reason, he's certainly one of the greatest QB's of all-time, but that only counts for the regular season.

[hoopsguy]

Marino had just a terrible collection of RBs, and a pretty weak collection of defenses, for the teams he dragged into the playoffs. I think it is wildly inaccurate to point to him as some kind of "me first" numbers guy on the Dolphin teams.

If it is all about the rings, would you take Bradshaw over Marino? If so, think about the question again and come back when you have the right anwer.

[rkmsuf]

I've argued this successfully so many times I'll just summarize by saying Marino is a donkey.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

Marino also played on some really good teams though, I'm not saying he 'didn't want to sacrifice his numbers' or anything stupid like that, but he simply just never could win a big game.

He had a career 86.4 QB rating in the regular season, and in the playoffs he was 77.1, that's a significant drop off. He also threw an interception in 13 of all 18 of his playoff games, 2 or more in 10 of the games... those 10 games they were 1 in 9. For whatever reason, he's certainly one of the greatest QB's of all-time, but that only counts for the regular season.

What really good teams, though? Only a couple times did they even have good defenses, in 1990 and 1992, and both times the defenses failed in the playoffs. In 90, 92, and 94, three of his best chances, the defense and running game let him down each time. 94 was especially bad, as we blew a 21-6 lead because we couldn't run down the clock and our tired defense allowed the Chargers to come back. Even then, Marino rallied the Dolphins to set up a FG for the win and Stoyo missed it.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

I've argued this successfully so many times I'll just summarize by saying Marino is a donkey.

Fuck you.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

Huh?

Is Edgerrin James suppose to be running for 2500 yards per year before he's in a 'balanced' offense? Because he already averages (injured seasons aside) about 1500 yards 10 touches on 330 or so carries a year.

Using that example really shows how little you know.

It doesn't count when he runs up 200 yards on crappy defensive teams after they're up 28-0. Every time Edge gets somewhat stopped, Manning takes it upon himself to abandon the running game and try and win the game himself. He does this WAY too early. He'll do it in the second quarter and never come back to Edge. If you want to abandon the run late in the 3rd or in the 4th, fine but he's way too quick to give up the run game. That's how he gets in trouble.

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

If it is all about the rings, would you take Bradshaw over Marino? If so, think about the question again and come back when you have the right anwer.

I would.

Pittsburg had some good defense, but honestly nobody gives Bradshaw any credit despite the fact out of all 4 of their titles, they were only #1 in scoring defense on 1 of those 4 the teams.

Marino played on the #1 scoring defense 3 times in his career, 83, 84 and 98 (they were also #4 allowing only 15.5 in 90 which is pretty nice) and never could do anything with it.

Someone mentioned Elway, well Elway stomped the #1 defense in 98 with Marino on it (who was terrible coughing up 2 picks and managing a 65.5 rating).

Again, a great QB but he just couldn't win... Some have it, some don't.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Fuck you.

Manlove

[rowech]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Let me also ask you:

If Elway had retired two years earlier, would that change how good of a player he was? If the Broncos never drafted Terrell Davis, is Elway any better or any worse as a QB?

Good question and I'm not sure of the answer to be honest. I do believe a super bowl win adds legacy to a QB. Take a look at Ken Anderson's numbers somtimes. Very comparable to most "great" QBs yet he's not even in the Hall nor mentione as a great one. He wins that super bowl in '82 his legacy is forever changed.

I would say Elway's legacy is definitely helped more by his two super bowls. He'd still be a great one and I'd still probably put him #2 behind Montana for QBs I've actually seen play.

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by rowech

It doesn't count when he runs up 200 yards on crappy defensive teams after they're up 28-0. Every time Edge gets somewhat stopped, Manning takes it upon himself to abandon the running game and try and win the game himself. He does this WAY too early. He'll do it in the second quarter and never come back to Edge. If you want to abandon the run late in the 3rd or in the 4th, fine but he's way too quick to give up the run game. That's how he gets in trouble.

Crazy talk again, Manning's game has always been reliant on the fact that defenses know they can also hand it off (and DID hand it off) to Edge.

Playoffs? sure, but it has nothing to do with him wanting to pad his stats. Regular season? I'm not sure what 'trouble' you're talking about but okay...

[hoopsguy]

Deattribution, can you list all of the Hall of Famers that Marino played with over his career?

[rowech]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

That is all absolute crap. You obviously know nothing about Marino.

Marino did want to sacrifice his numbers. He wanted to win a title more than anything else. He was more than happy to hand it off to a running back. During the time the Dolphins were 8-8 every year, Marino asked Shula to be traded to a team with a better running game, but Shula talked him out of it.

There were times when the Dolphins started to get a ground game going with people like Mark Higgs and Bernie Parmalee. But it never lasted. These guys got injured or couldn't do it in the playoffs and Marino was forced back into all pass mode. When Jimmy Johnson became coach, The Dolphins tried a running game with Jabbar, but it never worked and Jimmy himself would revert back to having Marino throw 50 times a game because nothing else was working.

Why do people have this hatred of Marino? It's pretty bizaare. He was a standup guy who was heavily involved in the community and an idol to many younger fans. But people feel the need to treat him like he's Jeff George or something.

He's definitely not Jeff George. He's probably in the top 10-15 QBs all time but I would not put him at the top.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

I would.

Pittsburg had some good defense, but honestly nobody gives Bradshaw any credit despite the fact out of all 4 of their titles, they were only #1 in scoring defense on 1 of those 4 the teams.

Marino played on the #1 scoring defense 3 times in his career, 83, 84 and 98 (they were also #4 allowing only 15.5 in 90 which is pretty nice) and never could do anything with it.

Someone mentioned Elway, well Elway stomped the #1 defense in 98 with Marino on it (who was terrible coughing up 2 picks and managing a 65.5 rating).

Again, a great QB but he just couldn't win... Some have it, some don't.

Elway didn't stop the #1 defense. Terrel Davis did, and that was because a key player of that #1 defense (Tim Bowens) was injured in the playoffs. We had stopped Davis just a few weeks earlier. But I think it's funny about your double standard. Marino is at fault in 1998 because he had a terrible game, but the #1 defense giving up 38 points is no problem. In 1990, that #4 defense gave up 44 pt.s in the playoff loss to the Bills. In 1984 that #1 defense gave up 38 pts. to the Niners. It's pretty stupid to say Marino was only a regular season qB and point out how good his defenses were when those same defenses were even worse in the playoffs than Marino.

[Desnudo]

I'll forever be grateful for the Shannon Sharpe-Marino comedy team on NFL Today. Watching Marino akwardly try and crack jokes that no but him laughed at was a real treat.

No need to reiterate how much of a donkey Marino was. That's shown by his choice of commercial endorsements.

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Deattribution, can you list all of the Hall of Famers that Marino played with over his career?

If he had won them a few superbowls without playing like Jeff George in the playoffs I'm sure the list would be a little bigger

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I'll forever be grateful for the Shannon Sharpe-Marino comedy team on NFL Today. Watching Marino akwardly try and crack jokes that no but him laughed at was a real treat.

No need to reiterate how much of a donkey Marino was. That's shown by his choice of commercial endorsements.

you complete me

[rowech]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

Crazy talk again, Manning's game has always been reliant on the fact that defenses know they can also hand it off (and DID hand it off) to Edge.

Playoffs? sure, but it has nothing to do with him wanting to pad his stats. Regular season? I'm not sure what 'trouble' you're talking about but okay...

The playoffs are what I'm talking about. How can I argue with Manning's regular season stats/record? When the playoffs come though...he chokes...plain and simple. There's no way they should have lost before the super bowl last year.

I'll also throw out the fact that UT won the title the year AFTER Manning left and then I'll also throw out Marino's Pitt teams always coming up short as well.

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Elway didn't stop the #1 defense. Terrel Davis did, and that was because a key player of that #1 defense (Tim Bowens) was injured in the playoffs. We had stopped Davis just a few weeks earlier. But I think it's funny about your double standard. Marino is at fault in 1998 because he had a terrible game, but the #1 defense giving up 38 points is no problem. In 1990, that #4 defense gave up 44 pt.s in the playoff loss to the Bills. In 1984 that #1 defense gave up 38 pts. to the Niners. It's pretty stupid to say Marino was only a regular season qB and point out how good his defenses were when those same defenses were even worse in the playoffs than Marino.

The fact that he couldn't keep his defenses off the field for longer then 2 minutes in the playoffs has nothing to do with his defenses mysteriously coming up short, right?

[rowech]

Guys, I'm not saying Manning and Marino suck nor am I saying they're not in the top 10-15 QBs all-time. I am saying there are a lot of other guys I'd take ahead of them.

[larrymcg421]

It is ridiculous to make a judgement about an individual player on how a team performed. Are you saying Manning held UT back? So when they lost 62-37 to the Gators, it was Manning's fault they gave up 62 or that he couldn't score 63?

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by rowech

The playoffs are what I'm talking about. How can I argue with Manning's regular season stats/record? When the playoffs come though...he chokes...plain and simple. There's no way they should have lost before the super bowl last year.

I'll also throw out the fact that UT won the title the year AFTER Manning left and then I'll also throw out Marino's Pitt teams always coming up short as well.

Yeah but the argument that he does it for his numbers holds no weight in the playoffs, If anything he does it because he thinks he can win the game - and he hasn't been able to. Not to mention, much like Marino he has that 'can't win' stigma over him which is a death grip on his team.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

The fact that he couldn't keep his defenses off the field for longer then 2 minutes in the playoffs has nothing to do with his defenses mysteriously coming up short, right?

He's supposed to keep them off, how? By handing it to Sammie Smith, Mark Higgs, Abdul-Jabbar or Bernie Parmalee? Well they tried that against San Diego and Parmalee not only could not run the clock down but was stopped for a safety, which allowed the Chargers to win 22-21.

But it wasn't time of possession in those games. That's a pretty hollow argument because the defenses were getting beat silly from the start.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

you complete me

Show me the money

[rkmsuf]

1998 was the greatest. Dolphins gave up the least points in the NFL and got pasted 38-3 in Denver after beating Denver in the regular season.

[Deattribution]

Meh, this could go on forever.

He played with the winningest coach ever... nada, a guy who had up til then taken 2 teams to 5 superbowls in 15 years. In 13 succeeding years with Marino... 1 superbowl, which they lost.... again, nada. empty handed.

He played with 55 players named to the pro-bowl over his career, 64 including the 9 times he made it, that averages out to 4 per year, both New England Patriot teams had a combined 5 in their first two SB wins.

He joined a team that had just played in the SB the year before...

Again, he was a playoff 77.1 passer. Multiple interception games (10 out of 18 games he had 2 or more, which they were 1 in 9 in), which puts those good defenses in shitty spots.

Playing 17 years in a league, you're definitely going to play on a few shit teams, these are generally the only teams mentioned when it comes to why Marino didn't win arguments. Again, he played on some really good defenses and in his record breaking year, they amassed nearly 2000 yards team rushing.

Facts are facts, I'll leave this to whoever's judgement.

I won't dispute how amazingly good he was in the regular season, but beyond that he wasn't very good.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Wow, you people take this shit seriously.

Obviously, the greatest quarterback in NFL history is Doug Nussmeier. Do not argue with me on this.

[larrymcg421]

And in that record breaking year, he took them to the Superbowl. And that supposedly great defense and running game were non-existent when they got there (Not to mention how bad the defense was in the AFC title game, giving up 28 pts. to the Steelers).

Againm, you create a double standard for Marino. You say MArino was a great regular season player, but bad in the playoffs. PArt of your evidence is how good his defenses or running game might have been in certain years. But thenm you want to ignore how bad those defenses and running games were in the postseason. Much, much worse than Marino was in fact. A 77.1 QB rating is not good, but it's not this disaster that you're making it out to be. However, the defenses constantly giving up 38 and 44 pts. in the playoffs is a disaster.

[hoopsguy]

Deattribution, you looked up the number of Pro Bowlers who played with Marino, but dodged the question about HoF guys. I would think the 2nd one would be a lot easier.

Or did you avoid answering that one because it didn't fit your argument?

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Deattribution, you looked up the number of Pro Bowlers who played with Marino, but dodged the question about HoF guys. I would think the 2nd one would be a lot easier.

Or did you avoid answering that one because it didn't fit your argument?

I didn't avoid it, I answered it - mostly in jest but a touch of seriousness.

Most of all my facts are all from one single article/site, so it's not like I'm furiously looking up information. If it was readily availiable, I'd of said it... go look it up yourself if you want but..

HoF players are great to have on your team, but there are too many players who never make it to the HoF but were great to make it apart of an argument. Not to mention the fact that some players get in for the wrong reasons (Namath for instance). It only takes 1 really good year to help your team win a SB, not a career.

Terrel Davis undoubtly helped Elway, but he's not in the hall, does that mean he wasn't really important to Elway?

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

I didn't avoid it, I answered it - mostly in jest but a touch of seriousness.

Most of all my facts are all from one single article/site, so it's not like I'm furiously looking up information. If it was readily availiable, I'd of said it... go look it up yourself if you want but..

HoF players are great to have on your team, but there are too many players who never make it to the HoF but were great to make it apart of an argument. Not to mention the fact that some players get in for the wrong reasons (Namath for instance). It only takes 1 really good year to help your team win a SB, not a career.

Terrel Davis undoubtly helped Elway, but he's not in the hall, does that mean he wasn't really important to Elway?

Is Terrell even eligible yet? If so, it hasn't been that many years. There are debates on whether or not he should be in. But your argument is flawed. Davis is a special case. Without injuries he would be an automatic HOFer. If you can give an example of a Dolphins player that had a similar circumstance, please share it with us.

[rkmsuf]

Miami only has 9 HOFers total including Donkino.

Not sure what the point is. He played with DWIGHT STEPHENSON though.