1st hand of WSOP - KK

[hoopsguy]

Greg Nunley raises to $225 and Mark Lawlor re-raises to $600. Nunley re-raises to $1,500 and Lawlor makes it $3,000 to go. Nunley goes all-in and Lawlor makes the call. Nunley shows KK and Lawlor shows AA. The board comes J10273, and Nunley is our first elimination of the day.

Nunley = donkey? Or did he play it exactly right and get unlucky?

I've been having some discussion about this with another player and figured I would open it up to the experts here to chime in.

[cartman]

If he didn't put all his chips in pre-flop, he almost certainly would have gotten them all in with that low, rainbow flop.

[QuikSand]

I'd like to say that I would sniff this out... with not one but two reraises preflop. Why else make the third bet preflop but not go all-in?

but it's hard to say... if you generally give your opponent(s) credit for the one hand out there that beatss you, won won't ever win a thing.

[cartman]

This hand is eerily similar to the one that busted me out on the bubble in the WCOOP event last year. The only difference was the betting. I raised 3X BB with KK, he raised another 3X. The flop was similar to this one, so I bet the pot. He raised all in. I thought about it, and based on the way the guy had been playing fast and loose, I thought he was trying to muscle the pot, counting on people to play conservative since we were so close to the money. I call. He flips over the pocket rockets.

[GoSeahawks]

Easy fold. The guy has one of two hands after his third bet, and you're holding one them.

[primelord]

Originally Posted by GoSeahawks

Easy fold. The guy has one of two hands after his third bet, and you're holding one them.

This anything but an easy fold. You can maybe find a fold here, but it is absolutely not an easy fold.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by GoSeahawks

Easy fold. The guy has one of two hands after his third bet, and you're holding one them.

I might agree with you that this is an easy fold if it's just a random hand. Teh fact that this is the first hand of the main event makes it a far more wide-open proposition, in my view. It's probably just as likely, coming into the event, that some guy made a bet/promise to go all in on the first hand no matter what as it is that you two were dealt KK vs. AA on this very hand.

I don't think there's anything easy about folding here. If you're interested in pot odds, you're getting nearly 2-to-1 on your money with the second best hand possible. Sure, you suspect aces at this point... but there are probably many fairly reasonable players who might play QQ or JJ this way, even AK... and then there remains the lingering possibility that this is a first-hand stunt.

Can't you at least weasel some 25% chance or so that he holds something other than AA here?

[primelord]

This problem also illustrates some of the issues with reviewing hands after the fact with the results known. It's very easy to see how the betting went down and see what each person was holding and say "Well of course he had AA. Look how the betting went down." It is a completely different thing to be sitting in the WSOP with KK in your first hand and no sense of how your opponent who keeps raising you plays.

Edit: It's of course too late now, but it would have been interesting if this hand had been presented in a hypothetical situation without villan's cards being known. I would have been interested to see what everyone thought hero should do.

[Lathum]

While it's not an easy fold I think once he bumped it to 3K I would know something was up.

[timmynausea]

I think this would be an incredibly difficult fold. I do think the fact that it's the first hand of the tournament would make it a little harder to guage. On one hand, it could be something strange like Quik said, but on the other, did you really get all the way here to get all your chips in pre-flop on the first hand with anything but Aces? That's quite the gamble. With the excitement of being there and the tournament just getting under way, it'd be hard to keep that perspective.

Wouldn't that just make you sick, though? To fold kings on the first hand?

[Logan]

I'm calling bullshit on anyone who would fold that hand, as the first hand, of a tournament.

[sabotai]

I'm not sure how I would have played that. I probably would have just called the pre-flop raise to $600 instead of reraising. However, after that, with that board, I don't know how it would have unfolded. If he had raised all-in at some point after the flop, I don't know what I would have done.

[Barkeep49]

Hoops and I have been discussing this, and I think the range of hands here is far broader then just AA and KK. I think you have to at least expand it to AK and QQ.

Further, I would argue that for most of us dead money players you are looking at a pretty good situation, all things considered.

[Barkeep49]

Don't forget your are playing with people like this

All-In Called with 8-High
On a flop of 1075, Tim Rod bets $300 and his opponent raises to $600. Rod calls and the turn puts the 3 on the board. Rod again bets out with $1,500 and is again raised by his opponent to $4,000. Rod calls and the river puts the 3 on the board. Rod pushes all-in and his opponent immediately calls. Rod flips up KQ for a turned flush. His opponent says, "Do I have a straight flush? Oh, no I don't" as he shows 86 for 8-high.

I firmly believe narrowing the hands to just AA and KK is a real mistake.

[Vince]

I don't think that I would be able to lay it down, nor do I think that it can be called bad play, except in hindsight. As someone before mentioned (QuikSand?), if you put someone on the ONE hand that is ahead of you at the moment more often than not, you're not going to win many poker hands.

[Jas_lov]

Yeah, I think a lot of it depends who you are playing against. A pro certainly wouldn't put himself at risk on the 1st hand without AA because he knows he has an advantage at a table of non pros. If you're playing against someone who is there for a $200 satellite you could probably expand the starting requirements. But on the 1st hand you don't know the playing styles of anyone you've never played with before. I'd probably just call like sabotai said, but then you run into the J 10 2 board and then I'd probably go broke.

[Glengoyne]

My initial thought is that I think I might lose this hand later in a big tournament, but probably not on the first hand. Then second thought is that I'm not sure where I would have made the decision to stop. Maybe after having the raise to fifteen hundred re-raised. I'm just not sure I'd be able to get away from it with fifteen hundred in the pot.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Logan

I'm calling bullshit on anyone who would fold that hand, as the first hand, of a tournament.

I would 100% have folded that hand - simply from the point of view that risking an all in on the first hand of a tournament is too dangerous for me, then again I'm not a 'real' gambler me ....

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

I would 100% have folded that hand - simply from the point of view that risking an all in on the first hand of a tournament is too dangerous for me, then again I'm not a 'real' gambler me ....

With half of your chips already in the pot, and only one hand that could possibly beat you? Enjoy playing the rest of the tourney with that in your head.

[Jas_lov]

He probably means he'd throw it away after the 2nd reraise to $3000. With $8500 still left in chips you have more than enough to do some damage. Not saying that's what I would have done, but that's probably when he means he'd throw it away.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Jas_lov

He probably means he'd throw it away after the 2nd reraise to $3000. With $8500 still left in chips you have more than enough to do some damage. Not saying that's what I would have done, but that's probably when he means he'd throw it away.

Misread the initial post...thought the KK guy had half his chips in before AA raised it all-in.

I still wouldn't have folded.

[Toddzilla]

Deja Vu?

Sun Jul 30 16:47:00 PDT 2006
Chris Grigorian Loses a Monster Pot

The player in seat 1 at Chris Grigorian's table raises to $350. Grigorian re-raises to $1,050. His opponent raises again to $3,000 and Grigorian moves all-in for $24,000. His opponent calls with A-A. Grigorian is behind with K-K. No miracle King hits, and Grigorian is down to $4,100 in chips.

[JHandley]

If you'd fold KK on the first hand, then I'd think you'd have no business playing in the tournament to begin with. If the other guy has AA, then more power to him, but you might as well go home if you're not willing to gamble with KK.

The field is 8000+ players. A large number of which are already freerolling, got in with cheap online or live sats, and are just happy to be there. There is one hand that puts you in bad shape, one hand that puts you at a 2-1 favorite and the rest put you at a major favorite. You have no idea how loose, weak, or just plain bad this player is. But, if you can't play KK at the begining of the tournament, you will never be playing at the end of the tournament.

[albionmoonlight]

I agree with QS.

Odds of villain having some crazy reason to go all-in on the first hand of WSOP Main Event > Odds of villain having AA

[primelord]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I agree with QS.

Odds of villain having some crazy reason to go all-in on the first hand of WSOP Main Event > Odds of villain having AA

The only hole in this logic is that villan was not the one who ended up pushing. If you were actually looking to do this for a crazy reason and especially if you were doing it with a less than stellar hand I don't think the betting would go down like this. I think when Hero raised to $1,500 at that point villan would have just shoved.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by primelord

The only hole in this logic is that villan was not the one who ended up pushing. If you were actually looking to do this for a crazy reason and especially if you were doing it with a less than stellar hand I don't think the betting would go down like this. I think when Hero raised to $1,500 at that point villan would have just shoved.

Fair enough. I still would have pushed all-in here with KK, but I did have the betting order wrong in my head.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by JHandley

If you'd fold KK on the first hand, then I'd think you'd have no business playing in the tournament to begin with. If the other guy has AA, then more power to him, but you might as well go home if you're not willing to gamble with KK.

Probably right - which is why I'm not a professional gambler and only play for fun

Personally though a 2-1 odds bet isn't strong enough for me to risk my participation in a tournament on, I only do the whole 'all-in' thing in two circumstances - (1) I'm 90% positive I'm going to win (ie. Flops been done and I've a very strong hand at least 3 of a kind sort of thing), (2) I'm short-stacked and need to double up to survive.

Yeah I realise I'm not a 'true' gambler and most of you would probably take me to the cleaners easily ...

[primelord]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Fair enough. I still would have pushed all-in here with KK, but I did have the betting order wrong in my head.

I completely agree. I am just saying that based on the betting pattern it doesn't seem like he was actually trying to get all-in preflop himself. However there is enough of a chance that he does with a hand other than AA that the push is fine.

[Jas_lov]

Well, Rene Angelil did it...


Cardplayer.com Mon Jul 31 15:02:00 PDT 2006

Rene Angelil Makes A World Class Laydown
Rene Angelil raises preflop in early position. Another player in late position makes a big re-raise and Angelil instantly folds K-K face-up. The table is stunned and even more suprised to see his opponent turn over A-A. After making an almost impossible laydown, Angelil is down to $9,200.


If someone laid down KK to you, would you actually show them that they made a great laydown by turning over your AA?

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Jas_lov

Well, Rene Angelil did it...


Cardplayer.com Mon Jul 31 15:02:00 PDT 2006

Rene Angelil Makes A World Class Laydown
Rene Angelil raises preflop in early position. Another player in late position makes a big re-raise and Angelil instantly folds K-K face-up. The table is stunned and even more suprised to see his opponent turn over A-A. After making an almost impossible laydown, Angelil is down to $9,200.


If someone laid down KK to you, would you actually show them that they made a great laydown by turning over your AA?

One of two things:

1. The reporter embellished with the "instantly folds KK."
2. Raiser has has AA a couple times already, and had a major, obvious tell that Angelil picked up on.

I'm siding with #1, as I don't see how anyone would ever instantly fold that hand (unless they were a complete bitch who could be pushed around).

And to answer your question...no, I would never show a player that they made the correct call. I've never understood that strategy (although I'm sure it's benefits have been explained somewhere). The last thing you need is to show a person that they have a full read on you.

[hoopsguy]

And another one ...


Shortly afterwards, Hank Azaria raises to $600 in middle position. Pete "The Beat" Giordano, raises him to $1,600. When the action gets around to Azaria, he re-raises to $5,600. Giordano immediately goes all-in and has Azaria covered. Azaria has $2,900 left, and he asks Giordano if he has Aces. Giordano says he doesn't know, but that he would like Azaria to stick around for awhile. Azaria is torn on his decision. He already has about 2/3 of his chips in the middle, but he hesitates to make a decision. The cameras swarm around him, and he eventually folds the KK face up. Giordano tells him he made a good decision, and turns over the AA. Michael O'Deh, who is one table over, comes over to tell him what a great laydown he made. Someone tells O'Deh that even celebrities can play, considering Rene Angelil made the same laydown earlier in the day. Unfortunately, O'Deh doesn't know who Azaria is, and asks for his credits. Azaria doesn't seem to be in the mood, but he does a few voices from The Simpsons, including Chief Wiggum and Moe Sizlak.
The next two hands, Azaria takes down both pots and builds himself right back up to $5,000 in chips.

[primelord]

On the Angelil hand it would be nice if there was a more detailed report on the betting. Mucking KK to one re-raise preflop is incredibly weak tight. Like Logan said there has to be more to that one. Either that or Angelil is a giant weak tight nit who happened to be right this time.

[primelord]

I also don't like Azaria's fold. If he wanted to give himeself an opportunity to fold he should have made a smaller re-raise. At the point Giordano shoves Azaria is getting 4.8:1. At that point the damage is done. KK is just about a 4:1 dog to AA. So it is +ev for him to make this call even if he knows his opponent is holding AA. When you factor in the fact that it is possible he might be doing this with the other KK, QQ or less it is an absolute must call.

[Simms]

Interesting recap from Matt Maroon, who finished Day 1a with 83k in chips. In part:

The blinds would have been 150/300 with a 25 ante. It folded to me on the cutoff and I raised it to 1k with pocket kings. The small blind, Texas from the earlier hand, reraised it to 2500. He had about 25k in his stack at the time and I decided to just call. He was a tight enough player that I thought he would fold anything but aces to a reraise there, so my options were to reraise to 7k or so and then fold if he comes back over, or to just call and look at the flop, hoping to trap him then if he has something like QQ.
The flop came Td 9d 2c and he bet 5k, leaving 18k behind. I quickly pushed. He thought for a very long time, long enough that I would have called time on him if I weren't in the hand (I have always felt that calling for time should be left to the players who aren't involved). He asked me if I could beat aces and I smiled and shrugged, not believing that he actually had them as I thought that even he would have called with them right away. I guess I was wrong though, as he mucked them face up, saying “this isn't a ten million dollar hand”. He still had some chips left so I showed him the kings.