and for todays installment of coaches that should be bannished...

[saldana]

i heard about this on the Dan Patrick Show today...at first i didnt think it was a really big deal, because the part about them being 9 years old wasnt immediatly mentioned ( i came into the story in the middle)

Originally Posted by Ben De Voe, [email

[email protected][/email]]
If you’d like to coach 9- to 10-year- old Little League baseball next season you’ll have to submit to the following quiz

Question: If your team is winning by one run in the bottom half of the championship game with the tying run on base, and the other team’s best hitter at the plate, with a surviving cancer victim on deck - do you -

A) Challenge the hitter, because you’re trying to teach 9-year- olds how to overcome challenges and learn how to play baseball.

B) Take a walk to the pitcher’s mound and advise that your hurler be very careful with the next hitter and that a walk wouldn’t be the end of the world.

C) Scream across the diamond to intentionally walk the hitter because the cancer victim is too weak and frail to hit the ball. That way your team can get the easy win, and everyone will commend you for what a brilliant coach you are.

If you chose C, not only are you not allowed to coach, but you will now be forced to wear a dunce cap and suffer the wrath of the firehouse we have set up out back.

Unfortunately, the unbridled desire to win and live vicariously through kids playing games reared its ugly head in the 9- to 10 -year-old little league championship game at Mueller Park Friday night.

This story is a microcosm of the way our society places victory above all else, regardless of who gets hurt along the way.

It seems fitting that the two constituents would be the Red Sox and Yankees. Someone’s trying to teach us all a lesson.

The Yankees were the only undefeated team in the league, and had worked their tails off during the season. They were one out away from capping off a great year, and their coaches made a big mistake, openly pitching around the Sox’ best hitter to exploit the weaker Romney Oaks, who struck out to end the game. We’ll get to the Yanks coaches, but first we’ll take a look at Oaks.

Romney Oaks still believes he’s going to play in NBA, even though treatment for a malignant tumor doctors found on his head at the age of four stunted his growth and left him with a shunt in his head prohibiting him from playing contact sports.

While most children who have been through similar procedures have lost their gross motor skills, Romney can not only walk, but can run and play at a level comparable to his peers.

Over the past four years of chemotherapy, and radiation, while living in two different states, Romney has never been openly picked on by his peers. That’s because kids wouldn’t do that to each other. They know better. Too bad the same can’t be said of their parents.

“I defy anyone to say they wouldn’t have done the same thing,” says Yankees coach Bob Farley, who took the instruction of assistant coach Shaun Farr to intentionally walk a player to get to Oaks.

I defy Farley to come back to the real world, where winning a 9-year-old baseball tournament where most of the kids are more concerned with what treats they’ll have after the game isn’t life and death.

Air Heads might have been an appropriate treat by the way.

The incident left a bad taste in the mouth of many who were involved in a great season at Mueller Park.

Farley claims that he didn’t know anything was wrong with Oaks. Guess it was hard for him to notice the protective helmet Oaks wears in centerfield and that his swing looks more like a drag bunt. Farr can’t even claim that as an alibi. Not only does he know Oaks, he was his basketball coach in the fall.

Boy, it’s a good thing those Yankees had some advanced scouting so that they would know how to exploit the other kiddies’ weaknesses.

While Farley and Farr put in countless hours helping their kids develop this season, in one heated moment they were swept up in their own ambition and lost sight of what is truly important — that we teach our children proper principles.

Intentional walks are part of the game, yes, but was it right to magnify the weakness of one struggling youngster so that you could win a recreation little league? If you follow these men’s attitude of win at all costs, I guess it is.

What makes me sick is that there are apologists for these men’s actions. It’s a sad day if we as a community have become conditioned to the point where we’d rather win than teach our kids integrity and to lend a helping hand to those who are less fortunate.

Hopefully these coaches enjoy the trophy on their mantle, right next to their dunce caps.

futher note...the pitcher that was in the game at the time was upset enough that he had to pitch to Oaks that he refused to try out for the all star team the next day

[sovereignstar]

Some guy's article I found online? Perhaps if you find his viewpoint important enough to quote you should provide a link or some citation.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I caught the very tail end of this segment on Patrick's show today, had no idea what they were talking about.

The screaming across the diamond part? That's sound pretty damned crass.

But the tactical decision? You absolutely positively 100% walk the guy. The thing that takes this from high 90% to 100% is the phrase the other team’s best hitter at the plate. (I'm assuming that's an accurate description of the situation).

With the facts available that's the obvious move in any other game all season, with any other significantly weaker hitter up next. That's baseball, whether you're 5, 15, 25, or 75 in a beer & Geritol league.

[rowech]

If this is in fact what happened...just more and more shows how ahead of the curve Bad News Bears (the original) was.

Why in the world are kids being intentionally walked at 9 years of age? I'm sports obsessed like many of us are and it's getting sick how young we have these kids traveling, on select, teams, etc.

[rowech]

Sorry Jon...usually you and I see eye to ey but you don't do that in a non-select league at the age of 9. Select league? Okay. Kids are 12? Probably okay. Rec league 9 year olds? Those kids are 3rd and 4th graders.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

Some guy's article I found online? Perhaps if you find his viewpoint important enough to quote you should provide a link or some citation.

there sov, i fixed it just for you....nice to see the only thing you found of interest was the way i quoted the article....i didnt think it mattered since i was using it as a reference to the event, not a support of Bens opinions.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I caught the very tail end of this segment on Patrick's show today, had no idea what they were talking about.

The screaming across the diamond part? That's sound pretty damned crass.

But the tactical decision? You absolutely positively 100% walk the guy. The thing that takes this from high 90% to 100% is the phrase the other team’s best hitter at the plate. (I'm assuming that's an accurate description of the situation).

With the facts available that's the obvious move in any other game all season, with any other significantly weaker hitter up next. That's baseball, whether you're 5, 15, 25, or 75 in a beer & Geritol league.

it was an under 10, non-competitive, developmental leauge...the coaches arent even supposed to set lineups because they dont want to stigmatize the players...everyone plays, everyone hits....it was supposed to be about learning the game, not about winning at all costs...they are 9 years old for christs sake!

[sovereignstar]

Originally Posted by saldana

there sov, i fixed it just for you....nice to see the only thing you found of interest was the way i quoted the article....i didnt think it mattered since i was using it as a reference to the event, not a support of Bens opinions.

Don't get all pissy at me for wanting to know something about the person whose article/blog you just quoted.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by rowech

Why in the world are kids being intentionally walked at 9 years of age?

I specifically remember pitching around certain kids in my first year of Little League, which was at age 8. I also specifically remember in my first year in "A" league (age 9), laughing with other kids about an opposing coach who was too dumb to know to walk our best player.

[rowech]

Sorry Skydog....this is a rec league. Rec means for fun... If this league is a competitive, select, tryout situation, I'm cool with it...it's not. You pitch to the kids...flat out. My guess is if that team wasn't undefeated the coach pitches to him.

You're not talking pro athletes here. If that kid ends up dying for some reason, that 9 year old kid is going to live with the rest of his life replaying that strikeout of that kid over and over. (I wish the kid would have thought enough to walk him)

[saldana]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

I specifically remember pitching around certain kids in my first year of Little League, which was at age 8. I also specifically remember in my first year in "A" league (age 9), laughing with other kids about an opposing coach who was too dumb to know to walk our best player.

in my under 10 league, there were no such things as walks...if you took 4 balls, the ball got put on a tee and you got a free swing at it, but it was still a ball in play...once we got to actual Little League games, at 10-12, that was different, but if the league is supposed to teach people how to PLAY, not necessarily to WIN, i think this is abhorrent....not to mention the fact that in this particular case, it taught the Yankees that it is ok to take advantage of a disabled kid that will most likely not be able to play at a more competitive leve.

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by saldana

it was supposed to be about learning the game, not about winning at all costs...they are 9 years old for christs sake!

If that's the case then why were they holding a championship game?

[saldana]

Originally Posted by rowech

Sorry Skydog....this is a rec league. Rec means for fun... If this league is a competitive, select, tryout situation, I'm cool with it...it's not. You pitch to the kids...flat out. My guess is if that team wasn't undefeated the coach pitches to him.

You're not talking pro athletes here. If that kid ends up dying for some reason, that 9 year old kid is going to live with the rest of his life replaying that strikeout of that kid over and over. (I wish the kid would have thought enough to walk him)

when the count got to 2 strikes on him, he was standing at the plate crying...i would call that a psychological scar for both of those kids

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by rowech

Sorry Jon...usually you and I see eye to ey but you don't do that in a non-select league at the age of 9. Select league? Okay. Kids are 12? Probably okay. Rec league 9 year olds? Those kids are 3rd and 4th graders.

I don't give a shit if they're 6 y/o, the game is baseball & that's how it's played. Hell, I've seen a couple of kids I would have pitched around in T-Ball if there had been a way.

Again, let me make it clear that I find the yelling across the diamond that's described crass beyond description under the circumstances & pretty well indefensible (assuming the article is accurate, like I said, I only caught the tail end of the interview with the kid's dad today).

But to have not walked the opponent's best hitter in the scenario as I understand it would have been incredibly unfair to your own players and infinitely more unacceptable than the common baseball strategy employed here.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

I specifically remember pitching around certain kids in my first year of Little League, which was at age 8. I also specifically remember in my first year in "A" league (age 9), laughing with other kids about an opposing coach who was too dumb to know to walk our best player.

Same thing here, standard baseball strategy was employed (as well as it could be executed at least) in my first year of playing which would have been either 4 or 5 years old. I never played in any league that did otherwise, never coached in any league that did otherwise, and would be highly reluctant to have my kid within miles of a league that did otherwise.

[rowech]

And we wonder why our nation's kids are so messed up.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

If that's the case then why were they holding a championship game?

dan patrick brought this up as well, but none of the people he was talking to really had an answer (rick reilly and michael wilbon)...i dont know either, i know we didnt have one in my under 10 and no one cared, we played because we wanted to learn how to play...there were no tryouts, everyone got to play, everyone got to hit, and no one cared that there wasnt a champion at the end...we worried about that when we were 11

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by rowech

Sorry Skydog....this is a rec league. Rec means for fun... If this league is a competitive, select, tryout situation, I'm cool with it...it's not. You pitch to the kids...flat out. My guess is if that team wasn't undefeated the coach pitches to him.

OK. It said "Little League" at least twice in the article. Granted, it has been 25 years, so I don't know how it is done today, but I know that there were tryouts for Little League when I played. At age 8, you were put on a team. Tryouts started at age 9.

[Logan]

[Going straight to hell comment]

And Barry Bonds claims to have no protection in the lineup...

[/Going straight to hell comment]

[Ben E Lou]

Oh, and I'm not defending or attacking the coach's actions at all. If he truly yelled that across the diamond, then that's very bad. I'm merely saying that intentional walks at age 9 aren't surprising to me at all.

[Ben E Lou]

Oh, and I'm not defending or attacking the coach's actions at all. If he truly yelled that across the diamond, then that's very bad. I'm merely saying that intentional walks at age 9 aren't surprising to me at all.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Same thing here, standard baseball strategy was employed (as well as it could be executed at least) in my first year of playing which would have been either 4 or 5 years old. I never played in any league that did otherwise, never coached in any league that did otherwise, and would be highly reluctant to have my kid within miles of a league that did otherwise.

if that is the way the league is structured, and you know that when you put your kid in it, that is different IMO, but this was supposed to be a learning league....the coaches arent even allowed to structure their batting orders, which i guess is why the worst player followed the best player in this instance.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by rowech

Sorry Skydog....this is a rec league. Rec means for fun...

Not anywhere I've ever lived it wasn't.

"Rec league" was simply shorthand for a league administered by the local governmental recreation department, as opposed to a private Little League/Dizzy Dean/Babe Ruth/etc league.

The only "non-competitive" (i.e. not keeping score) league I've ever run across was one that the YMCA director proposed in the league where I coached a couple of summers ago ... and it was ultimately a scored league because they couldn't even come up with enough players interested to field two teams otherwise.

I know that they exist in some places, my minor quibble here is just with the distinction of "rec league" not always meaning the same thing in different places.

[sovereignstar]

Originally Posted by rowech

And we wonder why our nation's kids are so messed up.

This has nothing to do with Marilyn Manson.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

But to have not walked the opponent's best hitter in the scenario as I understand it would have been incredibly unfair to your own players and infinitely more unacceptable than the common baseball strategy employed here.

so it is unacceptable to teach your 9 year old players that to be the best, you have to beat the best, but it is acceptable to win at any cost, including taking advantage of a handicapped kid

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by saldana

... but this was supposed to be a learning league....the coaches arent even allowed to structure their batting orders, which i guess is why the worst player followed the best player in this instance.

Apparently like the follow-up discussion that I missed on the show, color me likewise confused about how an unstructured league ends up with a championship game.

Maybe it wasn't a "championship game" per se, but rather just the last game of a potentially undefeated season? Or maybe the league wasn't as unstructured as it has been described after all? Or any of a host of possibilities, but something about this story just doesn't add up to me at all at this point.

[illinifan999]

I support the intentional walking 100%.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by saldana

so it is unacceptable to teach your 9 year old players that to be the best, you have to beat the best, but it is acceptable to win at any cost, including taking advantage of a handicapped kid

You beat whoever is wearing the other uniform, that's the object of the game.

If this was indeed a championship game, presumably this was the 2nd best team in the league, i.e. the only remaining contender to the title "best in the league". In other words, it doesn't seem to be a case where the eventual winners handpicked a team of blind quadriplegics to play against, they can only play who ends up in the other dugout. And if the opponent puts the kid out there, damned if I'm treating him any different than anybody else on the team. That is insulting discrimination of the worst sort.

If she was wearing the other uni, I'd throw under my granny's chin if she was crowding the plate. And if she doesn't back off, she better be ready to pick herself up.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

If she was wearing the other uni, I'd throw under my granny's chin if she was crowding the plate. And if she doesn't back off, she better be ready to pick herself up.

remind me not to play in your family reunion wiffleball game

[vtbub]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You beat whoever is wearing the other uniform, that's the object of the game.

If she was wearing the other uni, I'd throw under my granny's chin if she was crowding the plate. And if she doesn't back off, she better be ready to pick herself up.

May I have your autograph, Mr. Clemens?

[molson]

It's fun to be competitive. That's what sissy leagues don't understand anymore. No matter how young you are, part of the fun of playing little league is that you're playing the same game as your heroes, using the same skills and strategies.

Trying to avoid hurt feelings at all costs is an awful child development strategy. We all have to deal with setbacks in our lives - in a small way, youth sports helps kids prepare for that in a relatively consequence-free environment.

I remember the one championship team I was on in youth sports. It was one of the geatest moments of my childhood, and it would never have happened, or had the same feeling of excitement if that particular league embraced the non-competitive nonsense that goes on in too many leagues today.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You beat whoever is wearing the other uniform, that's the object of the game.

If this was indeed a championship game, presumably this was the 2nd best team in the league, i.e. the only remaining contender to the title "best in the league". In other words, it doesn't seem to be a case where the eventual winners handpicked a team of blind quadriplegics to play against, they can only play who ends up in the other dugout. And if the opponent puts the kid out there, damned if I'm treating him any different than anybody else on the team. That is insulting discrimination of the worst sort.

If she was wearing the other uni, I'd throw under my granny's chin if she was crowding the plate. And if she doesn't back off, she better be ready to pick herself up.

Please don't ever have children. Cut your balls off now while you still have the chance.

Love,

The Human Race

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Please don't ever have children. Cut your balls off now while you still have the chance.
Love,
The Human Race

Too late.

But if you're ever in the neighborhood, be sure to drop by, I'd love to chat in person.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You beat whoever is wearing the other uniform, that's the object of the game.

If this was indeed a championship game, presumably this was the 2nd best team in the league, i.e. the only remaining contender to the title "best in the league". In other words, it doesn't seem to be a case where the eventual winners handpicked a team of blind quadriplegics to play against, they can only play who ends up in the other dugout. And if the opponent puts the kid out there, damned if I'm treating him any different than anybody else on the team. That is insulting discrimination of the worst sort.

If she was wearing the other uni, I'd throw under my granny's chin if she was crowding the plate. And if she doesn't back off, she better be ready to pick herself up.

Please don't ever have children. Cut your balls off now while you still have the chance. Also, don't adopt and keep all children away from you by at least a 10-foot radius

Love,

The Human Race

[saldana]

Originally Posted by molson

It's fun to be competitive. That's what sissy leagues don't understand anymore. No matter how young you are, part of the fun of playing little league is that you're playing the same game as your heroes, using the same skills and strategies.

Trying to avoid hurt feelings at all costs is an awful child development strategy. We all have to deal with setbacks in our lives - in a small way, youth sports helps kids prepare for that in a relatively consequence-free environment.

I remember the one championship team I was on in youth sports. It was one of the geatest moments of my childhood, and it would never have happened, or had the same feeling of excitement if that particular league embraced the non-competitive nonsense that goes on in too many leagues today.

i'm not saying competitive sports are a bad thing...i started playing soccer when i was 6 years old, baseball when i was 8, so i grew up in competitive sports.

my problem with this is that it was supposed to be a non competitive league, and the strategy involved here doesnt seem to gel with that mode of thinking.

let the competitiveness wait for a league that you have to try out for, where all the players arent equal, but they at least all meet a certain level of ability. if this were a year later, and these kids were playing full fledged little league, i wouldnt feel close to the same way i do about it now. i still wouldnt like it, but i could see some rationale to it...i have coached soccer youth teams, and no matter what my teams record was, or what the score of the game was, every player on my team got a chance to play, and if we were up, i pulled my scorers back to d-backs, not because i didnt want my team to win, but because sportsmanship is just as valuable as competitiveness.....sportsmanship has been overrun by competitiveness in youth sports, and this is the penultimate example

[RedKingGold]

Dola, sorry meant to add the wink face for sarcasm

[saldana]

dola, and if one of my kids were on a team and the coach did something like this, i would take my kid out of the game that second and never let them play for that guy again.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

I specifically remember pitching around certain kids in my first year of Little League, which was at age 8. I also specifically remember in my first year in "A" league (age 9), laughing with other kids about an opposing coach who was too dumb to know to walk our best player.

When I was eight, I came to the plate in the bottom of the last inning of a game with the bases loaded and two outs. I was quite the hitter then -- peaked a bit too early -- and I had raked a couple of balls hard against them already. The opposing coach goes out and calls his entire team out to a meeting. When the meeting breaks up, the entire infield is playing on the edge of the outfield grass and the outfielders were basically brought in to fill the gaps in the infield. I was eight, so it didn't occur to me to bunt to try and tie the game, I just tried to hit the ball as hard as I could as always. I ended up grounding out to first to end the game. Afterwards, the opposing team's coach came over and explained why he did what he did. I recovered -- although I still regret not bunting.

Point is, I'm not critical of the strategy, just the way that the adults acted. The could have handled it much better.

[oykib]

Why the hell is the cancer survivor the protection for the team's best hitter?

Yelling across the diamond is bad. But you absolutely pitch around the team's best hitter. I think you are teaching a poor lesson if you don't.

[JonInMiddleGA]

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:...s&ct=clnk&cd=4

According to Rick Reilly's column, this doesn't appear to be a non-competitive league, although it is one with modified rules.

This is a league where everybody gets to bat, there's a four-runs-per-inning max, and no stealing until the ball crosses the plate.

That last one has been pretty common for years now at this age level, because catcher's arms simply can't make the throw consistently, but even with max run rules, I'm not getting a sense that they aren't keeping score.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by oykib

Why the hell is the cancer survivor the protection for the team's best hitter?

Yelling across the diamond is bad. But you absolutely pitch around the team's best hitter. I think you are teaching a poor lesson if you don't.

please see post 22

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

I was eight, so it didn't occur to me to bunt to try and tie the game, I just tried to hit the ball as hard as I could as always.

Not your fault, good coaching would have pointed out the option to you.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:...s&ct=clnk&cd=4

According to Rick Reilly's column, this doesn't appear to be a non-competitive league, although it is one with modified rules.

This is a league where everybody gets to bat, there's a four-runs-per-inning max, and no stealing until the ball crosses the plate.

That last one has been pretty common for years now at this age level, because catcher's arms simply can't make the throw consistently, but even with max run rules, I'm not getting a sense that they aren't keeping score.

no one said they werent keeping score, but what about this line leaves any doubt about what kind of league this is.

Originally Posted by rick reilly's article

This is: Everybody bats, one-hour games. That means it's about fun. Period

thanks for posting that btw, i couldnt get to SI.com from work

[heybrad]

Just curious how far those who approve of the walk would go... If you all want to win the 9 year old rec title that bad, wouldn't you all have just cut him from your team to begin with? You want a title, right?

[Chief Rum]

I woulda beaned both hitters to save my pitcher's arm, and go after the last batter.

[molson]

Originally Posted by saldana

let the competitiveness wait for a league that you have to try out for, where all the players arent equal, but they at least all meet a certain level of ability. if this were a year later, and these kids were playing full fledged little league, i wouldnt feel close to the same way i do about it now.

Fair enough. I guess it wasn't entirely clear that this was a "non-competitve" league. But there's certaintly a mixed message when you have a championship game. I don't believe for a second that a typical 9 year old doesn't care about winning, as these kinds of stories always suggest. Throwing a physically challenged cancer survivor into that kind of environment, where his performance determines the outcome of the game, doesn't make a lot of sense.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by saldana

no one said they werent keeping score, but what about this line leaves any doubt about what kind of league this is.

I read that as Reilly's personal take, not neccessarily the league's structure.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by heybrad

Just curious how far those who approve of the walk would go... If you all want to win the 9 year old rec title that bad, wouldn't you all have just cut him from your team to begin with? You want a title, right?

In the majority of league's that I'm familiar with, cuts aren't an option at this age level, so it seems unlikely to have been an available choice.

[heybrad]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

In the majority of league's that I'm familiar with, cuts aren't an option at this age level, so it seems unlikely to have been an available choice.

Maybe that's because it's about developing kids and not winning. How are you developing your pitcher if you don't let him pitch to the top hitters. You're not helping him by giving him the easy way out.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by heybrad

Maybe that's because it's about developing kids and not winning.

Again, that wasn't the sole goal of any league I ever played in or coached in.

How are you developing your pitcher if you don't let hiim pitch to the top hitters.

I don't see anything that suggested they pitched around the best hitter for the entire game, it was situational. And based on the known facts the situation absolutely positively calls for the guy to be walked, anybody who knows the slightest thing at all about baseball knows that.