Poker: SnG Quiz

primelord · 08-12-2006, 12:42 AM

You are in a Party 10+1 Sit and Go tournament. There are nine out of the original ten players still remaining. It is the second level with blinds at 30/60 and you have 1,850 chips. You don't recognize any of the players at the table.

You are in MP with AKo. There is one early position limper and it is folded to you. You raise to 200. It is folded to the button who pushes all-in for 2,130 chips. It is folded back to you. Your action?

Feel free to post any resoning for you rplay below.

larrymcg421 · 08-12-2006, 12:50 AM

Easy fold. No need to defend a small pot by putting yourself all-in for what will likely be a coinflip or a huge dog. You'll have better opportunities later.

primelord · 08-12-2006, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Easy fold. No need to defend a small pot by putting yourself all-in for what will likely be a coinflip or a huge dog. You'll have better opportunities later.

It's not a small pot anymore. This pot alone now represents over 10% of all the chips in play. I am not saying I agree or disagree with your decision. Just pointing out that it is no longer a small pot.

larrymcg421 · 08-12-2006, 01:16 AM

I'm not talking about the pot including the all-in. That's not the consideration I make. $290 is in the pot before he moved in. Basically you're putting yourself all-in to defend that $290. I figure if he wants it so bad, he can have it.

Furthermore, I would consider my stats. I cash in about 43% of SNG's I play. In this situation I am 43-47% against most pocket pairs and dominated against AA or KK. Considering that winning will not guarantee I cash, but losing guarantees I definitely will not, I think this is an auto fold.

Jas_lov · 08-12-2006, 01:26 AM

I fold too because, like larry here, I'm fairly confident I can outplay these guys at a $10 sng in the long run. It's hard to put him on AA or KK since he pushed all in. So we're either in a coinflip or he has AQ or AJ and we have him dominated. I haven't played at party poker at all but I've heard the play is pretty bad for the most part. I really don't want to race for all my chips that early when I think I can easily cash if I wait for better situations.

larrymcg421 · 08-12-2006, 01:31 AM

Actually, in a $10 SNG, I think AA is likely here. Some of the donks get a little too excited when they see AA and auto push. But yeah, I wouldn't call even if I knew he had 77. And if he made the move with AQ or AJ, then you are very fortunate to be sitting at his table.

primelord · 08-12-2006, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I'm not talking about the pot including the all-in. That's not the consideration I make. $290 is in the pot before he moved in. Basically you're putting yourself all-in to defend that $290. I figure if he wants it so bad, he can have it.

You are absolutely not putting in your money to defend that 290. His bet is in the pot. You are not risking all of your chips to win 290. You are risking all of your chips to win 1,940. There is a monster difference there.

It's actually slightly more than that since there was a limper too. So you are risking your chips to win 2000. Again I am not saying this to say I support a call here. However ignoring the money he has already put in the pot is a mistake.

larrymcg421 · 08-12-2006, 01:51 AM

I think we're just in a game of semantics here. Yes you can win $2000, but your only defending $350 in dead money. This means you do not have very good odds. If there was more dead money in the pot, then it might be worth a call. I think I'd at least want 1.5:1 on my money in this situation. You are only getting 1.2:1 here. The only hands I would call with here are AA-QQ.

stevew · 08-12-2006, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Actually, in a $10 SNG, I think AA is likely here. Some of the donks get a little too excited when they see AA and auto push. But yeah, I wouldn't call even if I knew he had 77. And if he made the move with AQ or AJ, then you are very fortunate to be sitting at his table.

I would guess that he has a high pair, if you were going to go with the usual party style of play at that limit level. Maybe it's also just a collosal bluff, but at that point int the tourney you are most likely looking at a coinflip at best.

Generally playing "correct" poker at the low level and playing "cashing poker" are not the same thing. Which doesn't make the 2 mutually exclusive either though.

Although by my(probably wrong) calculations he took roughly 1:8 odds that he would have the best hand, and now you are getting something like 1.3/1(maybe a slight bit less) on your remaining money to call, you may have make this call in a technical sense if you are playing straight odds.

stevew · 08-12-2006, 02:12 AM

Eh, i can't figure out the odds correctly in my head this stage of the day, i think i may have them slightly reversed.

primelord · 08-12-2006, 02:49 AM

This is apparently an easier fold for all of you than I originally thought. Despite my argument with larry about whether this is a big pot or not (

), I agree that this is a fold. I folded this exact hand earlier tonight and three hands later watched a guy make a call in almost the exact same situation.

It just got me thinking that it is a call I see a lot of people make and I've seen FOFCers in the Squid tourney make. In the situation I gave above it is very close from an odds perspective. If you assume your opponent will do this with any pair and AK and AQs then you are about a 42% dog and you need to be better than 45% to justify a call.

I actually think the range of hands you will see is wider than this on average. A giant bet like that is screaming for you not to call. However I also think you need to see some actual evidence that your oppponent is willing to push a wider range before you start acting on it. GIven that you likely do have an edge on the relatively weak fields in these tournaments it is just far too much to risk this early. Apparently you all already knew that though. Well done.

k0ruptr · 08-12-2006, 02:54 AM

I call because its party, he most likely has AJo or something worse...lol

Mountain · 08-12-2006, 07:24 AM

You said it yourself when you had your sit n go strategic revelation, play very tight early in a sit n go and very aggressive when it hits around level 4. You can't win the tournament early but you certainly can lose it.

TroyF · 08-12-2006, 08:06 AM

Easiest poker question I've had in awhile.

Fold, fold, fold.

Really only two hands I'll push with and take a risk there. . . A/A, K/K. (I don't even like the Queens to be honest.

Fighter of Foo · 08-12-2006, 11:29 AM

In the article I linked below, the author looks at a very similar situation, though in his example you have a pair versus a known ace king, but the concept is the same.

We know with 99% certainty this guy is an idiot. The only question is how much of an idiot. If there's maybe a 10% chance of Ace-something else or total garbage, this is a call every time.

http://www.cardplayer.com/magazine/article/15093

sabotai · 08-12-2006, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k0ruptr

I call because its party, he most likely has AJo or something worse...lol

No kidding. I've seen people push with hands like KQo and KJo in this situation, and at pretty much any stage of any tourney. People will push with all kinds hands.

However, thinking like has gotten me into trouble.

Just because a lot of people do that doesn't mean this guy is. It's too early to get a read a solid read on him, so I'd fold.

Toddzilla · 08-12-2006, 01:07 PM

Definite fold - unless you have no confidence in your skillz.

I mean, if you've got a monster hand and think it's going to be a coin-flip, why bother? Don't you think you'll have better odds playing out the tournament?

If you stink, and 50-50 are the best odds you're going to see, then by all means make the call.

If you're one of the better players at the table, I gotta believe you've got better odds than that and are better off wearing them down over the course of the SnG.

Raven · 08-12-2006, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by primelord

You are in MP with AKo.

Call me stupid, but what is MP?

Maple Leafs · 08-12-2006, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raven

Call me stupid, but what is MP?

Middle position. So you have a few players to act after you every street. It's not a great spot to be, but better than early position.

Also, you're stupid.

Vince · 08-13-2006, 12:43 PM

I think I fold as well, though I'd probably agonize over it for a little while.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TroyF

Really only two hands I'll push with and take a risk there. . . A/A, K/K. (I don't even like the Queens to be honest.

I think that I'd call with Aces through 10's in this case.

Lathum · 08-13-2006, 01:00 PM

I put I would call in this spot. I have seen so many people try to double up early in a low level sit and go with a wide range of hands including AQ, KQ and even J10 suited... IMO sometimes you need to throw all the theory and odds out the window.

TroyF · 08-13-2006, 11:07 PM

Figured I'd add this here. (BTW: Primelord, your PM box is full)

I decided to try to put into practice some of the SnG strategies I've been reading lately. Primelord has a nice arcticle at 2+9 and I bought Scott Fischman's book "Online Ace" which has a detailed strategy for SnG's that's very similar.

I didn't want to blow a ton of money, so I tested with the $3 trubo SnG's at Poker Stars. I know it's a low limit, I know there are bad players. . . but here are my stats from last night/today:

10 tournies entered - $34.00 spent.

1rst - 3 times
2nd - 1 time
3rd - 2 times
4th - 2 times
8th - 2 times

Dollars won - $66

Net - +$32.00

On one of the 8th place finishes, I just donked out. It was my first tourney and I misplayed three hands I should have never been involved with in the first place. I was forced to push early and deserved what I got.

The second 8th, I had my money in with A/K and a rainbow of 5/9/K A guy pushed, I called. He flipped over K/8. And got an 8 on the river to get me. I can live with that.

Fischman talks about how when you get to 4th, you should simply start pushing. He says that gives you a better chance to win in the long run. I agree, but up to a point. I think you have to be able to adjust your strategy when the situation arises. In one of my 3rd place finishes, there were four players left and the leader had 75%+ of the total chips. I had a small stack, but there was one player there with under 500 chips who kept hanging around. I'm sitting in third with 1400. I saw no reason to randomly push when I could either wait for a big hand or until they busted out.

Still, a great experience. I'm going to play the smaller SnG's this week. I head to Utah and Idaho the following week and then I hope to move up a level and see how it works out.

For those new to the game who want a low risk strategy for seeing some hands, you could do worse than the $3 turbos at PS.

View Poll Results: Your action?
Call	3	10.34%
Fold	26	89.66%
Voters: 29. You may not vote on this poll

08-12-2006, 12:50 AM	#2
larrymcg421 Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Georgia	Easy fold. No need to defend a small pot by putting yourself all-in for what will likely be a coinflip or a huge dog. You'll have better opportunities later. __________________ Top 10 Songs of the Year 1955-Present (1976 Added) Franchise Portfolio Draft Winner Fictional Character Draft Winner Television Family Draft Winner Build Your Own Hollywood Studio Draft Winner

08-12-2006, 01:16 AM	#4
larrymcg421 Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Georgia	I'm not talking about the pot including the all-in. That's not the consideration I make. $290 is in the pot before he moved in. Basically you're putting yourself all-in to defend that $290. I figure if he wants it so bad, he can have it. Furthermore, I would consider my stats. I cash in about 43% of SNG's I play. In this situation I am 43-47% against most pocket pairs and dominated against AA or KK. Considering that winning will not guarantee I cash, but losing guarantees I definitely will not, I think this is an auto fold. __________________ Top 10 Songs of the Year 1955-Present (1976 Added) Franchise Portfolio Draft Winner Fictional Character Draft Winner Television Family Draft Winner Build Your Own Hollywood Studio Draft Winner

08-12-2006, 01:31 AM	#6
larrymcg421 Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Georgia	Actually, in a $10 SNG, I think AA is likely here. Some of the donks get a little too excited when they see AA and auto push. But yeah, I wouldn't call even if I knew he had 77. And if he made the move with AQ or AJ, then you are very fortunate to be sitting at his table. __________________ Top 10 Songs of the Year 1955-Present (1976 Added) Franchise Portfolio Draft Winner Fictional Character Draft Winner Television Family Draft Winner Build Your Own Hollywood Studio Draft Winner

08-12-2006, 01:51 AM	#8
larrymcg421 Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Georgia	I think we're just in a game of semantics here. Yes you can win $2000, but your only defending $350 in dead money. This means you do not have very good odds. If there was more dead money in the pot, then it might be worth a call. I think I'd at least want 1.5:1 on my money in this situation. You are only getting 1.2:1 here. The only hands I would call with here are AA-QQ. __________________ Top 10 Songs of the Year 1955-Present (1976 Added) Franchise Portfolio Draft Winner Fictional Character Draft Winner Television Family Draft Winner Build Your Own Hollywood Studio Draft Winner

08-12-2006, 01:26 AM	#5
Jas_lov College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000	I fold too because, like larry here, I'm fairly confident I can outplay these guys at a $10 sng in the long run. It's hard to put him on AA or KK since he pushed all in. So we're either in a coinflip or he has AQ or AJ and we have him dominated. I haven't played at party poker at all but I've heard the play is pretty bad for the most part. I really don't want to race for all my chips that early when I think I can easily cash if I wait for better situations.

08-12-2006, 02:12 AM	#10
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	Eh, i can't figure out the odds correctly in my head this stage of the day, i think i may have them slightly reversed.

08-12-2006, 02:49 AM	#11
primelord Pro Rookie Join Date: Oct 2000	This is apparently an easier fold for all of you than I originally thought. Despite my argument with larry about whether this is a big pot or not (), I agree that this is a fold. I folded this exact hand earlier tonight and three hands later watched a guy make a call in almost the exact same situation. It just got me thinking that it is a call I see a lot of people make and I've seen FOFCers in the Squid tourney make. In the situation I gave above it is very close from an odds perspective. If you assume your opponent will do this with any pair and AK and AQs then you are about a 42% dog and you need to be better than 45% to justify a call. I actually think the range of hands you will see is wider than this on average. A giant bet like that is screaming for you not to call. However I also think you need to see some actual evidence that your oppponent is willing to push a wider range before you start acting on it. GIven that you likely do have an edge on the relatively weak fields in these tournaments it is just far too much to risk this early. Apparently you all already knew that though. Well done.

08-12-2006, 02:54 AM	#12
k0ruptr Pro Starter Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Las Vegas	I call because its party, he most likely has AJo or something worse...lol __________________ Xbox Live Gamertag: k0ruptr My Favorite Teams : Chicago White Sox - Carolina Panthers - Orlando Magic - Phoenix Suns - Anaheim Ducks - Hawaii Warriors - Oregon Ducks

08-12-2006, 07:24 AM	#13
Mountain Mascot Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Columbia, S.C.	You said it yourself when you had your sit n go strategic revelation, play very tight early in a sit n go and very aggressive when it hits around level 4. You can't win the tournament early but you certainly can lose it.

08-12-2006, 08:06 AM	#14
TroyF Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	Easiest poker question I've had in awhile. Fold, fold, fold. Really only two hands I'll push with and take a risk there. . . A/A, K/K. (I don't even like the Queens to be honest.

08-12-2006, 11:29 AM	#15
Fighter of Foo College Prospect Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Boston, MA	In the article I linked below, the author looks at a very similar situation, though in his example you have a pair versus a known ace king, but the concept is the same. We know with 99% certainty this guy is an idiot. The only question is how much of an idiot. If there's maybe a 10% chance of Ace-something else or total garbage, this is a call every time. http://www.cardplayer.com/magazine/article/15093 Last edited by Fighter of Foo : 08-12-2006 at 11:31 AM.

08-12-2006, 01:07 PM	#17
Toddzilla Pro Starter Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Burke, VA	Definite fold - unless you have no confidence in your skillz. I mean, if you've got a monster hand and think it's going to be a coin-flip, why bother? Don't you think you'll have better odds playing out the tournament? If you stink, and 50-50 are the best odds you're going to see, then by all means make the call. If you're one of the better players at the table, I gotta believe you've got better odds than that and are better off wearing them down over the course of the SnG.

08-13-2006, 01:00 PM	#21
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	I put I would call in this spot. I have seen so many people try to double up early in a low level sit and go with a wide range of hands including AQ, KQ and even J10 suited... IMO sometimes you need to throw all the theory and odds out the window.

08-13-2006, 11:07 PM	#22
TroyF Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	Figured I'd add this here. (BTW: Primelord, your PM box is full) I decided to try to put into practice some of the SnG strategies I've been reading lately. Primelord has a nice arcticle at 2+9 and I bought Scott Fischman's book "Online Ace" which has a detailed strategy for SnG's that's very similar. I didn't want to blow a ton of money, so I tested with the $3 trubo SnG's at Poker Stars. I know it's a low limit, I know there are bad players. . . but here are my stats from last night/today: 10 tournies entered - $34.00 spent. 1rst - 3 times 2nd - 1 time 3rd - 2 times 4th - 2 times 8th - 2 times Dollars won - $66 Net - +$32.00 On one of the 8th place finishes, I just donked out. It was my first tourney and I misplayed three hands I should have never been involved with in the first place. I was forced to push early and deserved what I got. The second 8th, I had my money in with A/K and a rainbow of 5/9/K A guy pushed, I called. He flipped over K/8. And got an 8 on the river to get me. I can live with that. Fischman talks about how when you get to 4th, you should simply start pushing. He says that gives you a better chance to win in the long run. I agree, but up to a point. I think you have to be able to adjust your strategy when the situation arises. In one of my 3rd place finishes, there were four players left and the leader had 75%+ of the total chips. I had a small stack, but there was one player there with under 500 chips who kept hanging around. I'm sitting in third with 1400. I saw no reason to randomly push when I could either wait for a big hand or until they busted out. Still, a great experience. I'm going to play the smaller SnG's this week. I head to Utah and Idaho the following week and then I hope to move up a level and see how it works out. For those new to the game who want a low risk strategy for seeing some hands, you could do worse than the $3 turbos at PS. Last edited by TroyF : 08-13-2006 at 11:09 PM.

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