FFS (Free Football Sim): Online or Offline?

aran · 08-27-2006, 06:27 PM

As some of you may remember, I started designing a football sim a year or so ago. I got most of the sim engine design done, and I'd like to start coding it. This is where I need some input from you guys.

What would you want to see more: an online, html-based "browser game" or an offline (with multiplayer league capabilities, of course) traditional app?

I'm planning on inculding detailed html and xml export features for the app version (if I end up going down that route), which will most likely be written in C++ using wxwidgets for GUI.

The "browser game" will involve PHP and mySQL. The presentation of the game will no doubt be much nicer, will take less time for me to code and you can access it from anywhere.

The traditional app will sim games faster and be accessable even if you're offline.

Either approach will lead to a fully open-source project.

RPI-Fan · 08-27-2006, 06:29 PM

For me, offline is better because then each league would control the pace on their own. The downfall of HTML-based sims is the slow pace, IMO.

aran · 08-27-2006, 06:32 PM

The league sim schedules will be fully customizable regardless of what version I end up making.

RPI-Fan · 08-27-2006, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aran

The league sim schedules will be fully customizable regardless of what version I end up making.

Ok, nice to see that that won't be an issue.

I still say traditional app for the reason that presentation seems much better. To me, even the best-designed browser games seem very clunky to navigate. Even poor-interface normal games are much more straightforward, to me.

aran · 08-27-2006, 06:42 PM

As far as useability and clunkiness go, the issue will really be whether or not you have javascript enabled. I can do plenty of crazy things with javascript to cut down the number of new pages you have to load. I know a good deal about html and css, so I can probably make some nice looking and easy to navigate pages, regardless.

Another key will be cutting down the number of database calls. I intend to use a mySQl database in either format. If I go browser-based, I have to be very careful about the number of queries I make due to the volume of people using the same DB at once. In a traditional app format I do not have to worry as much, because only the player on the local machine will be screwing the the DB.

Galaril · 08-27-2006, 07:23 PM

I would prefer an application. I just hate it when agame makes me connect to the internet like steam for me to play it. This would of course be when playing against the AI.

aran · 08-27-2006, 07:32 PM

I'm talking mulitplayer leagues ALWAYS for the browser-based format. It'd be entirely multiplayer much like Monster Bowl is. You can create teams and leagues with your friends are just make a team and get thrown into a random league.

Stevebsfan · 08-28-2006, 01:16 AM

I've tossed around the idea of writing a sim a little while ago, and this question was a big question.

Personally, I like the online version, however what was mentioned above (the clunkiness) was the big problem. I know there is plenty of .js tools and other things you can do to make it a really nice, interactive page, but you have to really plan it out in order to make it work.

Everyone hates waiting when playing games, and if you play just normal browser based games like people may think you're making (similar to the online version of that baseball game - can't place the name right now, not ootp though - baseball mogul?), then you're going to have trouble. But, not everyone wants to (or can) play completely java based games like you'd see on pogo.

Based on what you were saying in this thread, I think I understand the direction you're going with .js, few page changes, and as few calls to the DB as possible, then you may be on to something. If you can't do it though, it's best to just go off-line.

For example, (remembering the baseball one) if see an html based list with your batting order. A dropdown next to each for the order, then another drop down for the position, and you have to set that, push 'submit' and watch the changes take place, that's clunky. Especially when you have to submit like 5 times to get a lineup that looks right to you.

If you have a list of your batting order, and you can just click and drag the name from 1st to 5th in the order, then have a little mini drop down next to each name for the position, and when you make the changes they stick until you push the 'submit' button once, that's far less clunky.

Anyway, hope this makes sense.

Emiliano · 08-28-2006, 02:57 AM

An online football sim with would be interesting to me.

mrsimperless · 08-28-2006, 03:21 AM

.Net is always a possibility if you're going online only. You get some nifty controls that can do some of the things mentioned by stevebsfan above, but your users don't need the .net runtime installed - just on your web server. Of course, you may be limiting your end users to IE.

My company's app is web based and uses .htc controls and web services to create more of a thick app experience by taking an approach similar to that of AJAX. I'd definitely say that if you're going to go the web-based route to do some research on AJAX and web services and try to handle things that way. Much less clunky (if designed right of course) IMO.

I might be tempted to contribute to your project as well if you're interested. Just drop me a PM. Or since you're going the open source route why not make it a community-based effort? Get the whole FOFC community involved in functional design, etc.

FBPro · 08-28-2006, 09:02 AM

I'm much less likely to take part or use a program that is online or browser based only. If it has those options or abilities then fine. But not exclusively.

fantastic flying froggies · 08-28-2006, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emiliano

An online football sim with would be interesting to me.

Ditto.

Honestly, for offline play, there already is FOF, who needs anything else? (well, except for a new and vastly improved yet compatible FOF6 that is!

)

Riggins44 · 08-28-2006, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrsimperless

Of course, you may be limiting your end users to IE.

I haven't seen any browser issues with the latest .net stuff. I think this was more of a problem back in the vbscript days.

21C · 08-28-2006, 08:36 PM

I think you have to change the name of the sim. When I saw FFS, I initially thought it stood for "For Fuck's Sake".

aran · 09-01-2006, 09:03 PM

The name is up for change as well as pretty much everything about the game.

I'm leaning towards the offline app. It'd probably require a bit less learning for me, and I'd prefer to be able to sim at my own pace and not rely on other people to keep my game going. AI is going to be a big issue, though.

I can always port my sim engine to an online setting once I've got it coded (most likely in C++ and Java), anyway.

Reasons why you'd play my game over the current incarnation of FOF:
1.) Better, more intuitive online league support.
2.) Easier Gameplanning.
3.) FREE
4.) Open Source
5.) Better, more intuitive UI
6.) More stats.
7.) Cross platform
8.) CUSTOMIZABLE! (Not maximum-customizability :P)

lighthousekeeper · 09-02-2006, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aran

I intend to use a mySQl database in either format.

How do you plan on distributing MySQL if it is an offline app?

Dutch · 09-02-2006, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aran

The name is up for change as well as pretty much everything about the game.

I'm leaning towards the offline app. It'd probably require a bit less learning for me, and I'd prefer to be able to sim at my own pace and not rely on other people to keep my game going. AI is going to be a big issue, though.

I can always port my sim engine to an online setting once I've got it coded (most likely in C++ and Java), anyway.

Reasons why you'd play my game over the current incarnation of FOF:
1.) Better, more intuitive online league support.
2.) Easier Gameplanning.
3.) FREE
4.) Open Source
5.) Better, more intuitive UI
6.) More stats.
7.) Cross platform
8.) CUSTOMIZABLE! (Not maximum-customizability :P)

This is what you get to deal with when competing against FOF. Of course, I'm so jaded I use FOF ratings for everything.

Sim Engine - VERY GOOD
Game Stat Realism - VERY GOOD
Player Development - EXCELLENT
MP Gameplay - GOOD
Gameplanning - AVERAGE
Price - VERY GOOD
User Interface - GOOD
Stats Almanac - EXCELLENT
Moddability (3rd party) - FAIR
Customizable (In-game) - POOR

Dutch · 09-02-2006, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

How do you plan on distributing MySQL if it is an offline app?

I'm guessing the league has to remain on a server somewhere regardless.

aran · 09-02-2006, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

How do you plan on distributing MySQL if it is an offline app?

Looking again, it's not actually mySQL that I'll be using. It's a portable, open source SQL database called hsqldb.

View Poll Results: What type of game should FFS be?
"Browser game."	13	38.24%
Traditional app.	19	55.88%
It doesn't matter to me.	2	5.88%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

08-27-2006, 06:29 PM	#2
RPI-Fan Pro Starter Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Troy, NY	For me, offline is better because then each league would control the pace on their own. The downfall of HTML-based sims is the slow pace, IMO. __________________ Quis custodiets ipsos custodes?

08-27-2006, 07:32 PM	#7
aran High School Varsity Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New Jersey, USA	I'm talking mulitplayer leagues ALWAYS for the browser-based format. It'd be entirely multiplayer much like Monster Bowl is. You can create teams and leagues with your friends are just make a team and get thrown into a random league. Last edited by aran : 08-27-2006 at 07:32 PM.

08-28-2006, 01:16 AM	#8
Stevebsfan n00b Join Date: Jun 2004	I've tossed around the idea of writing a sim a little while ago, and this question was a big question. Personally, I like the online version, however what was mentioned above (the clunkiness) was the big problem. I know there is plenty of .js tools and other things you can do to make it a really nice, interactive page, but you have to really plan it out in order to make it work. Everyone hates waiting when playing games, and if you play just normal browser based games like people may think you're making (similar to the online version of that baseball game - can't place the name right now, not ootp though - baseball mogul?), then you're going to have trouble. But, not everyone wants to (or can) play completely java based games like you'd see on pogo. Based on what you were saying in this thread, I think I understand the direction you're going with .js, few page changes, and as few calls to the DB as possible, then you may be on to something. If you can't do it though, it's best to just go off-line. For example, (remembering the baseball one) if see an html based list with your batting order. A dropdown next to each for the order, then another drop down for the position, and you have to set that, push 'submit' and watch the changes take place, that's clunky. Especially when you have to submit like 5 times to get a lineup that looks right to you. If you have a list of your batting order, and you can just click and drag the name from 1st to 5th in the order, then have a little mini drop down next to each name for the position, and when you make the changes they stick until you push the 'submit' button once, that's far less clunky. Anyway, hope this makes sense. __________________ Houston GM - IFL

08-28-2006, 02:57 AM	#9
Emiliano College Prospect Join Date: May 2004 Location: Nuremberg, Germany	An online football sim with would be interesting to me. __________________ Xbox Live&PSN: Emiliano81 GM of the Rome Gladiators in the WOOF

08-27-2006, 06:32 PM	#3
aran High School Varsity Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New Jersey, USA	The league sim schedules will be fully customizable regardless of what version I end up making.

08-27-2006, 06:42 PM	#5
aran High School Varsity Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New Jersey, USA	As far as useability and clunkiness go, the issue will really be whether or not you have javascript enabled. I can do plenty of crazy things with javascript to cut down the number of new pages you have to load. I know a good deal about html and css, so I can probably make some nice looking and easy to navigate pages, regardless. Another key will be cutting down the number of database calls. I intend to use a mySQl database in either format. If I go browser-based, I have to be very careful about the number of queries I make due to the volume of people using the same DB at once. In a traditional app format I do not have to worry as much, because only the player on the local machine will be screwing the the DB.

08-27-2006, 07:23 PM	#6
Galaril Pro Starter Join Date: Jan 2004	I would prefer an application. I just hate it when agame makes me connect to the internet like steam for me to play it. This would of course be when playing against the AI.

08-28-2006, 03:21 AM	#10
mrsimperless College Prospect Join Date: Apr 2003	.Net is always a possibility if you're going online only. You get some nifty controls that can do some of the things mentioned by stevebsfan above, but your users don't need the .net runtime installed - just on your web server. Of course, you may be limiting your end users to IE. My company's app is web based and uses .htc controls and web services to create more of a thick app experience by taking an approach similar to that of AJAX. I'd definitely say that if you're going to go the web-based route to do some research on AJAX and web services and try to handle things that way. Much less clunky (if designed right of course) IMO. I might be tempted to contribute to your project as well if you're interested. Just drop me a PM. Or since you're going the open source route why not make it a community-based effort? Get the whole FOFC community involved in functional design, etc. __________________ "All I know is that smart women are hot. Susan Polgar beat me in 24 moves in a simultaneous exhbition. I slept with the scoresheet under my pillow." Off some dude's web site.

08-28-2006, 09:02 AM	#11
FBPro College Starter Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: SE	I'm much less likely to take part or use a program that is online or browser based only. If it has those options or abilities then fine. But not exclusively. __________________ GM RayCo Raiders-est. 2004-2012 Charter member of the IHOF-RayCo GM GM Tennessee Titans PFL 2011-2014 GM Tennessee Titans FOWL 2020-2025

08-28-2006, 08:36 PM	#14
21C College Prospect Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Newcastle, Australia	I think you have to change the name of the sim. When I saw FFS, I initially thought it stood for "For Fuck's Sake".

09-01-2006, 09:03 PM	#15
aran High School Varsity Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New Jersey, USA	The name is up for change as well as pretty much everything about the game. I'm leaning towards the offline app. It'd probably require a bit less learning for me, and I'd prefer to be able to sim at my own pace and not rely on other people to keep my game going. AI is going to be a big issue, though. I can always port my sim engine to an online setting once I've got it coded (most likely in C++ and Java), anyway. Reasons why you'd play my game over the current incarnation of FOF: 1.) Better, more intuitive online league support. 2.) Easier Gameplanning. 3.) FREE 4.) Open Source 5.) Better, more intuitive UI 6.) More stats. 7.) Cross platform 8.) CUSTOMIZABLE! (Not maximum-customizability :P) Last edited by aran : 09-01-2006 at 09:04 PM.

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