Derek Jeter

[DeToxRox]

He's 5-5 tonight.

102 of 116 playoff games Jeter has been on base.

Is there anyone who's been a better performer in October ever? I know people here don't believe in clutch or whatever which is fine, but honestly, his numbers in October are unprecedented. Most overrated player in the MLB is the biggest joke I've ever heard.

I'm sure people are sick of a Yanks love fest but this is outrageous. He's in a class of his own.

[Joe]

he's mostly said to be overrated because he doesn't deserve the golden gloves that he wins. he's rewarded in that fashion for his bat.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Joe

he's mostly said to be overrated because he doesn't deserve the golden gloves that he wins. he's rewarded in that fashion for his bat.

I'd say most Gold Glove winners are though.

[st.cronin]

If Derek Jeter's not a first ballot hall of famer, nobody is. And I HATE the Yankees.

[Schmidty]

Derek Jeter is from the same city that I'm from (Kalamazoo, MI), and went to the same elementary/middle school I went to - Lincoln (apparantly), although he was a year ahead of me and I have no idea if I ever met him or saw him, so I am a huge fan.

[Deattribution]

While I'm sure A-rod was happy for Jeter, you know part of him had to be thinking 'aww man, shit.'

[JS19]

I hate the Yankees as well, but I like to think I know a great ballplayer when I see one, and like DeTox said, he really is in a class by himself when it comes to playing in October.

[Neuqua]

He's no Garrett Wolfe!!!!

[MalcPow]

Originally Posted by Joe

he's mostly said to be overrated because he doesn't deserve the golden gloves that he wins. he's rewarded in that fashion for his bat.

I think this is mostly right. If you've ever seen him play though you can understand why people end up giving him gold gloves. He's statistically pretty average (or below) defensively, but he plays very gracefully. If he's coming in on a chopper or a ball up the middle he never stops, sets his feet, and throws, it's always this fluid continuation where he's throwing on the move or across his body or something. In a lot of ways he makes otherwise routine plays look difficult, not because he's screwing things up or he's all over the place, but because he performs them in a way that only somebody with his athleticism, balance, and body control could perform them. You basically walk away saying, ok, so statistically the guy doesn't get to nearly as many balls as somebody else, but... that's a tremendous athlete. So you tip your hat and give him a gold glove. He's overrated in a concrete, absolute way, but he's also unique, so he gets the benefit of being something special.

[saldana]

huge yankee hater here also, but there isnt a player i can think of in the last 25 years that i would rather have at the plate if i need 1 hit to win a game....and that goes double in october...he may not have the clutch walk off home run profile of david ortiz, but jeter gets it done everytime those assclowns need a hit.

[st.cronin]

He's no Tom Brady.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by DeToxRoxDVHStyle

He's 5-5 tonight.

102 of 116 playoff games Jeter has been on base.

Is there anyone who's been a better performer in October ever? I know people here don't believe in clutch or whatever which is fine, but honestly, his numbers in October are unprecedented. Most overrated player in the MLB is the biggest joke I've ever heard.

I'm sure people are sick of a Yanks love fest but this is outrageous. He's in a class of his own.

He's a good player, sure. But the fact is, until last night, his October batting average and OBP in October were slightly less than career average.

Again, he's a really good player, but I think him lifting his game to a new level is merely his comfort in playing in the postseason. Heck, he's played 115 games there.

I'll take small sample sizes into account, but he's not an automatic, either (as witnessed by his 6 for 30 against Boston in 2004 and 4 for 27 against Arizona in 2001). Of course, you could ask ARod for references to those statistics.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

I'll take small sample sizes into account, but he's not an automatic, either (as witnessed by his 6 for 30 against Boston in 2004 and 4 for 27 against Arizona in 2001). Of course, you could ask ARod for references to those statistics.

And that's the thing: last night during the obligatory story about ARod's struggles, there was no mention of how ARod carried the Yankees against the Twins in the divisional round a couple of years ago. Same with the "forgotten" discussion of Jeter's failures.

Jeter's a great player and comes up with some timely hits in the postseason, but he hasn't been so much better in the post-season that I can really see the difference. It's just that his 5-5 night will always be remembered, and if he went 1-14 in the next 4 games, no one would bring that up in making the case that he wasn't clutch. Even back against the Red Sox in 2004, it was "the team stopped hitting" - until earlier this year, when ARod's stats from that series got segregated and it became all about his failure.

The one thing I don't like about Jeter is his attitude toward ARod. I just think a supposed "team leader" should be willing to put aside some comments made over 5 years earlier to try to help a teammate deal with his struggles, or come to his defense like he did an admitted steroid user. That says something about Jeter, and it's not too flattering.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

He's no Tom Brady.

He has more rings than tom Brady.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

The one thing I don't like about Jeter is his attitude toward ARod. I just think a supposed "team leader" should be willing to put aside some comments made over 5 years earlier to try to help a teammate deal with his struggles, or come to his defense like he did an admitted steroid user. That says something about Jeter, and it's not too flattering.

That has always bothered me about Jeter. I mean A-Rod was a better defensive and offensive SS when the Yanks acquired him, but didn't say a word when he was moved to 3B. He said all the right things and has never complained about it. It seems that Jeter perhaps knows that A-Rod is the better SS overall and feels threatened by it. That's the only way I can explain it. If he can come to the defense of Giambi, why not A-Rod?

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

And that's the thing: last night during the obligatory story about ARod's struggles, there was no mention of how ARod carried the Yankees against the Twins in the divisional round a couple of years ago. Same with the "forgotten" discussion of Jeter's failures.

Jeter's a great player and comes up with some timely hits in the postseason, but he hasn't been so much better in the post-season that I can really see the difference. It's just that his 5-5 night will always be remembered, and if he went 1-14 in the next 4 games, no one would bring that up in making the case that he wasn't clutch. Even back against the Red Sox in 2004, it was "the team stopped hitting" - until earlier this year, when ARod's stats from that series got segregated and it became all about his failure.

The one thing I don't like about Jeter is his attitude toward ARod. I just think a supposed "team leader" should be willing to put aside some comments made over 5 years earlier to try to help a teammate deal with his struggles, or come to his defense like he did an admitted steroid user. That says something about Jeter, and it's not too flattering.

What he said.

[Ksyrup]

I don't really recall what ARod said about Jeter, but I guess it was back when he was a free agent with Seattle? Whatever it was, Jeter has never forgiven him for it. And while that doesn't bother me if ARod's still with the Rangers, once the guy becomes a teammate you deal with it and move on, for the benefit of the team. And he clearly hasn't done that.

I guess it was the SI story that referred to Jeter's history of holding grudges against people, to the point where, when he was dating Mariah Carey, she did something that upset him so much that he cut off their relationship that moment and never spoke to her again. I had never heard this before, but apparently being "Jetered" is now slang in NY for completely cutting off a relationship.

[Anthony]

Arod made a comment regarding Jeter's salary, how if Jeter was making all that money then ARod had to be making more (more or less).

[ChiMatt]

He was the captain of the team that had the biggest choke job in sports history. So he has that going for him, which is nice.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by ChiMatt

He was the captain of the team that had the biggest choke job in sports history. So he has that going for him, which is nice.

Hahahahahaha. My inner Red Sox fan loves you.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by DeToxRoxDVHStyle

He's 5-5 tonight.

102 of 116 playoff games Jeter has been on base.

Is there anyone who's been a better performer in October ever? I know people here don't believe in clutch or whatever which is fine, but honestly, his numbers in October are unprecedented. Most overrated player in the MLB is the biggest joke I've ever heard.

I'm sure people are sick of a Yanks love fest but this is outrageous. He's in a class of his own.

Except of course that his postseason career numbers aren't that special.

As of 2005:

Jeter career: .317/.388/.463
Jeter PS: .307/.379/.463

So please, enough already. You may have conditioned to believe he's some sort of clutch god, but look at the facts once in a while.

More fun - in an admittedly smaller sample:

Alex Rodriguez career: .305/.386/.573
PS: .305/.393/.534

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Except of course that his postseason career numbers aren't that special.

As of 2005:

Jeter career: .317/.388/.463
Jeter PS: .307/.379/.463

So please, enough already. You may have conditioned to believe he's some sort of clutch god, but look at the facts once in a while.

More fun - in an admittedly smaller sample:

Alex Rodriguez career: .305/.386/.573
PS: .305/.393/.534

Come on, crappy, you got to let those people live in their fantasy world and not confuse them with facts. His number are UNPRECEDENTED, didn't you hear? And the best performer in October EVER!!! Nevermind looking up anything or knowing that baseball existed before 1990, that's besides the point.

[Young Drachma]

He so clutch.

Sorry, just echoing what we'll hear for the next month regardless of what he does.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Except of course that his postseason career numbers aren't that special.

As of 2005:

Jeter career: .317/.388/.463
Jeter PS: .307/.379/.463

So please, enough already. You may have conditioned to believe he's some sort of clutch god, but look at the facts once in a while.

More fun - in an admittedly smaller sample:

Alex Rodriguez career: .305/.386/.573
PS: .305/.393/.534

How about situational averages? Those stats really mean nothing without context.

Regardless of what the stats say, having watched too many Yankees-Red Sox match-ups over the years, no Yankee worries me more when they're at-bat than Jeter. That smug bastard. Then maybe Sheffield, Williams when he was good. A-Rod only worries me when they are up or down by 5 or more runs or someone is trying to tag him.

[rkmsuf]

manlove

[bulletsponge]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Come on, crappy, you got to let those people live in their fantasy world and not confuse them with facts. His number are UNPRECEDENTED, didn't you hear? And the best performer in October EVER!!! Nevermind looking up anything or knowing that baseball existed before 1990, that's besides the point.

if Jeter walked up to you would you drop your pants and bend over so he can have his way with you?

[Fidatelo]

Everyone listing his regular season numbers vs postseason is forgetting a large piece of the equation: quality of the opposing pitcher. In the post-season you are generally facing above-average to all-star quality pitching at almost every at-bat. The fact that Jeter's numbers in the post-season are equal to his regular season numbers tells me he steps it up at least a bit, no?

[rkmsuf]

I can't believe men are fighting over Derek Jeter.


Oooh, oooh pick me, pick me.

[Toddzilla]

Jeter blew off Lil' Jimmy Norden, so booooooooo Jeter.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

Everyone listing his regular season numbers vs postseason is forgetting a large piece of the equation: quality of the opposing pitcher. In the post-season you are generally facing above-average to all-star quality pitching at almost every at-bat. The fact that Jeter's numbers in the post-season are equal to his regular season numbers tells me he steps it up at least a bit, no?

Then I guess, based on the ARod regular season/post-season stats quoted above, the same applies to him, no?


Alex Rodriguez career: .305/.386/.573
PS: .305/.393/.534

[CraigSca]

Even more so, as ARod's average is EQUAL to his seasonal average, not 10 points below, like Jeter.

[CraigSca]

I tell ya who defines clutch: Mark Lemke. The little guy batted .025 points HIGHER than his career average in 232 career post season atbats!

[Logan]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Even more so, as ARod's average is EQUAL to his seasonal average, not 10 points below, like Jeter.

Sorry, but when you're quoting an average that, despite being 10 points below his regular season averge, is STILL .307, you lose the argument.

[heybrad]

Originally Posted by Logan

Sorry, but when you're quoting an average that, despite being 10 points below his regular season averge, is STILL .307, you lose the argument.

So that makes him the greatest ever and his career unprecedented? Isn't that what's being argued in this thread?

[Logan]

Originally Posted by heybrad

So that makes him the greatest ever and his career unprecedented? Isn't that what's being argued in this thread?

No. It doesn't imply that his numbers aren't special, as Craig originally stated. Reading comprehension.

Edit: hey brad!

[Subby]

The guy is amazing. The fact that he put up those numbers over that many postseason games is impressive...and it isn't like he plays first base or leftfield. He hits this well while playing one of the more demanding defensive positions on the field.

[Logan]

The stat nerds can have all the players with the highest VORP or win shares or whatever you want to call it. I'll take Jeter and have him be the anchor on my winning club.

[Maple Leafs]

He's good, and also had the good fortune to play on a powerhouse team during the first era with three playoff rounds, which means he should hold many hits, games and at-bats records by the time he's done.

But come on, unprecedented? There are a ton of guys who have been better in the post-season than Jeter. The sample sizes are smaller, but if you're going to only compare him to guys with similar sample sizes then he basically only needs to beat Bernie Williams.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Logan

The stat nerds can have all the players with the highest VORP or win shares or whatever you want to call it. I'll take Jeter and have him be the anchor on my winning club.

Yes, those of us who like facts instead of hyperbole are the "stats nerds." We need more John Kruk's and Tim McCarver types.

I should have listened to Buck..

[molson]

Originally Posted by Logan

The stat nerds can have all the players with the highest VORP or win shares or whatever you want to call it. I'll take Jeter and have him be the anchor on my winning club.

That's the thing, the Jeter overhype is based on anecdotal evidence - we remember countless big hits in the playoffs. The thing is, Ray Durham or Barry Larkin would have had countless big playoff hits if they was fortunate enough to play in 116 postseason games.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Yes, those of us who like facts instead of hyperbole are the "stats nerds." We need more John Kruk's and Tim McCarver types.

I should have listened to Buck..

I'm sorry, but it does mean something else when a player puts up the stats Jeter does over the course of 116 postseason games. The more you play, the more the numbers level out. It's a lot easier to hit .320 over a 16 game postseason than a 116 game postseason. By the logic shown here, Carlos Beltran is the greatest postseason batter ever (please Carlos, keep it up). Some on here are knocking Jeter because he only hit .307. That's ridiculous. He's done it in high-pressure games, against the best competition, in the number of games that is equivalent to 3/4ths of a full season.

Originally Posted by molson

That's the thing, the Jeter overhype is based on anecdotal evidence - we remember countless big hits in the playoffs. The thing is, Ray Durham or Barry Larkin would have had countless big playoff hits if they was fortunate enough to play in 116 postseason games.

Geez...didn't know you were able to see into the future. We should call you jbmagic.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Logan

Some on here are knocking Jeter because he only hit .307.

You have totally missed the crux of the argument. They aren't knocking Jeter for hitting .307, they are questioning his ability to 'elevate his game in the playoffs' if his playoff numbers are lower than his regular season numbers (which is not the case for everyone).

The more you play, the more the numbers level out.

Problem is that Jeter was being held up as a "clutch" player back in the late 90s, when he had a good deal less than 116 playoff games, not just today.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

You have totally missed the crux of the argument. They aren't knocking Jeter for hitting .307, they are questioning his ability to 'elevate his game in the playoffs' if his playoff numbers are lower than his regular season numbers (which is not the case for everyone).

But why does he need to elevate his game, if his normal (or 10 points lower) game is enough to excel and lead his team to victory?

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Logan

But why does he need to elevate his game, if his normal (or 10 points lower) game is enough to excel and lead his team to victory?

He doesn't, unless you want to hold him up as the great clutch player of all time with unprecedented post-season success.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

How about situational averages? Those stats really mean nothing without context.

But there is context to be had here. When losing 3 or 4 games out of 5 or 7 sends you home, every playoff at bat is crucial. Not only that but I suspect that if you defined a blowout with some sort of artificial ceiling (5 runs, 10 runs, whatever), there are a much lower percentage in the postseason because scoring in general is down.

SI

[st.cronin]

He's no Marty Barrett.

[Maple Leafs]

By the way, five-for-five with a HR is pretty impressive, but I find it odd that when A-Rod has a big game and the team wins easily everyone says "typical, he never comes through in the close games". But when Jeter does it, he's a hero. I thought hitting a HR in the last inning of a blowout was what we were all supposed to hate A-Rod for?

[k0ruptr]

He's no Joe Carter...

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Logan

But why does he need to elevate his game, if his normal (or 10 points lower) game is enough to excel and lead his team to victory?

'Cause the argument made is that he elevates his game in the playoffs, which is why he is so 'clutch'.

[CraigSca]

I don't get it. With Damon on first and no one out in the first inning, Mr. Clutch does this:

D Jeter bunt popped out to catcher.

Then, with men on first and second and 2 out in the second inning he does this:

D Jeter grounded into fielder's choice to shortstop, R Cano out at second.

He doubles with no one on in the 4th...

Then, he strikes out in the 7th.

Isn't Mr. Clutch supposed to elevate his game and not leave 3 men on base in the postseason?!